2011 E90 M3 vs. 2017 M2

[Redd]

I'm truly amazed not one person has mentioned the S85 V10 in the E6x M5/6. It's the one engine I want over my M3's V8. Heaven for me would be an S85 V10 shoehorned into my M3's engine bay.

Enjoy the eargasm.

[Montaver]

People talk about the S65 like it's some magical power plant, cant say I agree. Yes it revs cleanly, has a nice rich tone and sounds great on the downshift, but it doesn't sound exotic to me. It's a comfortable 3rd behind a V10 or flat 6. The raw edge of a 90's VTEC unit is more thrilling in a lot of ways.

I moved from an E90 to an M2C, no regrets whatsoever. Dynamically its feels like a significant upgrade. I enjoyed the E90 but I had my fun with it, wouldn't go back. Sound wise the F8x has potential, there is some very interesting experimentation going on in the F8x exhaust section. Adding extra length to one side to even out the exhaust pulses and merging them completely removes the harsh 3 cylinder noise.

[wyatth]

I’m curious in what ways a 90s VTEC engine is more thrilling than an S65.
Haven’t heard a pleasant S55 to date. The M2 with the N55 sound far nicer, and still nowhere near as sweet as the S65.
To some, sound plays an important role in the driving experience. For that alone, I wouldn’t buy an S55 equipped car (torque curve aside). Shove an E92 GTS 4.4L in an M2C or an F80 ZCP and I’d buy it yesterday.

[cjm41]

Originally Posted by Montaver

Sound wise the F8x has potential

Then so does Gilbert Gottfried and Bobcat Goldthwait doing a duet of "Who Let the Dogs Out"

[pooyab]

Originally Posted by Montaver

People talk about the S65 like it's some magical power plant, cant say I agree. Yes it revs cleanly, has a nice rich tone and sounds great on the downshift, but it doesn't sound exotic to me. It's a comfortable 3rd behind a V10 or flat 6. The raw edge of a 90's VTEC unit is more thrilling in a lot of ways.

I moved from an E90 to an M2C, no regrets whatsoever. Dynamically its feels like a significant upgrade. I enjoyed the E90 but I had my fun with it, wouldn't go back. Sound wise the F8x has potential, there is some very interesting experimentation going on in the F8x exhaust section. Adding extra length to one side to even out the exhaust pulses and merging them completely removes the harsh 3 cylinder noise.

V10 R8, 991 GT3 and E90 M3 sounds like a good garage lineup to me

[Redd]

Originally Posted by wyatth

Haven’t heard a pleasant S55 to date. The M2 with the N55 sound far nicer, and still nowhere near as sweet as the S65.

OK so I'm not the only one who thinks the S55 in the M2 is a downgrade sound-wise.

[///M3Fresh]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

For you it may be a no brainer. For me the no brainer is to keep a well balanced E9X for track work vs a GT3 which regular humans seem to be unable to drive fast.

What is the point of a well balanced M3 for track duty? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, S65 sounds way better, I get that we all agree to this, but the M3 is 2nd best at everything and not the best at one thing. A GT3 as a track weapon is worlds better in every definition of the word. There simply isnt much to compare here. If you just want S65 platform because you like beating other GT3's with regular humans thats cool.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ///M3Fresh

What is the point of a well balanced M3 for track duty? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying, S65 sounds way better, I get that we all agree to this, but the M3 is 2nd best at everything and not the best at one thing. A GT3 as a track weapon is worlds better in every definition of the word. There simply isnt much to compare here. If you just want S65 platform because you like beating other GT3's with regular humans thats cool.

What is the point of a well balanced car for track use?

I'm not sure where to start


The GT3 can't be driven fast, which is why I crush all the fools who bought one thinking they'd now be able to keep up with a grocery getter.

Stop comparing cars with excel sheets. Start spending some time at the track instead of excel-racing cars.

[///M3Fresh]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

What is the point of a well balanced car for track use?

I'm not sure where to start


The GT3 can't be driven fast, which is why I crush all the fools who bought one thinking they'd now be able to keep up with a grocery getter.

Stop comparing cars with excel sheets. Start spending some time at the track instead of excel-racing cars.

Yes, a well balanced car statement means nothing when the cars in conversation are all well balance, so I am unsure how that statement fits.

No one is comparing excel data, its already fact the GT3 is worlds faster. You are the one that is trying to argue that it isn't. Saying that you'd rather have an M3 over a GT3 track car is fine, thats your opinion. Adding 'a GT3 which regular humans seem to be unable to drive fast.' makes you sound like a prick. Barrier to entry is way higher in these cars, so chances of someone going ham and really being a 'track rat' is much lower. I dont even know why I am having to even say any of this, youre clearly a track guy, you of all should know this...

[BayE30]

Originally Posted by Montaver

People talk about the S65 like it's some magical power plant, cant say I agree. Yes it revs cleanly, has a nice rich tone and sounds great on the downshift, but it doesn't sound exotic to me. It's a comfortable 3rd behind a V10 or flat 6. The raw edge of a 90's VTEC unit is more thrilling in a lot of ways.

