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      02-13-2020, 10:31 PM   #155
BMWM3TS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlievee View Post
You’ve incorrectly understood. I said I would save a bit more and do the mains as well. That is relating to the money I would be putting aside. I would rather put together money and do both mains and rod bearings together. That way, there is economy in doing both while the engine is out (essentially paying for the engine to be pulled out once, to do both). You’re actually the one putting words in my mouth, as I never intended to correlate my statement to the amount of work required.



Let me break this down for you… It can be inferred that you are saying the wear isn’t the significant cause of the failure.

1. There is wear on the main bearings that look the same as the rod bearing wear (evident)
2. You are saying the rod bearings have wear that is causing failures (according to you)
3. LOGIC - Is it not reasonable to deduce that the wear shown on the main bearings should also be causing failures? (since the wear on the rod bearings are “significant premature wear”, then the mains also have “significant premature wear”, since they look the same!)

Now you are saying…
1. There is wear on the main bearings that look the same as the rod bearing wear (evident)
2. The wear on the main bearings aren’t of concern because there are other conditions the rod bearings experience (according to you)
3. LOGIC - Is it not reasonable to infer that since the mains show wear that appears to be the same as the rod bearings, and there other factors affecting the rod bearings which (according to you) will result in failure, then by elimination the other factors are in fact of greater significance to causing the failure than the wear? (Logically inferred according to your statements)



Go look at any engine tear down which shows photos of the mains. The mains show almost the exact same wear as the rod bearings each time. Make a list of that please, since it seems you like making lists.

I just Googled it and linked any post that came up, so here's another:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2349

That means nothing… Did you forget that greater than 99% of engines do not fail. So majority of engines wouldn’t have failed with or without a bearing change! It seems that more engines with a rod bearings change result in failure than I’d be comfortable with. I’m sure you have read this in numerous other threads on this topic on this forum, because I sure have.

Exactly my point! But don’t forget, unless you tear down the engine to determine the root cause of the failure, it’s more than likely that a main failure will have believed to have been a rod bearing failure.



Refer to steps of inference above… you just proved the point… not so “significant” then is it?



In your opinion.



Clearance is only a theory. Do people who make bearings know more than the people who made the engine?

The clearance theory in my opinion is disproved as; M Sport didn’t change clearances designs, and also the case where one person replaced his bearings with OEM coated ones and it showed improved wear.



I’m not twisting your words. I understand the evidence, and I have read the papers by King and Clevite. I just choose not to get into a technical discussion because you’re not an expert, and nor am I. Dunning-Kruger effect, my friend, don’t be a victim.

You’re free to do what you want, I won’t stop you. Not really sure why you’re getting so riled up tho…

See you in other threads? I see you’re very active in other rod bearings threads. I’m still making my way through reading them, but I’ll have something to add in due time.
So many variables but for me I'm a numbers guy and circa 1% Google based failure rates and probably less on lci years has me self insuring and will have me crossing my fingfingersers at night before I hit the pillow worrying about a potential bang. Reckon with an average of 3000 k's a year I'll take the risk and not bat an eyelid. But what happens if it goes bang and what about the stress and dollars. Well thats just a slam dunk blower project in terms of bang for buck and then it definetly will be a keeper for the long haul ( what are e90 m3s going to worth next decade? Let's face it, these cars are not that quick even slightly tweaked and low down torque its lacking. What's the premium for having your rod bearings done at least once on resale next decade?

Last edited by BMWM3TS; 02-13-2020 at 10:36 PM..
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      02-14-2020, 03:35 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Oh, I meant to post this earlier.

The 1st photo is a rare case or S65 OEM bearings coming out good, followed by how they typically look. Along with some chat about it from an engine builder.
I'd be interested to know what % of m3s that had the rod bearings grenade motors had at least 1 litre of non factory branded 10W 60 oil or castrol tws edge 10W60 touch the rod bearings prior to the motor going bang. In terms of numbers I reckon that number would be at the opposite end of circa 1%.
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      02-14-2020, 06:24 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM3TS View Post
So many variables but for me I'm a numbers guy and circa 1% Google based failure rates and probably less on lci years has me self insuring and will have me crossing my fingfingersers at night before I hit the pillow worrying about a potential bang. Reckon with an average of 3000 k's a year I'll take the risk and not bat an eyelid. But what happens if it goes bang and what about the stress and dollars. Well thats just a slam dunk blower project in terms of bang for buck and then it definetly will be a keeper for the long haul ( what are e90 m3s going to worth next decade? Let's face it, these cars are not that quick even slightly tweaked and low down torque its lacking. What's the premium for having your rod bearings done at least once on resale next decade?
Exactly. You have more chance of dying in your lifetime of driving than you do getting your engine to fail statistically speaking.

These engines only seem to be getting cheaper on the second hand market as more people write them off. Its madness to me that people will pay to do the rod bearings when a replacement engine only costs 3-4 times the rod bearing replacement.

