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      09-22-2018, 12:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
So you want a GT car that handles like sh*t.
Exactly, the MkIV Supra was dogged in 90's reviews for its handling. This new Supra is going to be different car, an actual neutral balanced sports car. The MkIV was a 2+2 GT. It wasn't great car dynamically, what everyone really remembers is the engine.
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      09-22-2018, 12:12 PM   #46
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      09-22-2018, 02:59 PM   #47
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no manual = pass. I'll be using the money from the f30 i just sold towards an e92m. I did really enjoy my gt86 and this seems to be a grown up version of it. I'm sure dynamically it will be great.
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      09-23-2018, 08:34 AM   #48
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I read somewhere recently that Toyota and BMW were originally planning to share a significant number of parts between the Z4 and Supra, but through the course of development, Toyota ended up developing everything in-house except for the drive train, which obviously came from BMW. In other words, I think this is far from a re-skinned Z4. We shall see once we learn more from the production vehicles.
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      09-23-2018, 10:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by CP911 View Post
I read somewhere recently that Toyota and BMW were originally planning to share a significant number of parts between the Z4 and Supra, but through the course of development, Toyota ended up developing everything in-house except for the drive train, which obviously came from BMW. In other words, I think this is far from a re-skinned Z4. We shall see once we learn more from the production vehicles.
Ah I have to disagree. A quick look at the engine bay and interior and you can see how much of this is typical BMW engineering. I haven't paid close attention to all the supra news, but I would like to see underneath (suspension, etc.) to see if those are also rooted in german engineering.

I don't doubt that Toyota was involved, but I would like to know where and what they focused on designing. As someone who works for a Japanese company (automotive engineering) I would be intrigued to know how they worked together on this project, since my experience has lead me to believe that european/american companies take a much different approach to design and development.
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      09-24-2018, 08:08 AM   #50
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2020 Toyota Supra Prototype Review: The Legendary Nameplate Returns

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...totype-review/

Quote:
At the press briefing for the 2020 Toyota Supra preproduction drive, one of the car's assistant chief engineers, Masayuki Kai, wondered aloud if any of the gathered journalists had driven its blood-brother 2019 BMW Z4. I raised my hand and looked around the room to find mine was the only one in the air. Suddenly, the Q&A and all eyes shifted. "What is it like?" Kai-san asked. "Different," I replied. "Different, how?" he and his assembled team wanted to know. I was equally shocked that nobody on the Supra squad had driven the Z4, nor had any of BMW's team driven the future Toyota. Despite the international nature of the joint project, it turns out strict German anti-trust laws forbid it—especially in light of the recent, highly publicized "Dieselgate" case. The forthcoming coupe-only two-seat Supra and the convertible-only two-seat Z4 production cars share the same hard points, wheelbase, track width, engine, transmission, differential, tires, etc. As we learned, however, the cars were developed separately and have completely different software, systems calibrations, and tuning. Now it makes perfect sense that the two would drive so differently. They really are automotive twins separated at birth. Before we get to that, though, let's take a quick detour on the poetically circular synchronicity of Kai-san.

OHAYO GOZAI-TAG

German diplomat and philologist Wilhelm von Humboldt once wrote, "How a person masters his fate is more important than what his fate is." What does a 19th century German philosopher have to do with a 21st century Japanese automotive engineer, you ask? Kai-san's parents were concert musicians who lived and performed in Germany, where Kai was born. He lived there for 10 years and so speaks German natively. His family moved back to Japan, where Kai would enter university and later earn his master's degree in mechanical engineering. While working at Toyota, he would be given the opportunity to work for Toyota Gazoo Racing, where one of his projects was to find a solution to cool the battery pack of the Toyota hybrid World Endurance Championship (WEC) race car—yes, that eventual 2018 Le Mans-winning race car. Soon thereafter, Kai joined the Supra team and moved his family to Munich, where they have lived for the past five years. So you see, Masayuki Kai is singularly equipped to accomplish the requisite synergy and translation between BMW and Toyota. The serendipity of Kai's fate is fascinating, to say the least. Oh, and his benchmark, standout car in terms of dynamics is the first-gen 986 Boxster. He loves how stable and adjustable it is in corners. This all bodes well for the Supra.

