Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[///M Power-Belgium]

*superbang* for the list => # 17 https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25249708

[Lowflight]

Question.

What if you have had a tick that responds to RPM changes that hasn't got better or worse for the last 11k miles? Chain tension er maybe?

[Lowflight]

Originally Posted by Lowflight

Question.

What if you have had a tick that responds to RPM changes that hasn't got better or worse for the last 11k miles? Chain tension er maybe?

Anyone?

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Lowflight

Anyone?

Prolly better to post this in a new post and not thread jack this one.

[houston]

Gotta love all the misinformation out there: if the seller doesn’t even acknowledge the rod bearing issues I would hate to know what else he neglected. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...ng_ending_soon

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by houston

Gotta love all the misinformation out there: if the seller doesn’t even acknowledge the rod bearing issues I would hate to know what else he neglected. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...ng_ending_soon

I disagree, car ended up selling for what I would think is fair market value. White on red manual is a desirable spec, on top of that LCI and low miles. The pics look pretty good too. Could be argued he’s misinformed about the RB’s but who cares? I’d rather buy a car with RB’s not done so I can take it to a shop I prefer vs the car already having them done and being replaced with who knows what of the multiple options of replacement out there.

[///M Power-Belgium]

*bergerking* for the list => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...6#post25368346

[DrivingPassion]

Any idea what is the status of that class-action suit?

S65 is a beauty and it's such a waste for BMW to just keep silent on this. They should offer to replace the rod bearings with a newly designed solution to fix this once and for all. Such short-sightedness to let this linger.

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Any idea what is the status of that class-action suit?

S65 is a beauty and it's such a waste for BMW to just keep silent on this. They should offer to replace the rod bearings with a newly designed solution to fix this once and for all. Such short-sightedness to let this linger.

I believe there's a theory going around that everyone involved settled with an NDA or something. I haven't seen any updates since 2017 or 18.

[DrivingPassion]

Originally Posted by ItsGary

I believe there's a theory going around that everyone involved settled with an NDA or something. I haven't seen any updates since 2017 or 18.

Wow, so they used money to shut the mouths?

[ItsGary]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

Wow, so they used money to shut the mouths?

Again, it's just a theory. Doesn't mean it's true. We don't know what has happened

[houston]

When I was dealing with BMW NA they offered to take a percentage off of the replacement motor (I was less than a year out of warranty and at 17k miles). If I accepted the agreement I would not be permitted to tear down or evaluate the failure. The moment I had my MBP take care of this they took any offers off the table. There is no way on earth BMW doesn’t know this is a major issue. And people on this forum quoting “2%” on failure based on just this thread are ridiculous. That’s just denial or people trying to keep the resale prices from being tainted by such a high risk/high cost flaw

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by houston

When I was dealing with BMW NA they offered to take a percentage off of the replacement motor (I was less than a year out of warranty and at 17k miles). If I accepted the agreement I would not be permitted to tear down or evaluate the failure. The moment I had my MBP take care of this they took any offers off the table. There is no way on earth BMW doesn’t know this is a major issue. And people on this forum quoting “2%” on failure based on just this thread are ridiculous. That’s just denial or people trying to keep the resale prices from being tainted by such a high risk/high cost flaw

I remember your situation from in 2016 ....Well said Sir !

[cannga]

Sorry - repost in this more appropriate thread: Questions for the experts (or anyone) please (I'm new to this and have not been able to find answer.). My car is 2011 M3 DCT; planning to have rod bearings done. Question is when, and I'm thinking about doing it now at 44k miles. Thanks in advance.

1. Do you think a big factor is how much car has spent around red line? It seems very possible to me this is why damage occurs even in low mileage car (a high rpm event). Porsche in-car CPU actually keeps over rev events in memory - no such thing in M3?

2. Any opinion on incident of blown engine or severity of bearing damage in DCT versus Manual? In as much as DCT in auto mode shifts automatically below red line (except for those who use manual mode of course), if above is true incident might be less with DCT car.