Last edited by Charlievee; 02-14-2020 at 09:01 PM..
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      02-15-2020, 04:56 PM   #158
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I would point out, upfront cost of Engine is only part of the total cost of replacement for most normal owners...labor + labor. I doubt these engines, even used, will ever be considered “cheap” either. It’s not a ford barra engine right. And we keep going back to “used” engines. If there is catastrophic failure, for the reasons being discussed, who would go to all the trouble of dropping in a new donk without touching bearings? Dunno. Used engine + refresh maintenance + install costs. Not gonna be cheap....not in my opinion anyways. Not sure where this circa 1% failure stat is coming from either? Not everyone posts their engine misery on google. Given this - Likely more failures than we are aware of. Anyway....each to their own. Respect everyone has their view. Still think where there is smoke, there is fire. Too much noise around the issue to totally ignore it.
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      02-15-2020, 11:34 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
I would point out, upfront cost of Engine is only part of the total cost of replacement for most normal owners...labor + labor. I doubt these engines, even used, will ever be considered “cheap” either. It’s not a ford barra engine right. And we keep going back to “used” engines. If there is catastrophic failure, for the reasons being discussed, who would go to all the trouble of dropping in a new donk without touching bearings? Dunno. Used engine + refresh maintenance + install costs. Not gonna be cheap....not in my opinion anyways. Not sure where this circa 1% failure stat is coming from either? Not everyone posts their engine misery on google. Given this - Likely more failures than we are aware of. Anyway....each to their own. Respect everyone has their view. Still think where there is smoke, there is fire. Too much noise around the issue to totally ignore it.
There's also the fact that when you go to sell it your car has had a junkyard engine put in it. That would certainly put me right off a potential purchase.

I did mine as soon as I could get it booked in after purchase out of an abundance of caution at SouthernBM (along with engine mounts). They said they were the best bearings they'd ever pulled from an S65 (mine were done around 100k), but I'm still glad I did it.
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      02-16-2020, 01:28 AM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
I would point out, upfront cost of Engine is only part of the total cost of replacement for most normal owners...labor + labor. I doubt these engines, even used, will ever be considered “cheap” either. It’s not a ford barra engine right. And we keep going back to “used” engines. If there is catastrophic failure, for the reasons being discussed, who would go to all the trouble of dropping in a new donk without touching bearings? Dunno. Used engine + refresh maintenance + install costs. Not gonna be cheap....not in my opinion anyways. Not sure where this circa 1% failure stat is coming from either? Not everyone posts their engine misery on google. Given this - Likely more failures than we are aware of. Anyway....each to their own. Respect everyone has their view. Still think where there is smoke, there is fire. Too much noise around the issue to totally ignore it.
Yes, didn't include labour or rebuild costs. I was only using the value of an equivalent second hand replacement engine as a reference against the cost of doing rod bearings alone. I havent done the diligence on the cost of a drive in and out rebuild replacement, so don't know that for certain.

They have been trending down (they were used 25k about 5 years ago) but will ultimately come down to supply and demand, time will tell. Time usually results in more write off vehicles increasing the supply which will drive prices down. Insurance premium on this car is ridiculous due to the number of write offs. Goes up each year despite dropping in market value.

The 1% seems to be a reasonable and widely accepted estimate of the known and estimated failures over the total number or cars produced. Considering the actual failures known against the number of active members on these boards, the rate is fairly low, and this is without taking into account all the other cars produced in total.

It doesn't seem the demand on the engines particularly high as the ones on ebay have been there for months. I've also never seen these cars being sold with blown engines, so its probably reasonable to assume the occurence of failures is very low.

The biggest giveaway probably is that BMW never addressed it over 7 years, if it was truly a widespread issue. Sales and demand for this vehicle during that period also unaffected. Particularly if it was a simple as a rod bearing replacement.

To give a different perspective. Let's say 4k seems to be the going rate for the replacement. Hypothetically, say 100 people pay an insurance premium at 4k each, there's 400k in the pot. For the sake of simplicity, say it costs 20k for a second hand engine with bearing replaced and installed. The pot can afford 20 engines. That's 20% of the insured. Considering the bearing replacement doesnt even guarantee eliminating the risk of failure, to me that demonstrates poor value.

Anyways, agreed; each to their own. If it helps you sleep at night, definitely do it. The value comes in the form of your mental health. I'm a numbers guy that makes calculated bets. There's an inherent risk with all things in life, but risks (to me) should be calculated and managed where it can be. This just happens to be a risk that comes with owning this car, a risk I can personally accept.
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      02-17-2020, 02:18 AM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlievee View Post

The biggest giveaway probably is that BMW never addressed it over 7 years, if it was truly a widespread issue. Sales and demand for this vehicle during that period also unaffected. Particularly if it was a simple as a rod bearing replacement.

You seem like informed guy, so I am a little surprised you would think BMW not addressing an issue is the smoking gun in this much discussed topic?

Also sales unaffected? By what measure exactly? Not sure about that comment either.

Confucius say: If tree falls in forest, and there is no one close to hear it fall....did it make a sound?

BMW say: Bad clearances, difficult to prove, engine life reduced, but not all fail, many fail when out of warranty. Did we make a mistake?

BMW not owning the issue - adds little weight to the argument. Given car manufacturers attitudes historically (audi RS carbon issue, VW dieselgate, ford focus tranny issues) - certainly is not evidence there is NO problem.

Plenty of evidence to indicate the contrary though. We all have seen the unusual wear. The inconsistencies. Even you admit potential 1% failure. Although we can all agree the number is a google guess.