A90 + B58 = ???

The internal name for the 2020 Supra is A90, succeeding the previous A80 Supra that ended production in 2002, but which we last enjoyed stateside in 1998 with its twin-turbo I-6 making 320 horsepower. As all Supras have had (A40 to A80, and even the 2000 GT spiritual predecessor), the newest version is powered by an inline-six. In fact, the engine is BMW's B58 3.0-liter twin-scroll single turbo that powers a handful of cars and SUVs. As generous as our Toyota hosts were, they would not share with us any specifications—at all. Not engine output, fuel consumption, dimensions, or pricing. Nada. As it happens, we do know much about the new BMW convertible, and the B58 engine in the Z4 M40i is rated at 382 hp and 369 lb-ft of torque in U.S. spec. Rumor has it that Toyota wasn't given the "up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, B, A" code to access full power. It won't say what the final output will be other than "at least 300 horsepower." We'll know in December when the non-camo-clad Supra drive happens. But sadly, the Supras we drove in the hills outside Madrid and on the Jarama racing circuit didn't feel as aggressively quick as the Z4 did. As with the BMW in Euro-spec, the B58 in the German-market Supra we drove is downrated due to an exhaust particulate filter. In the Z4, the filter chokes a significant 47 hp to result in a mere 335 hp. Perhaps that's the difference I felt.

As with the Z4, there will not be a manual transmission with this engine (wait, what?), but the ubiquitous ZF eight-speed automatic leads to an electronically controlled clutch-pack differential. Both tuned/mapped by Toyota. The differential is two-way, meaning it's adjustable on both the traction and drag sides and is steplessly variable from 0 to 100 percent. There's a launch-control system, and Toyota says that Supra will run 0-60 mph in "less than 5 seconds." We say that's conservative and will go out on a limb and predict 4.5 seconds.

CHASSIS

According to Toyota, the three keys to making a pure sports car are the right combination of wheelbase, track width, and center of gravity. Although we've never heard it applied to cars, Toyota is very proud that the Supra's wheelbase-to-track-width relationship comes tantalizingly close to the golden ratio (1.62). In the Supra it computes to a 1.54 ratio. Our last two Best Driver's Car winners (Lamborghini Huracan Performante and Ferrari 488 GTB) were closer still, with a 1.59 relationship. There might be something to this. When it comes to the Supra's center of gravity, Toyota is equally proud to point out that it's lower than that of the Toyota GT86. That's impressive since that car has a low-pro flat-four Subaru engine, not a tall I-6. The front strut, rear multilink suspension's spring rates, adjustable multimode adaptive shocks, anti-roll bars, bump stops, and single-ratio electric-assist power steering were all tailored by Toyota for the Supra. We're told these elements are still open for final calibration—and the stories they will read from the international press corps will help steer them. There are Normal, Sport, Sport Plus, and full-off modes that affect stability control, throttle tip-in, exhaust tone, gear changes, suspension damping, and steering weight. Finally, we were told the car would be "under 1,500 kilograms" (3,307 pounds) and Toyota is aiming for 50/50 weight distribution.

TRACK TIME

As luck would have it, I was in group one at the press drive, which meant my first taste of the new Supra would be on the undulating 2.4-mile, 13-turn Jarama circuit. With a half-mile front straight and corners with names like Nuvolari, Fangio, and Ascari, it's a tricky track. The last Formula 1 race was held there in 1981 because the runoff is negligible. OK, let's do this. We had brave pro drivers riding shotgun to help point us to the racing line and the correct side of the track over the blind brow. The first impression was how smoothly and quietly the Supra accelerated and shifted, even in Sport mode. We're told the U.S.-spec car will sound a bit more gnarly. Acceleration is linear without an iota of turbo lag, and this is accentuated by the buttery up- and downshifts. In Sport mode, the Z4 M40i is quicker, sharper and sportier in these respects, but that's by design. Both cars are tuned for an effect, and the Supra simply feels more fluid, and in a good way. The first laps, I was feeling my way around and listening to the instructions. On the first flier down the straight (second lap) I pressed the brake pedal, then pressed it further, and further, and my instructor started to say, "More brakes, more brakes" with a hairpin approaching. "Wow, that's a long pedal and not much feel or bite," I announce. "Is this a brake-by-wire system?" I ask. He didn't know, but the four-pot Brembo calipers with large-diameter vented steel discs aren't the problem. Later in the pits, I learned these are pure hydraulic brakes with stock pads and DOT 4 fluid. Hmm. In the next session, I tried a different car with the same results. I'll venture it's the booster tuning. I'd prefer less travel and more bite sooner in the pedal stroke—like the Z4 has.

