Cooling Issue - or - Normal?

[MinionM3]

Hello all,

Finally got my E92 build to a point that I thought it was worthy to take to the track - I attended an event at Willow Springs (Big Willow) last Friday for the cars first shakedown run.

I found that the car got very hot, relatively quickly. The sessions were 20-Minutes long and by minute 7-ish I was already at the third dot on the temp gauge and by minute 10 or so, id have to take one, if not two cool down laps before I could take a hot lap again.

I am coming from an e36 that I built pretty extensively and that car would stay within safe operating range for complete sessions at this track going full-tilt without the need for cool down laps (Aside from tires on occasion).

For others that have been there - does that sound right to what your cars have done? It seems excessive to me.

The car is a DCT E92 and on stock cooling all around.

I was doing laps in the mid to high 1:32 mark, so I was definitely putting the car through its paces, but the constant need for cool down laps really impacted any rhythm id get going or free track space id get.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences with these cars on track - I've had mine for 5+ years, but only just converted it to the track toy.

I know Do88 is the fan favorite for cooling upgrades, but i wasn't planning on doing that full kit right away - if this is normal for these cars though on stock cooling, i think that will get bumped way up the priority list for next upgrades.

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by MinionM3

Hello all,

Finally got my E92 build to a point that I thought it was worthy to take to the track - I attended an event at Willow Springs (Big Willow) last Friday for the cars first shakedown run.

I found that the car got very hot, relatively quickly. The sessions were 20-Minutes long and by minute 7-ish I was already at the third dot on the temp gauge and by minute 10 or so, id have to take one, if not two cool down laps before I could take a hot lap again.

I am coming from an e36 that I built pretty extensively and that car would stay within safe operating range for complete sessions at this track going full-tilt without the need for cool down laps (Aside from tires on occasion).

For others that have been there - does that sound right to what your cars have done? It seems excessive to me.

The car is a DCT E92 and on stock cooling all around.

I was doing laps in the mid to high 1:32 mark, so I was definitely putting the car through its paces, but the constant need for cool down laps really impacted any rhythm id get going or free track space id get.

Thanks in advance for sharing your experiences with these cars on track - I've had mine for 5+ years, but only just converted it to the track toy.

I know Do88 is the fan favorite for cooling upgrades, but i wasn't planning on doing that full kit right away - if this is normal for these cars though on stock cooling, i think that will get bumped way up the priority list for next upgrades.

Think you might need to bump the cooling way up the priority list. Heat can give a stock E9x M3 fits on the track - yours with the upgrades could definitely push past the oem cooling systems potential. Being able to push the car that much harder is going to likely generate more heat to deal with.

I have been very happy with the do88 setup.

[tsk94]

I also agree that cooling should be bumped up. Really, it should be the next upgrade(s) you do. No point in having a capable car that needs to be cooled down after a few hot laps - no fun in that imo.

I would go with the full kit (radiator, oil cooler, power steering and trans). A lot of people speak highly of the do88 setup, I'm using the full CSF setup on my car and it's been great. Either of these full kits would solve your problem.

[dogbone]

A stock DCT E9x M3 engine and it's support systems (like trans, etc.) are prone to overheating if several things are present:

-a driver who knows how to push the car hard on a track
-go fast mods like aero, suspension, brakes, etc. are on the car
-high grip tires are on the car

You definitely satisfy the first two conditions. I don't know what kind of tires you run.

High ambient air temps make it worse. Oil and water temps go higher faster when the air is hot.

I hate to be a negative ninny, but I just gotta tell ya that simply replacing a few coolers will not be a miracle solution. It can help a bit, but aftermarket coolers are not a miracle unfortunately. Believe me, I wish they were. The most useful of the bunch seems to be the do88 DCT cooler. (My write up about the do88 DCT cooler: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=18 ) But look at it, it's almost double the size of the stock unit. The other coolers cannot increase capacity like that. There just isn't enough room in an otherwise stock engine bay. And people who have tried adding second coolers have not had much better luck. The best they seem to report back with is that the car still overheats but cools down quicker.

One of the less known fixes that I do believe is a positive piece to the puzzle that helps is an oil diverter. I wrote my initial conclusions about the oil diverter here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=50 (you need to scroll down the page quite a bit). The oil diverter, according to the AIM data and my butt dyno, does seem to help keep oil temps down. The part is cheap but paying 4 hours of labor to install is not.

I also have a misting system that sprays water on several coolers. It's activated by supercharger boost but could also be designed to respond to gas pedal position. I believe that helps a bit.

Chasing down heat issues has been a frustrating part of this platform. There are lots of claims out there from products that I don't see backed by any clear hard data.

I will give credit to the some of the aftermarket coolers for being all metal designs that are probably more durable than the metal/plastic hybrids that BMW uses. From that standpoint, I think there's value in the aftermarket coolers.