Enough evidence out there to show that "something is going on". Only thing that cannot be properly validated is the real percentages of failure.

Much like S65 m3 sales being "unaffected"..... I'll take you to task on that as the effect on the sales number is impossible to validate. Maybe they would have sold more without the rumor of bad bearing clearances? We will never know.

Same as the real numbers of failure - we_just_don't_know. Given you are a numbers man, then even you will need to admit many of the failures simply would NOT have been documented.

Manufacturers like BMW will take position on known issues based on risk assessment, cost analysis, potential damage to reputation etc. We all know this to be true.

They take a long position betting against failures in warranty and also against the ability for anyone to make BMW accountable for them. Like you are doing, they take a measured gamble. I gotta say, for them, the odds are stacked very differently though.

Based on what you say, maybe you are really taking the low risk bet. Dunno. That said, I am honestly not sure following "the house" aka BMW with this bet is the wisest move.

Anyways....time will tell right?

'nuff said about it now from me I reckon.

Peace out. All the best with your m3 people - what ever you choose to do with your bearings! ; )
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      02-17-2020, 05:37 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
You seem like informed guy, so I am a little surprised you would think BMW not addressing an issue is the smoking gun in this much discussed topic?

Also sales unaffected? By what measure exactly? Not sure about that comment either.
7 years is a long time to produce a car with what you're suggesting is a critical flaw in its engine design. A flaw that would have been picked up early on. They have recalled in the past cars with rod bearing issues and costly high pressure fuel pump issues. Makes no sense they don't for the E92 M3 if there was an actual issue.

You know you can look up sales and production figures for these cars? Over 65,000 units in total. Compared to sales mrket trends of other vehicles and makes in the same time period, I can say with confidence; sales unaffected to any perceived rod bearing issue. Take it as it is, or I'll leave you to do the diligence on that statement. BMW also have a long product lifecycles (7 years) because they are not typical of the life cycle phases of normal products and often achieve best sales results in the last year or 2 of its production life. Which is the case with the E92 M3. This validates the comment on sales unaffected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Confucius say: If tree falls in forest, and there is no one close to hear it fall....did it make a sound?

BMW say: Bad clearances, difficult to prove, engine life reduced, but not all fail, many fail when out of warranty. Did we make a mistake?
I don't get that analogy here. Also it didn't come from Confucius but rather its origins from philosopher George Berkely. It's a philosophical question that raises thoughts about observation and perception. An analogy that's been previously used in this thread but in a more relevant context. Not sure how to respond... but there is no evidence to suggest engine life is reduced. Rather the contrary with current age of vehicles not experiencing failures. All of those which are well well out warranty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
BMW not owning the issue - adds little weight to the argument. Given car manufacturers attitudes historically (audi RS carbon issue, VW dieselgate, ford focus tranny issues) - certainly is not evidence there is NO problem.
Im not familiar with the Audi RS Carbon issue, but carbon build up is a known problem direct injected engines. It's not specific to any particular make or model. Walnut blasting is just routine maintenance as part of direct injected engines.

VW knew from the get go they were being dodgy. So not relevant.

I dont know about the Ford issue either, but generally Ford models have shorter life cycles so any issues get buried with the model. BMW have longer life cycles and their strategy on marketing/sales is growth over the period of product life achieving best sales towards the end of the life cycle. They will not leave gaping issues (if it were one) unaddressed as it would affect this strategy. If there was an issue, they would amortize or capitalise the costs of the recalls and pay this debt over the remaining sales across the life of the product. Well, that's what I'd do if I was BMW anyway. Leaving it unaddressed is not a way to achieve sales growth over the products life cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Plenty of evidence to indicate the contrary though. We all have seen the unusual wear. The inconsistencies. Even you admit potential 1% failure. Although we can all agree the number is a google guess.
190 recorded failures over 65,000 units equates to less than 0.3%.

Take into fudge factor for numbers unreported to bring failure to circa 1%. Its reasonable.

Note also this does not take into account actual failures not from rod bearings failures but due to spontaneous failure such as contamination, blocked oil feed, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Enough evidence out there to show that "something is going on". Only thing that cannot be properly validated is the real percentages of failure.
I mean not really, I haven't seen enough evidence anywhere to be honest. It's all conjecture. Unless you can direct me to where I can review more evidence?

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Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Much like S65 m3 sales being "unaffected"..... I'll take you to task on that as the effect on the sales number is impossible to validate. Maybe they would have sold more without the rumor of bad bearing clearances? We will never know.
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Same as the real numbers of failure - we_just_don't_know. Given you are a numbers man, then even you will need to admit many of the failures simply would NOT have been documented.
Agreed it's a guess. No one knows for certain. Could be less could be more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Manufacturers like BMW will take position on known issues based on risk assessment, cost analysis, potential damage to reputation etc. We all know this to be true.

They take a long position betting against failures in warranty and also against the ability for anyone to make BMW accountable for them. Like you are doing, they take a measured gamble. I gotta say, for them, the odds are stacked very differently though.
Refer above.

We don't know for certain it's true, I previously mentioned they could do that if it was a decision on recalls based on cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Based on what you say, maybe you are really taking the low risk bet. Dunno. That said, I am honestly not sure following "the house" aka BMW with this bet is the wisest move.

Anyways....time will tell right?