As confidence and speed increased, I probed the grip in the corners. There's plenty available from the Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires (255/35R19 front, 275/35R19 100Y rear, same as the Z4). The turn-in characteristics are excellent, obedient, and confident. About midway 'round a slow corner, however, I find I'm dialing in more and more steering without the front tires making a noise. I didn't overcook it, and it's understeer, for sure—but it's mild, not terminal. If the steering ratio were variable, not by vehicle speed, but by steering input (quicker ratio as you turn the wheel), it could address or mask the problem. That's likely off the table since the rack must be a done deal. Perhaps looking into the front anti-roll bar diameter or spring rates, or using the differential to drag the inside wheel are still possible before final sign-off. The way the Supra exits corners is perfect. The e-diff puts power down without a fuss, and as the steering unwinds there's an adjustable amount of slide if you want it. All things considered, there are still ways to make the Supra a better track car, but that's not necessarily what it was engineered for.

INTO THE HILLS

Fully 90 percent of the Supra's development was done on public roads—hence the plethora of spy photos. It's also the reason the car really shined on the hills outside of Madrid. Since we were again required to have a handler in the car with us, a second chase car, a GT86, was piloted solo by the second journalist until our scheduled driver swaps. After the mixed results on the track, I wasn't ready for how well the very same cars felt on the road. That long brake pedal I experienced on the track wasn't as big a concern in the real world. There was still mild understeer and a need to dial in a bunch of steering for tighter corners, but even at double the posted speed limits, the corners were confidently within the Supra's ability. What's more is that as good as the GT86 inherently is, it didn't have a chance against the Supra. At one point, I was sandwiched between two 86s: a skilled driver ahead and a less skilled driver in tow. I could see the driver in front driving the tires off of his car, and I was just waiting, looking for a place to pass. It wasn't just a horsepower advantage, either. The Supra had what felt like double the grip and half the body roll. I didn't pass because if I had, I'd lose my swap partner following us.

The next revelation was how utterly quiet the Supra was on the highway. With nearly zero wind noise and barely registered tire noise, the only surfaces that upset it were exceptionally open or coarse pavement. Also, the dampers in Normal mode wiped away almost every surface irregularity. The difference between Normal and Sport modes is palpable, as it should be. This is an excellent road car.

SHROUDED FROM VIEW

I wish I could tell you how the interior looks, but it remained covered the entire day in black felt with flaps for critical switches. Toyota popped the rear hatch only briefly, but I saw that the largely flat cargo area connects to the rest of the cabin by an open pass-through a la Corvette, which makes the quiet ride even more remarkable. The seats were leather and well bolstered. The Supra has the same steering wheel as the Z4, and the buttons and switches I did see were the exact same as those in the Z4—all of them. What is different is the instrument panel, which isn't standard-issue analog BMW. It's more of a digital affair. We're told that despite using the same iDrive-based infotainment system and display as the Z4, the graphics will be unique to the Supra. Along with the EPS fine tuning, we were told this HMI is one of the last things Toyota is still sorting out.