(I'm actually still on an OEM coolant radiator. Replaced my previous OEM radiator with another OEM radiator because the old one was leaking.)

(I don't know if you're familiar with my build thread, but I've been down the overheating road my fair share with my E90.)

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by dogbone

A stock DCT E9x M3 engine and it's support systems (like trans, etc.) are prone to overheating if several things are present:

-a driver who knows how to push the car hard on a track
-go fast mods like aero, suspension, brakes, etc. are on the car
-high grip tires are on the car

You definitely satisfy the first two conditions. I don't know what kind of tires you run.

High ambient air temps make it worse. Oil and water temps go higher faster when the air is hot.

I hate to be a negative ninny, but I just gotta tell ya that simply replacing a few coolers will not be a miracle solution. It can help a bit, but aftermarket coolers are not a miracle unfortunately. Believe me, I wish they were. The most useful of the bunch seems to be the do88 DCT cooler. (My write up about the do88 DCT cooler: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=18 ) But look at it, it's almost double the size of the stock unit. The other coolers cannot increase capacity like that. There just isn't enough room in an otherwise stock engine bay. And people who have tried adding second coolers have not had much better luck. The best they seem to report back with is that the car still overheats but cools down quicker.

One of the less known fixes that I do believe is a positive piece to the puzzle that helps is an oil diverter. I wrote my initial conclusions about the oil diverter here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=50 (you need to scroll down the page quite a bit). The oil diverter, according to the AIM data and my butt dyno, does seem to help keep oil temps down. The part is cheap but paying 4 hours of labor to install is not.

I also have a misting system that sprays water on several coolers. It's activated by supercharger boost but could also be designed to respond to gas pedal position. I believe that helps a bit.

Chasing down heat issues has been a frustrating part of this platform. There are lots of claims out there from products that I don't see backed by any clear hard data.

I will give credit to the some of the aftermarket coolers for being all metal designs that are probably more durable than the metal/plastic hybrids that BMW uses. From that standpoint, I think there's value in the aftermarket coolers.

(I'm actually still on an OEM coolant radiator. Replaced my previous OEM radiator with another OEM radiator because the old one was leaking.)

(I don't know if you're familiar with my build thread, but I've been down the overheating road my fair share with my E90.)

I wonder how much of your overheating troubles are due to being supercharged? I'm not sure what cooling mods, if any, you've done to your E92 - but have you ever ran the E92 and E90 at the same track(s) in similar conditions? How was the cooling between the two cars if you have?

Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the CSF cooling kit has worked well for me. The highest oil temps I've seen were ~230F over the course of a 30 minute session, with no cool down laps on a 'hot' day. But, importantly to note, the climate we have up here is not nearly as hot as someone like you would experience at California area tracks . A HOT day here is 30C or 86F ambient, with the average day being around 70F. That makes a big difference so my experiences should be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, for the tracks I visit and the climate I run the car in it works great and runs cool.

[kyippee]

[edit: I clearly can not read. Re-read and see big willow noted at start of post]

You mentioned a lap time for reference, but what track was that? Hard to get a sense of pace without knowing

+1 on aftermarket not being a miracle cure. I'm on do88 engine oil cooler, CSF radiator, do88 power steering cooler, track spec hood vents, 60% water / 40% coolant mix, and I still regularly hit near or at third needle point of oil temp gauge.

For pacing reference, 1:57.16 at Thunderhill East Bypass config, full interior E92 M3, 295 square nankang AR-1, JRZ suspension, BBK, mediocre driver (me)

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by tsk94

I wonder how much of your overheating troubles are due to being supercharged? I'm not sure what cooling mods, if any, you've done to your E92 - but have you ever ran the E92 and E90 at the same track(s) in similar conditions? How was the cooling between the two cars if you have?

Like I mentioned in my earlier post, the CSF cooling kit has worked well for me. The highest oil temps I've seen were ~230F over the course of a 30 minute session, with no cool down laps. But, importantly to note, the climate we have up here is not nearly as hot as someone like you would experience in Cali. A HOT day here is 30C or 86F ambient, with the average day being around 70F. That makes a big difference so my experiences should be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, for the track I visit and the climate I run the car in it works great and runs cool.

No doubt the supercharger adds heat. But when I talk this platform overheating, I'm talking about my friends' cars. We had one friend with a 100% stock E90 M3 engine. He had suspension, race pads in OEM calipers and AD08. That's it. He would overheat ALL THE TIME. He tried all kinds of things like dual aftermarket coolers for both engine and transmission.......didn't stop the overheating. It's worth noting that he liked to keep the revs high. I'm sure that didn't help the heat situation. If you short shifted the engine, I bet that would help.

Anyway, yes, I should clarify that I am not just talking about myself.