I moved from an E90 to an M2C, no regrets whatsoever. Dynamically its feels like a significant upgrade. I enjoyed the E90 but I had my fun with it, wouldn't go back. Sound wise the F8x has potential, there is some very interesting experimentation going on in the F8x exhaust section. Adding extra length to one side to even out the exhaust pulses and merging them completely removes the harsh 3 cylinder noise.

Said nobody ever.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by SFCM3

Said nobody ever.

Its almost like you didn't read what I actually wrote.

Still, some very interesting and ground breaking opinions here about the stock S55 not sounding very good.

[AdonM3]

Originally Posted by wyatth

I’m curious in what ways a 90s VTEC engine is more thrilling than an S65.
Haven’t heard a pleasant S55 to date. The M2 with the N55 sound far nicer, and still nowhere near as sweet as the S65.
To some, sound plays an important role in the driving experience. For that alone, I wouldn’t buy an S55 equipped car (torque curve aside). Shove an E92 GTS 4.4L in an M2C or an F80 ZCP and I’d buy it yesterday.

Yeah, I am not following the VTEC engine being more thrilling than the S65 either. I can definitely say for me the S65 is far better sounding than both OG M2 and the M2C.

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by Montaver

People talk about the S65 like it's some magical power plant, cant say I agree. Yes it revs cleanly, has a nice rich tone and sounds great on the downshift, but it doesn't sound exotic to me. It's a comfortable 3rd behind a V10 or flat 6. The raw edge of a 90's VTEC unit is more thrilling in a lot of ways.

I moved from an E90 to an M2C, no regrets whatsoever. Dynamically its feels like a significant upgrade. I enjoyed the E90 but I had my fun with it, wouldn't go back. Sound wise the F8x has potential, there is some very interesting experimentation going on in the F8x exhaust section. Adding extra length to one side to even out the exhaust pulses and merging them completely removes the harsh 3 cylinder noise.

Outside of a few exotic engines like those in the f360 through to the 458, I’m not sure you can point to a more sophisticated, interesting v8 as the s65. Certainly nothing from an American company, and few euro manufacturers as well. S85 included, likely Bmws greatest engine. And if the induction and exhaust noise doesn’t sound exotic, what engine short of a v12 or v10 lambo or v8/v12 Ferrari does? Maybe like 2 other engines, period?

Porsche’s sound fantastic - particularly naturally aspirated ones. But note it’s taken Porsche nearly 12 years to make a series production engine (the GT4s 4.0) with the power of the s65.

An s55 powered M3/m4 is an excellent, competent car that in many objective metrics is the best car bmw made. Having said that, it’s performance gain over the s65 powered M3 is all but meaningless off a track, and simply makes the car more conventional vs the v8 powered DTM car that proceeds it.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

Outside of a few exotic engines like those in the f360 through to the 458, I’m not sure you can point to a more sophisticated, interesting v8 as the s65. Certainly nothing from an American company, and few euro manufacturers as well. S85 included, likely Bmws greatest engine. And if the induction and exhaust noise doesn’t sound exotic, what engine short of a v12 or v10 lambo or v8/v12 Ferrari does? Maybe like 2 other engines, period?

Porsche’s sound fantastic - particularly naturally aspirated ones. But note it’s taken Porsche nearly 12 years to make a series production engine (the GT4s 4.0) with the power of the s65.

An s55 powered M3/m4 is an excellent, competent car that in many objective metrics is the best car bmw made. Having said that, it’s performance gain over the s65 powered M3 is all but meaningless off a track, and simply makes the car more conventional vs the v8 powered DTM car that proceeds it.

You make some good sophisticated points, I love a a flat 6 too. No cross plane crank V8's sound particularly exotic to my ears, as cooking V8's go though its hard to beat the S65. Cross plane crank V8's are just too flat and monotone, they don't have the range of other configurations. Although the S65 has some lovely resonance between 3-4K RPM on a partial throttle. However you can now buy a $55k Mustang with a flat plane crank V8 in it which sounds a lot more exciting. The S85 sounds significantly more special than the S65 to me. V10's are rare in general - V8's are not. I like engines with a high pitched edge which you just don't get from a cross plane V8, but thats just my opinion. Not saying I'm right or wrong.

As for power, since the 997.1 GT3 Porsche has created equal (the 3.6 in the gen 1 is slightly lower) or more power from a lower displacement. This a GT car which sits at a higher price point though.

Stock S55's are raw and aggressive but not particularly musical or rich compared to the S65. However there are some exhaust developments coming which equalise the exhaust lengths eradicating the dualing 3 cylinder sound you get from the stock setup. There are some good videos in this thread - https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1675268

Ultimately people should buy what makes them happy, I just don't subscribe to S65 'is the best engine ever' narrative.