FINAL THOUGHTS

Even at this late stage in the car's development, there's still time to tune out the mid-corner understeer and brake pedal malady before the Supra goes on sale in mid-2019. Once Toyota address these slight conditions, the Supra will be ready to shame a Nissan 370Z and go toe to toe with a Porsche 718 Cayman, or heck, even the BMW Z4. Wouldn't that be a great Head2Head for Jethro and Jonny? Whether or not the lack of power I felt, compared to the Z4, is negotiable with BMW remains a buzz-worthy rumor in the industry. Time will tell. With a ballpark price of about $60,000, the Supra will be an aspirational sports car, and as such, it had better defend that territory with legitimate performance. Oh, I nearly forgot to mention that Toyota fully tested the Supra's ability to do donuts and drifts during its development, ensuring what it calls "expected customer use." But will it satisfy previous A80 owners who still yearn for a Japanese super GT/sports car? I chatted with one today, who works at sister publication Super Street. He owned two A80s in the past and modded one to crank out over 600 horsepower to run the quarter mile in the low 10s and nearly 130 mph almost 20 years ago. Willie said he'd be tempted and could actually afford the new Supra, but he's now a father and the lack of a back seat is a deal-breaker. (He also bet the week after the 2020 Toyota Supra goes on sale, there will be aftermarket exhaust kits and laptop tuning to up the engine's potential.) Hoping to lure GT86 owners who want "MOAR" is probably wishful thinking, too. Kai-san said Toyota is exploring both larger and smaller engines (you can probably bet on a 2.0-liter turbo like the Z4 sDrive30i will have), so there will be room to shuffle a further-in-the-future Supra up or down the performance/cost ladder. As it sits now, the car has huge potential.

Last edited by supra93; 09-24-2018 at 08:23 AM..
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      09-24-2018, 10:37 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Looks like BMW's Atacama Yellow from previous Z4.

Looks darker to me.

Needs an orange like the RC-F has.
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      09-25-2018, 05:42 PM   #52
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Last edited by supra93; 09-25-2018 at 05:48 PM..
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      09-25-2018, 11:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by supra93 View Post
Looks like BMW's Atacama Yellow from previous Z4.

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Originally Posted by Never_Enough View Post
Looks darker to me.

Needs an orange like the RC-F has.
My eyes don't deceive me.

Went back and read bimmerpost's insider info on Supra.

Quote:
February 2018

Supra details: three engines (EU-only 195hp 20i, 255hp 30i, and 335hp 40i - and this means the 380hp Z4 M40i will be offered only by BMW and only in North America and a few other non-EU markets). Intro later this year, common sense suggests it will be simultaneous with Z4. It will be Toyota in name and body design only - everything inside the car is the same familiar BMW stuff: same options, same colors, same interior materials. Speaking of colors, it feels almost like a throwback to the 00s: Glacier Silver, Atacama Yellow, and Crimson Red are coming back, though there'll also be a new matte gray. For the interior, you'll be able to choose between fabric, alcantara, and leather, and (the gods have heard us!) all of these choices will be available in the U.S. Wheels: 17" standard with 18" and 19" optional on 20i and 30i, 18" standard and 19" optional on 40i. 40i gets standard M sport diff, while on 30i it will be optional in something that BMW would call "ZMP". Market positioning for the car seems to be distinctly lower than BMW, for example, the barebones 30i will have manual seat adjustments and no nav system. And, finally (cue the sad trombone): all models are automatic only.
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      10-03-2018, 08:45 AM   #54
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2020 Toyota Supra first drive: Like nothing else, 'cept maybe the Z4

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Does it live up to the hopes and dreams of the Toyota faithful? Mostly yes, in its own way

To understand the new Toyota Supra, the one that is due in showrooms in the first half of next year, you don’t so much have to understand the old Toyota Supra as you must grasp the next BMW Z4.

It’s not as convoluted as it sounds.

The Supra, and I’m not talking about those earlier Celica Supras because, sorry owners, those don’t count, but the A70 and A80 Supras, those built from 1986 to 1993 and from 1993 to 2002, those were front-engine, rear-drive cars that had all the fixin's of a Japanese muscle car. Their powerful straight sixes, especially those from the last generation cars, were overbuilt to the point that tuners were getting over 1,000 hp out of them. One that I got a ride in years ago made 1,100 hp. If you ever went to one of those dyno competitions where builders compete for raw output and spectators stand a safe distance away in case everything suddenly goes kablooie, then you know what I’m talking about. They were muscle cars first and sports cars a close second. Interest in them had grown in recent times, perhaps encouraging Toyota to make another one.