'nuff said about it now from me I reckon.

Peace out. All the best with your m3 people - what ever you choose to do with your bearings! ; )
That I can agree, time will tell. Peace man. As with you, enjoy the ride!

Good job btw with the reply. I enjoyed your references back to my others posts (though a bit misconstrued in the application, still very fun to read ).
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      02-17-2020, 07:31 PM   #163
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Was not gonna bite, but for the record - I was joking with the Confucius thing btw. Glad you researched the origins of the quote though....not sure you got the point....

I love cars, but yeah - I have very little faith that the manufacturers have my best interests at heart. Clearly you have a better attitude towards them than I do.

I like buying things, they likey selling things - I get that. Capitalism. I'm hooked-in for the ride...clearly....I own an M3.

Manufacturers "fixing" things, without getting paid, "admitting fault"....yeah...they "likey" not so much.

10 sec google search...

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyot...ry?id=22972214

I would point out - some of these guys were also dragged kicking and screaming by the govt to be more "proactive" in enforcing takata air bags recalls also.....not politely pushed....more like shoved by the government into more forceful action.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...-recall-117402

Not exactly super motivated to correct problems - even when lives were at stake.
BMW was one of the better one's in this space, but still.....

Anyways, I only point these things out to highlight my suspicion regarding BMW and their inaction is not exactly "unfounded".

When you take manufacturers historical attitudes and behaviour into account, my personal attitude towards BMW on this bearing issue and them avoiding taking ownership - is not unreasonable.

BMW not saying anything about the bearings......does not mean much in the scheme of things - not to me anyway.

Anyway....

"Numbers" do say something - I agree. Numbers do not lie....when the source is accurate.

There is under a 1% S65 failure rate attributed to S65 bearings. Yep, yep. OK. These are legitimately recorded and audited numbers right?

Recorded stats on failures.....in this case - does it mean much?
Numbers seem a little murky to me.

Undocumented failures. You want to hang your hat on 1% total - that is fine also. You can do that. Failures could really be any number though.

On top of this, none of those "documented" failure numbers take into account the "avoided failures".

Given BE bearings for S65's are regularly SOLD OUT, maybe....just maybe....quite a number of failures have been avoided?

Is there a number we could pin on that?

Like I said....who knows for sure right.

Regardless of your opinion on the numbers, which 100% you are entitled to btw - I think the consensus out there is that is now a mandatory service item.

Even if you are right and the bearings are fine - M3's without the work done, will be worth less.

Numbers and subjective opinion aside - the market has already decided that.
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      02-18-2020, 03:33 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Was not gonna bite, but for the record - I was joking with the Confucius thing btw. Glad you researched the origins of the quote though....not sure you got the point....
Lol It's quite a famous philosophical question that I'm familiar with. Your analogy sort of irrelevant to the philosophical idea the question is about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
I love cars, but yeah - I have very little faith that the manufacturers have my best interests at heart. Clearly you have a better attitude towards them than I do.

I like buying things, they likey selling things - I get that. Capitalism. I'm hooked-in for the ride...clearly....I own an M3.

Manufacturers "fixing" things, without getting paid, "admitting fault"....yeah...they "likey" not so much.

10 sec google search...

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyot...ry?id=22972214

I would point out - some of these guys were also dragged kicking and screaming by the govt to be more "proactive" in enforcing takata air bags recalls also.....not politely pushed....more like shoved by the government into more forceful action.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...-recall-117402

Not exactly super motivated to correct problems - even when lives were at stake.
BMW was one of the better one's in this space, but still.....

Anyways, I only point these things out to highlight my suspicion regarding BMW and their inaction is not exactly "unfounded".

When you take manufacturers historical attitudes and behaviour into account, my personal attitude towards BMW on this bearing issue and them avoiding taking ownership -

BMW not saying anything about the bearings......does not mean much in the scheme of things - not to me anyway.
Lol, Ok. I take your point but don't agree. It's a matter of opinion here. You could be right, you could be wrong. Organisation with a strong brand reputation do go to extreme measures to protect it. I work for a top 50 brand in the world. I have an idea of the importance of integrity in business, and what controls and compliance measures are put in place to protect the corporations brand. At my place of work, integrity comes before profits. It's driven from the highest levels and a key pillar to our core values.

Edit: I just read the articles you posted. 2 comments.
1. Toyota... just wow, and very disappointing. I definitely see your point here.
2. Car makers have no liability other than what is mandated by governments. Their supply contracts will have an indemnity clause that releases them from this type of liability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
"Numbers" do say something - I agree. Numbers do not lie....when the source is accurate.

There is under a 1% S65 failure rate attributed to S65 bearings. Yep, yep. OK. These are legitimately recorded and audited numbers right?

Recorded stats on failures.....in this case - does it mean much?
Numbers seem a little murky to me.

Undocumented failures. You want to hang your hat on 1% total - that is fine also. You can do that. Failures could really be any number though.

On top of this, none of those "documented" failure numbers take into account the "avoided failures".

Given BE bearings for S65's are regularly SOLD OUT, maybe....just maybe....quite a number of failures have been avoided?

Is there a number we could pin on that?

Like I said....who knows for sure right.

Regardless of your opinion on the numbers, which 100% you are entitled to btw - I think the consensus out there is that is now a mandatory service item.