And it is also worth mentioning that the bar moves in terms of the car overheating or not. On a Pilot SuperSport tire, you might not get any overheating. But you put on BFG R1S tires, and three laps in the car is complaining about overheating. Of course, your lap time will be 7 seconds faster than the Pilot SS laps.....

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

You mentioned a lap time for reference, but what track was that? Hard to get a sense of pace without knowing

+1 on aftermarket not being a miracle cure. I'm on do88 engine oil cooler, CSF radiator, do88 power steering cooler, track spec hood vents, 60% water / 40% coolant mix, and I still regularly hit near or at third needle point of oil temp gauge.

For pacing reference, 1:57.16 at Thunderhill East Bypass config, full interior E92 M3, 295 square nankang AR-1, JRZ suspension, mediocre driver (me)

1:32 at Big Willow is a solid time. Definitely putting the car through some paces.

[kyippee]

Sweet. Well then, we're all screwed hahahahaha

I just run the AC system on heat-only, 84 degrees, shooting out the driver-facing and passenger-facing vents only, shooting out the window at 75% fan speed. Helps a bit I think.. OP have you tried that too?

[SYT_Shadow]

I did full do88 setup preemptively along with the slonik oil pan and the oil diverter valve.

It works quite well even with a 500whp stroker engine, although overheating is clearly the issue of the E9X generation.

[kyippee]

lol yea my bad MinionM3; rushing my reading during meetings

Come up and play at NorCal tracks too! We need more fast E92 M3s out here

[MinionM3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

A stock DCT E9x M3 engine and it's support systems (like trans, etc.) are prone to overheating if several things are present:

-a driver who knows how to push the car hard on a track
-go fast mods like aero, suspension, brakes, etc. are on the car
-high grip tires are on the car

You definitely satisfy the first two conditions. I don't know what kind of tires you run.

High ambient air temps make it worse. Oil and water temps go higher faster when the air is hot.

I hate to be a negative ninny, but I just gotta tell ya that simply replacing a few coolers will not be a miracle solution. It can help a bit, but aftermarket coolers are not a miracle unfortunately. Believe me, I wish they were. The most useful of the bunch seems to be the do88 DCT cooler. (My write up about the do88 DCT cooler: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=18 ) But look at it, it's almost double the size of the stock unit. The other coolers cannot increase capacity like that. There just isn't enough room in an otherwise stock engine bay. And people who have tried adding second coolers have not had much better luck. The best they seem to report back with is that the car still overheats but cools down quicker.

One of the less known fixes that I do believe is a positive piece to the puzzle that helps is an oil diverter. I wrote my initial conclusions about the oil diverter here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...158445&page=50 (you need to scroll down the page quite a bit). The oil diverter, according to the AIM data and my butt dyno, does seem to help keep oil temps down. The part is cheap but paying 4 hours of labor to install is not.

I also have a misting system that sprays water on several coolers. It's activated by supercharger boost but could also be designed to respond to gas pedal position. I believe that helps a bit.

Chasing down heat issues has been a frustrating part of this platform. There are lots of claims out there from products that I don't see backed by any clear hard data.

I will give credit to the some of the aftermarket coolers for being all metal designs that are probably more durable than the metal/plastic hybrids that BMW uses. From that standpoint, I think there's value in the aftermarket coolers.

(I'm actually still on an OEM coolant radiator. Replaced my previous OEM radiator with another OEM radiator because the old one was leaking.)

(I don't know if you're familiar with my build thread, but I've been down the overheating road my fair share with my E90.)

Thank you very much sir! I always appreciate the thoroughness of your responses - the car is running Dunlop Direzza III tires (Similar to RE71R)

Sounds like the Do88 made the top of the list along with doing some homework on the Oil Diverter.

I noticed you've also got the TrackSpec vents - do you think there was noted difference with those as well in ventilting heat out of the engine bay? If im going to tackle cooling next, might as well go all in, right?

Thanks again for the response and resources.

[MinionM3]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

lol yea my bad MinionM3; rushing my reading during meetings

Come up and play at NorCal tracks too! We need more fast E92 M3s out here

Funny you mention - im actually moving to Palo Alto in the near future so those tracks up there will become my "Home" tracks :-)

[OG Shark]

Definitely climate & track dependent - but even still NA I'm battling heat on the track. I have all the upgraded coolers, oil diverter, vents, etc. and can get the temp up there pretty quickly. Last track day was 80*F on a track that does not generate higher engine temps and was still cruising around at 260*F on Hoosier A7's. At COTA that number is going to definitely go up - a lot of heat is generated there.

Upgrading the coolers is definitely not a cure all - but more a big step in the overall solution. And even all that might not be sufficient at some point. We are working on this in the design of a 2nd E92 M3 race build - definitely going to be feeling the heat in the summer temps...