But development of an all-new, small-volume semi-supercar is expensive, and even with a booming economy and lots of people with lots of disposable income, it was prohibitive. Luckily, on the other side of the world, BMW was thinking the same thing, not about making a muscle car or a supercar but a successor to the Z4 cabriolet. How fortuitous! So the two companies got together, co-developing, as the official wording goes, the basic platform and drivetrain before splitting off in the last four years to their respective sides of the planet to fine-tune the suspensions and bodies of what would become their own unique creations: Toyota’s Supra coupe and BMW’s Z4 cabriolet.

As of right this minute I can’t tell you much about the BMW Z4. But I can tell you something about the new Supra. I was lucky enough to get to drive one around the road course on the infield of Texas Motor Speedway yesterday, a crankshaft’s throw away from Toyota’s new U.S. headquarters in nearby Plano. I was further lucky enough to be driving the first U.S. spec version of the car. Earlier drives you may have seen were in European-spec cars on a European track in, that’s right, Europe. This would not only be an American car on an American track but a U.S. spec car in Texas, by God!

Granted, the difference in performance between Europe and the U.S. Supras will not be that much. The Euro cars have an extra particulate filter thingy in their exhaust systems that we in America will not have to deal with. Specific info on this was limited, but we do know that the lack of this filter on U.S. cars frees up the exhaust enough that we may get a slight boost in horsepower over them. So we should consider ourselves lucky, even if it’s only a few hp lucky.

Likewise, the information that Toyota has officially revealed is still scant, which is understandable considering the new car won’t be here till sometime in the first half of 2019. We know the engine will be a 3.0-liter straight six with a single, twin-scroll turbocharger making, “More than 300 DIN HP.” The car’s 0-60 time will be, “Under 5 seconds.” The configuration will be front-engine rear-drive and the weight balance will be 50/50.

A few other things Toyota has released:
  • The suspension will include adaptive variable dampers as standard equipment. A button on the center console will switch the setup between normal and sport modes. “The damping force is optimized at each wheel according to road conditions and driver inputs, and operation has no negative impact on the car’s ride and handling quality.”
  • Hitting the sport button will: make throttle response “more direct and aggressive,” the automatic transmission will shift faster, the adaptive suspension will tighten up, the electric power steering will be faster, and the active differential will be “optimized for traction and cornering balance.”
  • Yes, there is an electronically actuated active differential. It can send as much as 100 percent of torque to either rear wheel of this rear wheel-drive car as needed for exiting corners with maximum grip. But it is a two-way diff, so it also unwinds appropriately going into corners to maintain stability on deceleration.
  • The steel and aluminum body is designed to be as taut as possible, with rigidity Toyota says exceeds that of the carbon fiber Lexus LFA.
  • Tires are super-sporty Michelin Pilot Super Sports, 255/40R19 front and 275/35R19 rear. So you’ll be getting good grip.
  • Brakes are four-pot Brembos, and even the brake booster is “optimized.”
  • On the Toyota side, the new Supra is a product of Gazoo Racing in Japan, the same group that won Le Mans most recently. Chief engineer on the Supra was no less than Tetsuda Tada, who was also chief engineer of the Toyota 86, much beloved by sports car drivers on a budget. That alone should be reassuring to sporty car aspirers. But now, as Tatsuda-san said, “Numbers are one thing, feelings are another.”

Which brings us back to the infield road course at Texas Motor Speedway. I’d get 20 laps in two ten-lap increments in the parts department’s Supra. This far out from production, these things are far from ubiquitous. So the generosity of the parts department must be acknowledged. Thank you, parts department. Like the cars from the European drive earlier, this one was a very early prototype. That meant I couldn’t look at the unfinished and camouflaged interior, which was still largely unassembled anyway. The outside of my car had black and white camouflage, but I was forbidden to photograph this car. So the shots you see here are of the European cars, which, apart from that exhaust and maybe some side marker lights, are pretty much the same.