Even if you are right and the bearings are fine - M3's without the work done, will be worth less.

Numbers and subjective opinion aside - the market has already decided that.
Legitimately recorded and audited? Lol I have no idea what that means... 190 is the figure for known failures across the boards. Assimilator1 created a list and reviewed each for confirmed failures (deansbimmer added a few to top the total at 190). I mean, credit to Assimilator1 he's put in the time to research and compiling of what data is available.

So known failures over total vehicles produced is 0.3%. Bear in mind this is in aggregate till the present date.

I think tripling that figure (factor of 3) is pretty conservative. But that is in my opinion.

What I meant is that, of those reported failures, how many are actually due to a cause directly related to an issue with the bearings? With or without a replacement, a percentage of those failures would have happened anyway. Does that make sense?

Funny you say that. I've read and been told contradicting information from the same person. Demand is so high they're sold out, yet apparently there's no market for main bearings because demand is too low to justify the cost of tooling for patterns. So which one is it?

What "market" are you referring to? Take a look on carsales; almost every car does not have their bearings done (sort of proves it's a non-issue outside the forums eally doesnt it? But... I digress from the point). People just budget for a bearing replacement post sale if it concerns them. A difference in value would be the cost of the bearing replacement which is 4k, and as I said, that is subject to the buyer. Condition and mileage play a much more an important factor to any perceived value, as condition and mileage isnt as simple as a bearing replacement.

Last edited by Charlievee; 02-18-2020 at 04:04 AM..
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      02-18-2020, 05:13 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Was not gonna bite, but for the record - I was joking with the Confucius thing btw. Glad you researched the origins of the quote though....not sure you got the point....

I love cars, but yeah - I have very little faith that the manufacturers have my best interests at heart. Clearly you have a better attitude towards them than I do.

I like buying things, they likey selling things - I get that. Capitalism. I'm hooked-in for the ride...clearly....I own an M3.

Manufacturers "fixing" things, without getting paid, "admitting fault"....yeah...they "likey" not so much.

10 sec google search...

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyot...ry?id=22972214

I would point out - some of these guys were also dragged kicking and screaming by the govt to be more "proactive" in enforcing takata air bags recalls also.....not politely pushed....more like shoved by the government into more forceful action.

https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...-recall-117402

Not exactly super motivated to correct problems - even when lives were at stake.
BMW was one of the better one's in this space, but still.....

Anyways, I only point these things out to highlight my suspicion regarding BMW and their inaction is not exactly "unfounded".

When you take manufacturers historical attitudes and behaviour into account, my personal attitude towards BMW on this bearing issue and them avoiding taking ownership - is not unreasonable.

BMW not saying anything about the bearings......does not mean much in the scheme of things - not to me anyway.

Anyway....

"Numbers" do say something - I agree. Numbers do not lie....when the source is accurate.

There is under a 1% S65 failure rate attributed to S65 bearings. Yep, yep. OK. These are legitimately recorded and audited numbers right?

Recorded stats on failures.....in this case - does it mean much?
Numbers seem a little murky to me.

Undocumented failures. You want to hang your hat on 1% total - that is fine also. You can do that. Failures could really be any number though.

On top of this, none of those "documented" failure numbers take into account the "avoided failures".

Given BE bearings for S65's are regularly SOLD OUT, maybe....just maybe....quite a number of failures have been avoided?

Is there a number we could pin on that?

Like I said....who knows for sure right.

Regardless of your opinion on the numbers, which 100% you are entitled to btw - I think the consensus out there is that is now a mandatory service item.

Even if you are right and the bearings are fine - M3's without the work done, will be worth less.

Numbers and subjective opinion aside - the market has already decided that.
Just curious. After doing your rod bearings, what oil touched them brand wise. Even at 10% failure rate, I wouldn't open up my engine just to do rods. Re one of the posts above best wear rate seen, , looks like if you plot the wear rate good for perhaps another 10 years or 100k at least on the balance of probabilities perhaps.

Re rs4 carbon buildup are equating that to systemic engines going bang. If so reckon that's BS unless ones done 300k with a backyard mechanic. Sure it's a problem on some and the dyno chart shows a bit less under the stock curve but my systemic engines going bang? Just a view after seeing a couple of rs4 engines opened up.
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      02-19-2020, 01:22 AM   #166
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Regarding RS - no - I was not referring to a "bang" as such. More about an issue, that appears to be well documented, that a manufacturer chooses to ignore. Owners wearing cost of early maintenance on it, which given the purchase price of the vehicle, arguably should not be happening. Was not the best example to use given the context of the S65 discussion - I'll accept that.

Also - was not taking the piss when I mentioned if the failure S65 numbers were "validated". I had missed earlier posted references to where the numbers you were quoting actually came from. Just wanna say I meant no disrespect to the other forum members who collected the info.

On that point, I contribute to forums, but rightly or wrongly - there are things I don't share with the online community. Those with a high participation rate may not understand that, but I can tell you, if I chose to ignore the bearings and the blew the engine - I do not think I would be posting about it. That is just how I am geared. I also feel quite a number of my close crew would feel the same. I'm just saying that I feel the numbers could be higher than you think. Not everyone wants to re-live and share the pain online.