And yes - I believe if you are going to do it then go all in

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by MinionM3

Funny you mention - im actually moving to Palo Alto in the near future so those tracks up there will become my "Home" tracks :-)

Sweet. There's me, fsmtnbiker, and my friend Steve with his blue E92. Also mr. Goodrich Let us know when you're here!

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by MinionM3

I noticed you've also got the TrackSpec vents - do you think there was noted difference with those as well in ventilting heat out of the engine bay? If im going to tackle cooling next, might as well go all in, right?

Ah right the hood vents......I always forget about those. Yes, I think they can help on few fronts:

-I believe some heat can escape out the vents.
-I believe the vents encourage more airflow through the engine bay.
-It has been said that at high speeds there is positive pressure pushing up on the hood/front of the car. And that perhaps the vents can help alleviate the pressure. It's not "downforce" as much as it is anti-upforce..... At some point here on the forum, somebody had shown an article from a magazine where someone had done wind tunnel testing on a number of cars--the E9x M3 included. If I'm remembering correctly, at like 100 mph, the M3 generated around 20 lbs of lift on the front end. So, if the hood vents can help there, that's cool.

All that being said........did I notice any difference in feel when the hood vents went in? Nope. Did the car start self-refrigerating? Nope.....Darn it! This really IS a pesky problem!!

Often times, we talk the sum of something being greater than the individual parts. I do believe that concept applies here. Do canards or fender vents or hood vents do much on their own? I don't think so. But I do believe that the combination of all these things is worthwhile, especially in the larger context of all the other things we do to these cars like splitters and wings and whatever. Plus, it just looks cool!

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Ah right the hood vents......I always forget about those. Yes, I think they can help on few fronts:

-I believe some heat can escape out the vents.
-I believe the vents encourage more airflow through the engine bay.
-It has been said that at high speeds there is positive pressure pushing up on the hood/front of the car. And that perhaps the vents can help alleviate the pressure. It's not "downforce" as much as it is anti-upforce..... At some point here on the forum, somebody had shown an article from a magazine where someone had done wind tunnel testing on a number of cars--the E9x M3 included. If I'm remembering correctly, at like 100 mph, the M3 generated around 20 lbs of lift on the front end. So, if the hood vents can help there, that's cool.

All that being said........did I notice any difference in feel when the hood vents went in? Nope. Did the car start self-refrigerating? Nope.....Darn it! This really IS a pesky problem!!

Often times, we talk the sum of something being greater than the individual parts. I do believe that concept applies here. Do canards or fender vents or hood vents do much on their own? I don't think so. But I do believe that the combination of all these things is worthwhile, especially in the larger context of all the other things we do to these cars like splitters and wings and whatever. Plus, it just looks cool!

dogbone - looks cool - hard parking for the win again!

I'm thinking about turning my hood into one big vent. Should pass tech that way.

The only single piece that is cooling related that I felt made a big difference on its own was the DCT cooler. I have not had DCT temp issues since it went in.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

dogbone - looks cool - hard parking for the win again!

c'mon----I can WIN hard-parked car of the year with my eyes closed!!! My car is PARKED 1600 miles from where it normally sits. I don't even know where it's PARKED....I'm told somewhere in Houston. And it's going to stay PARKED wherever it is until the virus situation chills out!

[OG Shark]

Originally Posted by dogbone

c'mon----I can WIN hard-parked car of the year with my eyes closed!!! My car is PARKED 1600 miles from where it normally sits. I don't even know where it's PARKED....I'm told somewhere in Houston. And it's going to stay PARKED wherever it is until the virus situation chills out!

Valid point - you win

[jl052699]

Hello, everybody I'm new to this platform, i have a 09 e92 m3 my current problem is that my cooling fan is always on while driving you hear hear it a lot at a stop light I don't if it is a bad water pump, temp sensor or relay, the temperature also always creeps over the 210 mark a moves up and down spontaneously, the car doesn't over heat coolant levels and everything thing are good so I don't know where to start and i live in the midwest so temperatures outside right now are not that hot for the fan to turn on, if anybody has had this issue or has any opinions on what it could be if you can reply it would be appreciated. Thanks

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by jl052699

Hello, everybody I'm new to this platform, i have a 09 e92 m3 my current problem is that my cooling fan is always on while driving you hear hear it a lot at a stop light I don't if it is a bad water pump, temp sensor or relay, the temperature also always creeps over the 210 mark a moves up and down spontaneously, the car doesn't over heat coolant levels and everything thing are good so I don't know where to start and i live in the midwest so temperatures outside right now are not that hot for the fan to turn on, if anybody has had this issue or has any opinions on what it could be if you can reply it would be appreciated. Thanks

Pull the codes to narrow it down, there's probably some shadow code for whatever is failing.