My driving coach would be no less a driving hero than Craig Stanton, who has won in everything from dirt bikes to LMP1 prototypes to Porsche GT3s to various Baja racers. My first Supra laps were in the passenger seat as Stanton walloped the car around the road course to make sure everything was still on the car. Earlier in the day he’d done several miles on the track to bed in the new brakes. This particular car had zero miles on the odometer the morning of my drive. By the time Stanton was taking those warmup laps the odometer read maybe 20.

From the passenger’s seat you can really feel the quick acceleration. The official 0-60 of “under 5 seconds” could also mean “close to four seconds” for all I knew. Sure felt possible. Likewise, the car cornered flatter than I was expecting. Chief engineer Tada-san said the team developed the car using what he calls the “Golden Ratio.” No, that is not a drinking game. It is the ratio between the wheelbase, track and the height of the car’s center of gravity. The Supra has a wider track, relatively shorter wheelbase and a lower center of gravity than, say, the 86, or any number of other sports cars Tada listed.

Thus, when I got behind the wheel I could immediately sense that this was a different kind of sports car, even though my first ten laps were in normal mode, and were perhaps less impressive from a handling point of view than I was prepared for. The suspension was not as taut as I’d been expecting. The shifts were slower too, even though I was using the paddle-shifters to go between second, third and fourth, as the short, tight track required.

Ten laps down we pulled into the pits and Stanton had the team reduce tire pressures from 41 to 39 all around, the idea being to get a better contact patch at each corner. Then he reached over from the passenger’s seat, hit the sport button and we went back out.

Instant sports car! Right away the steering felt alive, the revs were higher and the suspension was far more responsive. This is the button you want to use for spirited driving.

In faster corners, the active diff not only eliminated any wheelspin exiting corners, even the 150-degree squeaker on the north end of the track, and likewise eliminated rear-end wandering coming into the corner. It even did this better than some supercars I’ve driven on race tracks, I dare say.

The Supra felt like it turned quicker, rotated faster and got out of corners with more immediacy than any of the previous Supras, certainly, but it also stood apart from your generic, garden variety “sports car.” The setup indeed felt square, if that’s even a term, not like a long-wheelbase sports car - or even a regular-wheelbase sports car. This did not translate to instability in a straight line, but a unique feel not unlike… hey, a BMW Z4! While BMW has never, as far as I know, described a Golden Ratio for any previous Z4, that car’s shorter-than-average wheelbase did give it a feel like this Supra. The difference with this new car, of course, was that this was not powered by a 1.9-liter four-cylinder, as a previous-generation Z3 had been, but by this powerful 3.0-liter turbo straight six. It was as if BMW and Toyota had created a really powerful go kart. You’ve driven go karts, imagine a larger one with about four times more power and torque.

At least that’s an initial impression from a very early prototype. Later drives will be even more sorted than this one. There’ll also be much more information coming in the next months, including full specs, a drive of a production car and maybe even pricing. Right now, as far as pricing goes there’s a vague notion that it’ll cost over $50,000. Where that fits into the sports car market is also something that has to be sorted out. Maybe the only competition will be the BMW Z4, its fraternal twin. In any case, this is not going to be like anything else on the market – except the Z4. And with the Supra’s permanent, fixed roof adding more torsional rigidity, it might have that one beat. Let’s see what we learn next.

ON SALE: First half of 2019
BASE PRICE: More than $50,000
AS TESTED PRICE: Priceless
POWERTRAIN: 3.0-liter, single twin-scroll turbocharged straight six, eight-speed automatic, rear wheel-drive
OUTPUT: More than 300 hp
CURB WEIGHT: Less than 3300 pounds
0-60 MPH: Less than 5 seconds
PROS: Big engine, small car, very promising
CONS: Only a prototype, must wait for production
https://autoweek.com/article/car-rev...first-us-drive
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      10-04-2018, 03:14 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieGrüneHölle View Post
Exactly, the MkIV Supra was dogged in 90's reviews for its handling. This new Supra is going to be different car, an actual neutral balanced sports car. The MkIV was a 2+2 GT. It wasn't great car dynamically, what everyone really remembers is the engine.
What bs are you spewing. It smoked the nsx and rx7 in handling tests back then. The reviews were across the board positive. Not the RX7 300xz Vett Viper 3000gt nsx or 963 could top it.
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      10-04-2018, 05:49 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellrotm View Post
So you want a GT car that handles like sh*t.
comments like this are exactly what's wrong with 'modern car culture'

for example, an E30 M3 is much slower and handles worse and brakes worse than your F80 M3.......but is and will always be far, far, far, FAR more desirable than your F80 M3. If you both in front of me i wouldn't even look at the F80 M3 and i'd drive the E30 M3.