[SAMM3Y]

Originally Posted by Montaver

People talk about the S65 like it's some magical power plant, cant say I agree. Yes it revs cleanly, has a nice rich tone and sounds great on the downshift, but it doesn't sound exotic to me. It's a comfortable 3rd behind a V10 or flat 6. The raw edge of a 90's VTEC unit is more thrilling in a lot of ways.

I moved from an E90 to an M2C, no regrets whatsoever. Dynamically its feels like a significant upgrade. I enjoyed the E90 but I had my fun with it, wouldn't go back. Sound wise the F8x has potential, there is some very interesting experimentation going on in the F8x exhaust section. Adding extra length to one side to even out the exhaust pulses and merging them completely removes the harsh 3 cylinder noise.

Interesting.. I wonder what they're doing? Is that why the s55 sounds like that? They have two turbo exhaust manifolds dividing the i6? I guess I never thought about it. My street bike is a three cylinder and it sounds amazing especially at 14krpm, different firing order I know with half the cylinders. A nice sounding car is nice but a faster car is nicer imo, the s65 m3 is a great car for $30k but if I've got $60k to spend, I'm not going on "bat" to find a low mileage individual example, I'd consider the m2c and a few others. I'm balls deep into mine now in mods and I regret it if I'm being honest it's paid for now though and I'll drive it into the ground maybe I'll pick up something else too eventually...

[Scharbag]

Had an M2 beside me yesterday when I turned a corner and I just do not like the sound it makes. They guy was not WOT or anything, but it just sounds bleh. Wish they would have put an all aluminum block variant of the S54 in the M2. Gussy up the rotating mass to get some more RPM, revise the heads to get rid of the valve shims and boom - sweet music.

Sadly, the new emissions rules will make NA engines hard to find. That, and the HP wars...

[sayemthree]

I sold my 2008 m three with manual transmission and I still miss it… I am getting a X.3 MC because I need the extra space and awd drive. If I were getting a Nother car I would get the M2 competition It reminds me a lot of my 2008 m three

[SupraSaiyan]

Sold my MY17 M2 and upgraded it to a MY08 M3. The best part of this upgrade was not having to turn off DSC every single time I get into the M2 as I never used auto-rev match.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by SupraSaiyan

Sold my MY17 M2 and upgraded it to a MY08 M3. The best part of this upgrade was not having to turn off DSC every single time I get into the M2 as I never used auto-rev match.

Auto rev match should be banned.

[///M3Fresh]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Had an M2 beside me yesterday when I turned a corner and I just do not like the sound it makes. They guy was not WOT or anything, but it just sounds bleh. Wish they would have put an all aluminum block variant of the S54 in the M2. Gussy up the rotating mass to get some more RPM, revise the heads to get rid of the valve shims and boom - sweet music.

Sadly, the new emissions rules will make NA engines hard to find. That, and the HP wars...

the S55 has this in the mid to high rpm range. Personally I think it sounds awful. I tried so much to change the exhaust of my S54 but it was hopeless. A nice carbon box and the sound of the induction was glorious.

For me, I always thought the S55 sounded so close to S54 but with more muffling and resonances due to the turbos and exhaust limitations under the car that I skipped ever looking into F8X M's.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by ///M3Fresh

the S55 has this in the mid to high rpm range. Personally I think it sounds awful. I tried so much to change the exhaust of my S54 but it was hopeless. A nice carbon box and the sound of the induction was glorious.

For me, I always thought the S55 sounded so close to S54 but with more muffling and resonances due to the turbos and exhaust limitations under the car that I skipped ever looking into F8X M's.

Hmm, I think the S54 is a symphony of mechanical glory. It is guttural in the right ways, has a nice induction sound and is responsive as hell. It gives me wood to think about what it could sound like with cams and about 500 more RPM (~8500 redline). With lighter/stronger rods and lighter pistons, this is doable Well, and proper bearings, and a better oil pump... Details...

On the other hand, the N55 and S55 both seem to sound like a slightly muffled box of rocks being tumbled in an industrial dryer. I honestly do not know what BMW did to make them sound so abrasive to my delicate ears. Perhaps with the right pipes, they sound better. But, I have never heard one that makes me turn my head and smile. In contrast, every V8 M3 or V10 M5/M6 I hear makes me look and smile. But so does every V10 R8... Go figure.

And I just think there is something special about an engine running at 7500RPM+. FI cars do not need to rev to make power, and typically it is better to not run them to red line as their wee turbos far too often run out of lungs. On the other hand, NA engines need to spin baby spin!!

Personal preference for sure. And to each their own. I am happy with my gas guzzling, noise making, hair raising V8 M3 and would not trade it for anything else with a BMW badge. And before it gets mentioned, I would trade my M3, my left nut and most of my fingers for the BMW S70/2 V12... But that had a McLaren badge on the car.

Cheers,

[SupraSaiyan]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

Auto rev match should be banned.

100%!