You say 3x is conservative and would cover the undocumented cases. Maybe you are right. Honestly don't know. I work with guys that love their cars - have worked with some for 20 years....I can tell you hand on heart - they would not post anything either. That's just my crew though - I accept others may experience different attitudes to posting and sharing with mates. 5 guys come to mind - and 3 (maybe 4) of those would not post about making the wrong choice on engine maintenance. They are not BMW owners though...so hey...could be totally different in the BMW forums all-over. I acknowledge that.

In regards to manufacturers taking ownership and comments about brand being all-important over profit - mate - I truly hope you are right. That employer you mentioned sounds like a good one....gives me hope. Maybe BMW also put people and product before profit. Full integrity. They are a listed company though - with shareholders to be accountable to. The compromise between profit, product, quality and shareholders - is not something management of listed companies have dealt well with historically. Could be argued that profit shadows the product, but your take on it is a lot more positive than mine. Best to leave it on a more positive note ; )

And the bearings....tooling etc and no market for them - that is an interesting point. Thinking on that - I realise I have no idea how many have been manufactured. Could be in small batches? Wonder if we could find out how many BE have sold? If in small batches - would explain the lack of availability. Given that BE make them and also now ACL - would have think there is a market for them though right?. Of course - you add the OEM numbers into the mix as well. Could be a few bearings done out there? Food for thought anyways.

As for me? I've not done my bearings yet. Before you flame me - I have paid for them (no BS) and am waiting BE stuff to arrive from European Autosource in USA (along with my ESS tune). BE bearings literally just came back into stock over there. So maybe a few weeks off arriving to me. Will go a thinner oil once changed though I think. Undecided on that yet.
Just intend to the bearings as well - nothing more.

In regards to carsales - yeah - not sure what to say. Low KM cars are of course not going to have bearings done yet. Maybe the majority of owners who have done bearings are holding on to their cars? Maybe other people wanna sell before doing the bearings? Who knows. When I was looking - there were two with bearings done - I can say that for sure. In my defence - I was not really referring to current market - more in the years to come. With more mileage and age is added to these cars, I still suspect the bearings will be more important to re-sale. Just one less question of concern from a potential buyer I would have thought? More importantly- one less thing they can use as a tool to haggle down the price. Does it justify the price of doing the bearings. Time will tell.

All in all - a healthy discussion. : )
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      02-19-2020, 04:37 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Shan75 View Post
Regarding RS - no - I was not referring to a "bang" as such. More about an issue, that appears to be well documented, that a manufacturer chooses to ignore. Owners wearing cost of early maintenance on it, which given the purchase price of the vehicle, arguably should not be happening. Was not the best example to use given the context of the S65 discussion - I'll accept that.

Also - was not taking the piss when I mentioned if the failure S65 numbers were "validated". I had missed earlier posted references to where the numbers you were quoting actually came from. Just wanna say I meant no disrespect to the other forum members who collected the info.

On that point, I contribute to forums, but rightly or wrongly - there are things I don't share with the online community. Those with a high participation rate may not understand that, but I can tell you, if I chose to ignore the bearings and the blew the engine - I do not think I would be posting about it. That is just how I am geared. I also feel quite a number of my close crew would feel the same. I'm just saying that I feel the numbers could be higher than you think. Not everyone wants to re-live and share the pain online.

You say 3x is conservative and would cover the undocumented cases. Maybe you are right. Honestly don't know. I work with guys that love their cars - have worked with some for 20 years....I can tell you hand on heart - they would not post anything either. That's just my crew though - I accept others may experience different attitudes to posting and sharing with mates. 5 guys come to mind - and 3 (maybe 4) of those would not post about making the wrong choice on engine maintenance. They are not BMW owners though...so hey...could be totally different in the BMW forums all-over. I acknowledge that.

In regards to manufacturers taking ownership and comments about brand being all-important over profit - mate - I truly hope you are right. That employer you mentioned sounds like a good one....gives me hope. Maybe BMW also put people and product before profit. Full integrity. They are a listed company though - with shareholders to be accountable to. The compromise between profit, product, quality and shareholders - is not something management of listed companies have dealt well with historically. Could be argued that profit shadows the product, but your take on it is a lot more positive than mine. Best to leave it on a more positive note ; )

And the bearings....tooling etc and no market for them - that is an interesting point. Thinking on that - I realise I have no idea how many have been manufactured. Could be in small batches? Wonder if we could find out how many BE have sold? If in small batches - would explain the lack of availability. Given that BE make them and also now ACL - would have think there is a market for them though right?. Of course - you add the OEM numbers into the mix as well. Could be a few bearings done out there? Food for thought anyways.

As for me? I've not done my bearings yet. Before you flame me - I have paid for them (no BS) and am waiting BE stuff to arrive from European Autosource in USA (along with my ESS tune). BE bearings literally just came back into stock over there. So maybe a few weeks off arriving to me. Will go a thinner oil once changed though I think. Undecided on that yet.
Just intend to the bearings as well - nothing more.

