E92 M3 (Last V8+6spd) or F82 M4 (Last 6spd)?

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by 6ixSpd

There is not a single unique or standout feature about the F8x to make it increase in future value. None. Zero.

The E9X barely has a small chance at that feat for low mileage, desirable spec examples but that's it.

I still don't understand why people think BMW vehicles cars are deemed as collector worthy cars that will increase in value. This conversation had really nothing to do with "future value".

Only buying an M1, E30 M3, Z8, Z3 M Coupe, 1M and perhaps a super clean, low mileage and clean E39 M5 is worthy of keeping as an investment.

Heck, if you're looking to buy a future collectors car, just find yourself a low mileage S2000 CR or hold out for a Shelby GT350R.

[InspireSiR]

Where did you see the words "collectible" or "future value" in my post?

You can still desire something that's of little or no monetary value.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I still don't understand why people think BMW vehicles cars are deemed as collector worthy cars that will increase in value. This conversation had really nothing to do with "future value".

Only buying an M1, E30 M3, Z8, Z3 M Coupe, 1M and perhaps a super clean, low mileage and clean E39 M5 is worthy of keeping as an investment.

Heck, if you're looking to buy a future collectors car, just find yourself a low mileage S2000 CR or hold out for a Shelby GT350R.

Whats funny about your post is you mention BMWs can't be desirable collector cars and go on to mention a bunch of BMWs that are collectibles. I do believe the E92 M3s will be collector cars, it may not be right away but in 20 years there definitely can be a chance of this.

Dave

[dparm]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

No link needed. They just removed the 6mt from the m5, a car that shouldn't have had one since the e60 generation

In the US we're getting 6mt at the very least for one more gen.

I'm willing to bet money on it

The 6MT in the E60 M5 was a joke. It was basically just a modified version of the E39's -- gearing was all wrong for the V10.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by dparm

The 6MT in the E60 M5 was a joke. It was basically just a modified version of the E39's -- gearing was all wrong for the V10.

Even so, I still really like the 6MT E60! Infinitely better than the SMGIII

Where else are you going to get a manual, +8000rpm NA engine in a sedan?

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Whats funny about your post is you mention BMWs can't be desirable collector cars and go on to mention a bunch of BMWs that are collectibles. I do believe the E92 M3s will be collector cars, it may not be right away but in 20 years there definitely can be a chance of this.

Dave

My point is that BMW cars are not like Ferrari or Lamborghini...or even Porsche where eventually every model will become a valued collectors car.

Especially now that BMW is diluting the M brand like crazy.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by dparm

The 6MT in the E60 M5 was a joke. It was basically just a modified version of the E39's -- gearing was all wrong for the V10.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

My point is that BMW cars are not like Ferrari or Lamborghini...or even Porsche where eventually every model will become a valued collectors car.

Especially now that BMW is diluting the M brand like crazy.

Even more reason the E9X M3s will be sought after. Last of the true MCars.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by Dave07997S

Even more reason the E9X M3s will be sought after. Last of the true MCars.

I don't even know what that means. What is a "true" M car? Manual? 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, V8, or V10?

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I don't even know what that means. What is a "true" M car? Manual? 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, V8, or V10?

NA

[i_love_cars]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

I don't even know what that means. What is a "true" M car? Manual? 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder, V8, or V10?

Roll your eyes all you want - the fact that BMW M division heritage and spirit was based on high strung, peppy NA motors with a focus on the driver is not disputable. Nor is it disputable that they have strayed from that. Whether or not it is "better" that they have strayed is entirely up for debate, however, and of course is up to the driver/owner to decide. But let's not pretend that they haven't *drastically* changed the formula from what M has stood for for literally 25 years (at the time the F8x platform came out)

Literally every other car manufacturer who has "evolved" any of their long-term mainstay cars has stayed true to their roots in terms of what made their respective cars special. GT-R stays true to the "more technology is better" mantra that Nissan always had for the car, AMG still has V8s with high power/sound characteristics and are the defacto super-cruiser, Subaru has preserved their unique turbo flat-4 formula and AWD, Porsche 911 practically speaks for itself, and the list goes on - their iconic cars all continue to preserve a balance of heritage and evolution.