Statistics and specs and on-paper performance are not reasons to love cars. It's their imagination, their feel, the way they look, the personality and character they have.

Unfortunately most modern cars lack anything remotely resembling character, hence comments like yours that negate people preferring older cars.

A Lamborghini Hurrican Performante may run rings around a Lancia Stratos, but NOBODY CARES because the Stratos is an all time classic and way beyond anything any modern supercar could ever be. It's called being timeless. Not to be evaluated as apples to apples.

So back to the point, the last gen Supra captured people's imaginations. In a way this current fast appliance could never.
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      10-04-2018, 11:52 AM   #57
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So you want a GT car that handles like sh*t.
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
comments like this are exactly what's wrong with 'modern car culture'

for example, an E30 M3 is much slower and handles worse and brakes worse than your F80 M3.......but is and will always be far, far, far, FAR more desirable than your F80 M3. If you both in front of me i wouldn't even look at the F80 M3 and i'd drive the E30 M3.

Statistics and specs and on-paper performance are not reasons to love cars. It's their imagination, their feel, the way they look, the personality and character they have.

Unfortunately most modern cars lack anything remotely resembling character, hence comments like yours that negate people preferring older cars.

A Lamborghini Hurrican Performante may run rings around a Lancia Stratos, but NOBODY CARES because the Stratos is an all time classic and way beyond anything any modern supercar could ever be. It's called being timeless. Not to be evaluated as apples to apples.

So back to the point, the last gen Supra captured people's imaginations. In a way this current fast appliance could never.
You completely misunderstood my post and went on a long diatribe comparing old and new cars. My knock on the MKIV Supra handling like sh*t was not in relation to modern cars. The MKIV was never praised for its handling or steering back in the 90's. Go read old reviews/comparos. It was a 2+2 GT with a fantastic motor and ho-hum handling. Supra was a motor(JDM muscle car), not a package. The 2JZ was in many cars. Tada and Toyota are building a different car this time around, a true 2 seat sports car. Handling is obviously the main priority. Oh and the E30 is one of the most overrated BMW's. Yup I said it. I would take an E28 M5 all day any day. E36 M3 with Euro spec 3.2 was pinnacle of the M3.

Last edited by hellrotm; 10-04-2018 at 12:18 PM..
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      10-04-2018, 04:06 PM   #58
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Much of the interior seems like a straight lift from the BMW Z4, although Toyota claims that the cabin is unique to the Supra. I’m not convinced yet. As our test cars were engineering prototypes, all but the most vital dials and buttons were covered with heavy felt panels—a fun thing to look at when you’re speeding down a track—but peering behind those then the PR minders weren’t looking showed a lot of BMW-style switches, buttons and even the rotary iDrive controller.
With all the BMW stuff in this car we're gonna need to make a subforum on bimmerpost for it
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      10-05-2018, 09:39 PM   #59
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An hourglass-shaped hatch opening looks to have the room to squeeze a set of golf clubs into the cargo bay...
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      10-05-2018, 09:43 PM   #60
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The problem with the Supra is that it is IDENTICAL to the BMW Z4 besides a few external body panels and Toyota badges.
Funny how people can see things differently. The "problem" you describe sounds like a huge benefit to me.
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      10-06-2018, 12:56 AM   #61
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The 4 cylinder Supra...
??? Tada owed us a 10-second car. Not a 10-minute car
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      10-06-2018, 04:06 AM   #62
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Sounds like a bigger Frs and they will drone on its about "fun" and "feeling" and more bs like that to excuse how under powered it really is.
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      10-06-2018, 06:38 AM   #63
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they had another shot at greatness and settled for a larger, boring, fr-s.
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      10-07-2018, 12:55 PM   #64
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