In regards to carsales - yeah - not sure what to say. Low KM cars are of course not going to have bearings done yet. Maybe the majority of owners who have done bearings are holding on to their cars? Maybe other people wanna sell before doing the bearings? Who knows. When I was looking - there were two with bearings done - I can say that for sure. In my defence - I was not really referring to current market - more in the years to come. With more mileage and age is added to these cars, I still suspect the bearings will be more important to re-sale. Just one less question of concern from a potential buyer I would have thought? More importantly- one less thing they can use as a tool to haggle down the price. Does it justify the price of doing the bearings. Time will tell.

All in all - a healthy discussion. : )
Despite saying I would note open up the motor just to do rod bearings, I have a set and bolts and throttle body valves in my maintenance parts box perhaps for a rainy day. Re oil, I don't understand why you would use oil that design engineers specifically specified. Is there a correlation between engine oil used and excessive rod bearing wear. Are all 10W60 the same or is it a case of oils aint oils
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      02-19-2020, 07:07 AM   #168
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Did you know there's a blown engine registry thread? Been around quite some time. For data collection purposes, people just drop a post in there reporting a failure and include info on year model, mileage, etc. I mean, I get the point, I wouldn't create my own thread either, but dropping a post within a registry thread is close to no effort for the benefit of the community. You could even do it for your friend.

I mean, maybe people don't post failures and that's why there's only the few reported (tho that's paradoxical since the internet reports are what led to the fear of rod bearing failures to begin with). Maybe when BMW techs say they haven't come across bearing issues at their service centers is because they were told to lie (by word of mouth because an official notice from corporate would sure to have leaked by now). Maybe people who change bearings hang on to their cars.. (tho statistically, the median of bearing changed and non-bearing changed cars should reflect in the ones being sold at any present time because the reason people sell their cars stays the same, i.e. time for a change, bored, need a bigger car, need a deposit for a house, etc). Who knows for certain... maybe that's all true. But, really.... doesn't It just make sense that the reason for all of it comes down simply to the fact that the occurrence of failures is just that low?

Likewise, I do appreciate your objectivity as opposed to others on these boards that get upset when their truths are challenged. I've enjoyed the discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM3TS View Post
Despite saying I would note open up the motor just to do rod bearings, I have a set and bolts and throttle body valves in my maintenance parts box perhaps for a rainy day. Re oil, I don't understand why you would use oil that design engineers specifically specified. Is there a correlation between engine oil used and excessive rod bearing wear. Are all 10W60 the same or is it a case of oils aint oils
BMW originally spec'd a synthetic 5w30 for their cars. When BMW and Castrol partnered, Castrol brought to the table its 10w60 used for race cars, that they further developed together. BMW since designed all its high revving engines with the 10w60. When they went back to the lower revving turbo engines, they switched back to the 5w30.

The Castrol 10w-60 that BMW designed our cars with is a custom-made product, so it supposedly has the perfect blend of base stocks and additives for our cars.

I'm with you. I'm anal with the type of oil I use, and I will only Castrol TWS 10w60.
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      02-29-2020, 05:39 AM   #169
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I’ve had my engine rebuilt twice now due to bearings. It’s no joke. The first time for memory was 2012, I just started it up one morning and it was rattling real bad. BMW Australia were totally awful and extremely arrogant to deal with and denied any knowledge and couldn’t have cared less. They provided zero help or interest, along with dealer. Since then, almost everyone I know has had an engine rebuild or replaced their bearings.
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      02-29-2020, 05:40 AM   #170
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I now use penrite racing fluid btw. I know not all QLD dealers were even using TWS
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      03-31-2020, 08:03 AM   #171
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M3s (e9x) not really that quick!? Really? IIRC the MT 0-60 is ~4.6s, that's quick in anyone's book , are their much quicker cars? Yea sure, but I bet they're a lot more money too!

************************

Anyway, I hadn't planned on coming back here as some people are simply denying or not understanding what they see in photos & refusing to look at the literature available from the bearing manufacturers , however I've stumbled across a little data since my last post which might be of interest.

Charlievee
IIRC (I'm not going through the thread again to recheck) in reference to the rod bearing condition thread photos you said something along the lines of a lot of the photos of bearings in that thread didn't look that bad, and that their were only 2 poor photos of what good bearings should look like.
As you know to the former I disagree strongly, but to the latter I agree, photos of what good rod bearings look like are rare here. And I think I mentioned I would be collating some, not done that yet, bar this one (from this thread).



Pity it's only done 26k miles, but it is what it is, and you'll see similar mileage bearings in the rod bearing condition thread which look rough in comparison!

This thread by Deansbimmer talks about photos of bearings often said to be looking 'ok', but which are actually knackered, & the close photos Deansbimmer posts of them clearly demonstrate they are not ok, along with his explanation. Feel free to argue with an engine builder/shop owner who has stripped/rebuilt dozens of these engines! (& others no doubt)

Not read through all the posts since my last post (& not going to), I'm not coming back in 'properly', but 2 points I'd like to make. You implied that I got upset because you argued my point - wrong, I got annoyed because you refused to look at the data & you put words in my mouth.

**************

The other (general) point that some people are missing, regarding the ~1% engine failure & taking that chance. It's not just about the small numbers of engine failures, go to the 'rod bearing condition thread' and checkout all the photos of rod bearings pulled (mostly) preventatively there. Even if you disagree with my estimate of over 95% being shot, you'll see that at least 1/2 of them look in bad shape. Ready to explode? Maybe not, how much life have they got left? Who knows! But that's likely what you are taking your chances on.