The F8x M3/M4 gets mollywhopped at worst, or is dead even at best in nearly every comparison with all kinds of cars. The rest of the world caught up, but in the meantime BMW M has watered down more and more of their platform so what used to make it unique is no longer present - that uniqueness specifically being tossable under control as a perfectly neutral and predictable car - something that went out the window as soon as turbo and torque was introduced. And then there is the loss of the charismatic high revving NA motors.

That's what we are talking about when we talk about the last of the true M cars.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

The F8x M3/M4 gets mollywhopped at worst, or is dead even at best in nearly every comparison with all kinds of cars. The rest of the world caught up, but in the meantime BMW M has watered down more and more of their platform so what used to make it unique is no longer present - that uniqueness specifically being tossable under control as a perfectly neutral and predictable car - something that went out the window as soon as turbo and torque was introduced. And then there is the loss of the charismatic high revving NA motors.
.

I don't think anyone bemoans the loss of NA M engines more than me, however, I don't agree with the statement

The F8X ZCP has, finally, regained its natural place in the universe as the most track oriented of all its competition and the best for the focused driver.

The F8X came out and everyone complained about handling, whatever. Methinks they were too used to flooring the S54/S65 out of corners and now had to learn to modulate the throttle.

EVO car gave the F8X some of the worst reviews ever. However, now they place the ZCP comfortably above the C63 S, the RS5, etc. It is the clear choice for drivers who want to track their cars vs hard park them at car shows.
I think it's incredible that all the car mags that cry that the regular models are too soft and have lost the BMW way drive the M cars and now cry that they're too hardcore. Am I missing something?

I still don't like the F8X. I don't like turbo engines or electric steering, however, BMW still builds the strongest driver's cars of any of its competitor.

If I can choose between the E9X or the F8X the answer is clear. After being invited to track the F8X ZCP, M2, etc, I bought another E9X because I prefer it. However, if I had to buy a new car there is zero doubt in my mind of what it would be.

Everyone bemoans BMW's 'loss of M-ness'. They do this based on:
-"They are M'ifying everything".
I'm fine with M Performance models. It's what Audi has been using in their S4 to beat the 335i for a long time. I'm happy with the intermediate M performance models
-"They went turbo".
This sucks, but what else can they do? They sell lots of M cars and CAFE and other tree hugging BS has ruined NA engines for us. This is not a BMW problem and not a M problem.
-"They sound like shit now".
Yes, they do. Welcome to turbos. I rented a C63 and it also sounds like shit, albeit very loud, annoying shit. Anyone who thinks the C63 sounds 'good' needs to go see a doctor immediately. It may sound a little less like shit than the F8X but that's like saying puke tastes better than doodoo.

Meanwhile, BMW can give you an M3 with a eLSD for around 65k even if you order it with manual.
Your other options are:
Porsche sells the GT3 6MT (200k street price) that loses the eLSD if it comes with 6MT.
Alfa is also around, guaranteeing you won't even make it TO your track day. I have never seen so many press cars breaking down in all the magazines. It seems like you literally cannot drive the car hard on the street for a few days without it breaking
The C63S continues to weigh 4000lbs and is a joke for 'performance driving'. Super fast street car, useless at the track. You can't even fit wide tires in there...
The RS5 will continue to be a non-performance-car forever and ever.


Overall, I think BMW M is doing a pretty damn fine job at things.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

Porsche 911 practically speaks for itself, and the list goes on - their iconic cars all continue to preserve a balance of heritage and evolution.

Right. the 911 stayed true to its roots by staying relatively small, keeping an air cooled naturally aspirated engine, mechanical LSD, with hydraulic steering. Oh wait....

[i_love_cars]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

Right. the 911 stayed true to its roots by staying relatively small, keeping an air cooled naturally aspirated engine, mechanical LSD, with hydraulic steering. Oh wait....

Good point except for the fact that I specifically said these manufacturers have done a better job of striking the balance between evolution and heritage. That absolutely means some concessions will be made. Do you know what I'm talking about when I use the words "striking a balance"?

My point is that BMW M division has gone much further away from heritage and is leaning more on evolution, when compared to its competitors. Other manufacturers have found more middle-ground.

[i_love_cars]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I don't think anyone bemoans the loss of NA M engines more than me, however, I don't agree with the statement

The F8X ZCP has, finally, regained its natural place in the universe as the most track oriented of all its competition and the best for the focused driver.

The F8X came out and everyone complained about handling, whatever. Methinks they were too used to flooring the S54/S65 out of corners and now had to learn to modulate the throttle.

EVO car gave the F8X some of the worst reviews ever. However, now they place the ZCP comfortably above the C63 S, the RS5, etc. It is the clear choice for drivers who want to track their cars vs hard park them at car shows.
I think it's incredible that all the car mags that cry that the regular models are too soft and have lost the BMW way drive the M cars and now cry that they're too hardcore. Am I missing something?

I still don't like the F8X. I don't like turbo engines or electric steering, however, BMW still builds the strongest driver's cars of any of its competitor.

If I can choose between the E9X or the F8X the answer is clear. After being invited to track the F8X ZCP, M2, etc, I bought another E9X because I prefer it. However, if I had to buy a new car there is zero doubt in my mind of what it would be.

Everyone bemoans BMW's 'loss of M-ness'. They do this based on:
-"They are M'ifying everything". I'm fine with M Performance models. It's what Audi has been using in their S4 to beat the 335i for a long time. I'm happy with the intermediate M performance models
-"They went turbo". This sucks, but what else can they do? They sell lots of M cars and CAFE and other tree hugging BS has ruined NA engines for us. This is not a BMW problem and not a M problem.
-"They sound like shit now". Yes, they do. Welcome to turbos. I rented a C63 and it also sounds like shit, albeit very loud, annoying shit. Anyone who thinks the C63 sounds 'good' needs to go see a doctor immediately. It may sound a little less like shit than the F8X but that's like saying puke tastes better than doodoo.

Meanwhile, BMW can give you an M3 with a eLSD for around 65k even if you order it with manual.
All the while, Porsche sells the GT3 6MT (200k street price) that loses the eLSD if it comes with 6MT.
Alfa is also around, guaranteeing you won't even make it TO your track day. I have never seen so many press cars breaking down in all the magazines. It seems like you literally cannot drive the car hard on the street for a few days without it breaking
The C63S continues to weigh 4000lbs and is a joke for 'performance driving'. Super fast street car, useless at the track. You can't even fit wide tires in there...
The RS5 will continue to be a non-car forever and ever.


Overall, I think BMW M is doing a pretty damn fine job at things.

This isn't about what's even better or worse i.e. "how is BMW doing?" - again note that in my original statement I am clear that whether or not the current state of M is "better" is obviously completely subjective and based on the owner.

I disagree that the current F8x is a top-shelf driver experience. Electric steering by definition reduces road feel. There isn't any getting around that. BMW doesn't magically defeat physics just because people want them to. Secondly, having to modulate throttle in corners is always something that needs to be done on the track. But the power curve on a turbo car is way less predictable because (again physics) heat soak and duress will significantly change how much power is on tap at any given time when running hot laps, to a much much larger degree than an NA motor will experience.

Modulating throttle becomes a larger challenge and the car becomes overall less predictable than its predecessors. What makes a good driving experience on track is a car that challenges the driver but at the same time doesn't punish them by enforcing certain aspects of driving need to be babysat - like modulating throttle through corners. You always need to modulate no matter what car you are in (other than maybe a Miata lol), but it's a matter of degree and scale. How much do I have to think about it?

Let's be clear - I'm not saying it's unstable or unsafe or anything like that - but as a comparable to its predecessors and what made them great drivers cars, the F8x is a less predictable vehicle to take around the track. You have less feedback by definition of electric steering, and you have to battle a ton of torque in the corners. No thank you.