Good luck guys o7

PS I'm still unsubscribed from this thread , if you want to talk to me about the photos go to one of the other threads.
BMWM3TS - maybe you'd like to PM me to tell me what you think a quick car is .
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Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65 - Does oil analysis work?
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      04-02-2020, 07:27 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
BMWM3TS
M3s (e9x) not really that quick!? Really? IIRC the MT 0-60 is ~4.6s, that's quick in anyone's book , are their much quicker cars? Yea sure, but I bet they're a lot more money too!
The MT is actually 4.9 and the DCT is 4.6.
To name a few; an engine swapped Honda, a mildly modified turbo car (WRX, Evo, SR20, RB, Barra), a MK7 Golf R, stock tuned 335....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Charlievee
IIRC (I'm not going through the thread again to recheck) in reference to the rod bearing condition thread photos you said something along the lines of a lot of the photos of bearings in that thread didn't look that bad, and that their were only 2 poor photos of what good bearings should look like.
As you know to the former I disagree strongly, but to the latter I agree, photos of what good rod bearings look like are rare here. And I think I mentioned I would be collating some, not done that yet, bar this one (from this thread).

Pity it's only done 26k miles, but it is what it is, and you'll see similar mileage bearings in the rod bearing condition thread which look rough in comparison!
I think the answer to this is in the PM you sent me referring to my post from another thread. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=71

So with reference to literature from your bearing manufacturers, the top layer of a trimetallic bearing is typically 0.01 to 0.02mm thick, this is on top of an extremely thin nickel barrier, then the copper-lead layer. All the photos of bearings removed do not have wear past this 0.02mm this layer. So how bad can this wear be?

This goes on to my next point in that the copper layer has properties that allow it to conform in shape to compensate for geometrical errors (again as referenced to literature by your bearing manufacturers). So the top layer may not have been worn deeper than 0.02mm because it may have had some conforming that took place to the copper layer to allow for geometric errors. When you put in a hardened bearing, you give up that geometry correction which means something else in your engine is now taking that additional force... something such as the main bearings with the soft bearing material.

Also when you put in a hardened bimetallic bearing, you lose embeddability anyway. So this whole point around losing embeddability if there is some loss to the top layer is irrelevant. I mean you lose embeddability of 0.02mm particles, which really would only cause abrasion to the journal surfaces not catastrophic failure. Embedding particles is really to prevent them going into other parts of the engine where they can cause damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
This thread by Deansbimmer talks about photos of bearings often said to be looking 'ok', but which are actually knackered, & the close photos Deansbimmer posts of them clearly demonstrate they are not ok, along with his explanation. Feel free to argue with an engine builder/shop owner who has stripped/rebuilt dozens of these engines! (& others no doubt)
Oh trust me, refer to the post where my reply was. I have argued with him and let me tell you, he doesn't put up a very good argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
Not read through all the posts since my last post (& not going to), I'm not coming back in 'properly', but 2 points I'd like to make. You implied that I got upset because you argued my point - wrong, I got annoyed because you refused to look at the data & you put words in my mouth.
I have seen the data, I try to avoid discussing what I'm not an expert in. Mind you that I'm a chartered engineer that writes, reads, reviews and approves technical reports for a living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assimilator1 View Post
The other (general) point that some people are missing, regarding the ~1% engine failure & taking that chance. It's not just about the small numbers of engine failures, go to the 'rod bearing condition thread' and checkout all the photos of rod bearings pulled (mostly) preventatively there. Even if you disagree with my estimate of over 95% being shot, you'll see that at least 1/2 of them look in bad shape. Ready to explode? Maybe not, how much life have they got left? Who knows! But that's likely what you are taking your chances on.
Again, subjective opinion on the wear. I reiterate that the wear seen is less than 0.02mm.


I'd also like to note that I have no conflict of interest whatsoever in this topic. I do not own an E92 M3, nor do I have any personal benefit from you deciding for or against changing your rod bearings.
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      04-18-2020, 04:39 AM   #173
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Quote:
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I do not own an E92 M3, nor do I have any personal benefit from you deciding for or against changing your rod bearings.
So why keep flogging this dead horse thread? Simple solution, do your bearings or don't. End of the day it's only the owner of the car that will benefit from getting peace of mind.
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      05-11-2020, 12:20 AM   #174
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As risk of bringing this topic back to the top. I just wanted to see if anyone has done a Rod Bearing replacement recently in Sydney? If so is there anyone you can recommend and what the cost is?

BMS used to be the best I heard, but they closed.
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      05-11-2020, 12:42 AM   #175
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As risk of bringing this topic back to the top. I just wanted to see if anyone has done a Rod Bearing replacement recently in Sydney? If so is there anyone you can recommend and what the cost is?

BMS used to be the best I heard, but they closed.
Bromspec BMW, still going strong and does plenty of these. Call Alastair, he drives a Harrop Supercharged E92. First class shop, enthusiast owner who does the work himself.
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      05-11-2020, 05:34 AM   #176
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Bromspec BMW, still going strong and does plenty of these. Call Alastair, he drives a Harrop Supercharged E92. First class shop, enthusiast owner who does the work himself.
Thanks mate,
Without me wasting his time you have any idea what I should be paying for this?
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