So while it may be a good driver's car as it pertains to other modern competitors, that's not for the purpose of this discussion. We're talking about the lineage of M cars.

I will concede that there is definitely some stupid BS that forces BMW's hand in regards to regulations from governments, though.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on most of this.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by i_love_cars

So while it may be a good driver's car as it pertains to other modern competitors, that's not for the purpose of this discussion. We're talking about the lineage of M cars.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on most of this.

Actually I think we agree completely.

I much prefer NA engines for both street and track driving, as well as hydraulic steering.
So, in comparison to its predecessors the F8X is not as good of a driver's car. 100% with you there. I tested them on track and walked away and bought another E9X even though I knew it was slower.

However, the F8X exists in the realm of the current C63S, RS5, Alfa, etc. Against those it succeeds, which is very important when we talk about 'M losing their way'.

M is losing their way in the same way driver's cars are losing their way. It's the market place. According to its peers, it still is the best which is what I expect.
One day we'll unfortunately have a full electric M car and I'll expect it to be the pick of the bunch. I won't want it, but it'll still be better than its competition

[i_love_cars]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Actually I think we agree completely.

I much prefer NA engines for both street and track driving, as well as hydraulic steering.
So, in comparison to its predecessors the F8X is not as good of a driver's car. 100% with you there. I tested them on track and walked away and bought another E9X even though I knew it was slower.

However, the F8X exists in the realm of the current C63S, RS5, Alfa, etc. Against those it succeeds, which is very important when we talk about 'M losing their way'.

M is losing their way in the same way driver's cars are losing their way. It's the market place. According to its peers, it still is the best which is what I expect.
One day we'll unfortunately have a full electric M car and I'll expect it to be the pick of the bunch. I won't want it, but it'll still be better than its competition

You may be on to something if we observe that a bit more - I would argue that your average buyer cares a bit too much about raw power and acceleration - so even if BMW could work around regulations in Europe, and let's say they had an NA-powered modern M, it would be so much slower in a straight line than turbocharged competitors that people would likely jump all over it attacking it as inferior for that simple reason. In some ways it ties BMW's hands because in certain ways they need to play the game in order to stay relevant.

If I ever buy an F8x I'll eat my words, but I too have driven them on track both on technical courses and larger tracks like Road America and it was not enjoyable.

[UGADawgFan]

If you want to buy a current generation "pure drivers car", then BMW should be off your list anyway.

My take- budget drivers car: new Miata

mid priced drivers car: Camaro SS 1LE (which will stomp your E9X M3s and really anything short of a super car on a track)

High end drivers car: Lotus Evora 400 or a Porsche 911

/end.

[SDPLV]

.

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

If you want to buy a current generation "pure drivers car", then BMW should be off your list anyway.

My take- budget drivers car: new Miata

mid priced drivers car: Camaro SS 1LE (which will stomp your E9X M3s and really anything short of a super car on a track)

High end drivers car: Lotus Evora 400 or a Porsche 911

/end.

Cool story but its still a POS Chevy.

[UGADawgFan]

Originally Posted by SDPLV

Cool story but its still a POS Chevy.

BMW snobbery at its best (worst?) You clearly haven't spent any large amount of time with one. It may have a relatively cheap interior in lower trims, but as a drivers car, it's outstanding. In higher trims, the interior is fine. Not like the shit interior in the more basic 3 series is anything to write home about.

American automakers today are not the same as they were in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by UGADawgFan

BMW snobbery at its best (worst?) You clearly haven't spent any large amount of time with one. It may have a relatively cheap interior in lower trims, but as a drivers car, it's outstanding. In higher trims, the interior is fine. Not like the shit interior in the more basic 3 series is anything to write home about.

American automakers today are not the same as they were in the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s.

Naw. Every American car I'm stuck renting from the airports I have traveled to since the early 2000s has remained a POS. It's like they make cars for human's with right angle dimensions.

I'm so annoyed at how God awful the interior and handling is that I can't even enjoy the damn engine. And why is that the gear shifting (in auto) on American cars always feels like shite? Just makes noise. Doesn't do much else.