3. Have there been many inspections of the BE etc bearings after say 20-30k miles? Are they completely free of sign of damage?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by cannga

Sorry - repost in this more appropriate thread: Questions for the experts (or anyone) please (I'm new to this and have not been able to find answer.). My car is 2011 M3 DCT; planning to have rod bearings done. Question is when, and I'm thinking about doing it now at 44k miles. Thanks in advance.

1. Do you think a big factor is how much car has spent around red line? It seems very possible to me this is why damage occurs even in low mileage car (a high rpm event). Porsche in-car CPU actually keeps over rev events in memory - no such thing in M3?

2. Any opinion on incident of blown engine or severity of bearing damage in DCT versus Manual? In as much as DCT in auto mode shifts automatically below red line (except for those who use manual mode of course), if above is true incident might be less with DCT car.

3. Have there been many inspections of the BE etc bearings after say 20-30k miles? Are they completely free of sign of damage?

Don't think there are much more answers than you already received from pbonsalb in previous post.
On your first/additional question reg when: nobody but you can decide, look at the thread and you'll see most are worn regardless of mileage but still hold up, regardless of mileage (well, 100-150k anyway).
When I replaced mine (37k) my thinking was, will cost the same regardless when I do it so might as well right away to limit risk + peace of mind.
If you plan to keep the car and are bothered by the RB, just get it done.

[pbonsalb]

What scared me was the “lottery” — even low mileage gently driven motors have failed. And removed bearings have sometimes looked worse on 30k motors than on 90k motors. There is definitely a risk, and if you take the risk and are unlucky, it’s a $10k repair if you DIY and $15-20k if you use a shop.

Still, the risk is small — my guesstimate is that maybe 1% of motors have failed and maybe 10% have had preventative maintenance rod bearing replacements. That means 90% seem to be driving fine. The worrying part is that at least 90% of the replaced bearings look prematurely worn. If most looked good, I would not worry. But the opposite is true. That suggests the number of engine failures should increase. However, that does not yet seem to be happening.

Each owner has to decide whether to do anything. If I bought one of these cars used and out of warranty, I would replace the rod bearings.

[cannga]

Thanks guys. I understand completely the reasoning, given the predicaments we owners find ourselves in. I plan to replace, the only hesitation stems from the performance of the after-market bearing itself (what if they fail).

Back to one point for the sake of discussion (I know, it doesn't change anything): I am surprised that discussion has not concentrated on high rev or over rev events as cause. If the issue is tight tolerance, and we know metals expand when hot, and heat damage is the source of many engine's ills, it seems to me to be a likely cause. IOW, could we link two unique features of S65?
1. among highest rpm limit in production cars
2. highest number of rod bearing failure

I was hoping to see a breakdown of engine failures in DCT vs manual cars, as I think over rev might be more likely in manual transmission cars. But I assume there is no such breakdown in this registry?

[pbonsalb]

Other engines rev to 8000. Honda S2000, Porsche GT3, Audi RS5 and R8, E46 M3, Mustang GT350.

Again, people have thought about all the simple and obvious explanations like rpm, oil, fuel, cold start, driving habits. You can read it all if you search. I have been following discussions here for years. No common denominator has been found. The best explanation thus far is tight clearance, perhaps made worse by some engines having internal parts that are at the end of the range, which together stack up to reduce clearance on already tight bearings.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by cannga

Thanks guys. I understand completely the reasoning, given the predicaments we owners find ourselves in. I plan to replace, the only hesitation stems from the performance of the after-market bearing itself (what if they fail).

Back to one point for the sake of discussion (I know, it doesn't change anything): I am surprised that discussion has not concentrated on high rev or over rev events as cause. If the issue is tight tolerance, and we know metals expand when hot, and heat damage is the source of many engine's ills, it seems to me to be a likely cause. IOW, could we link two unique features of S65?
1. among highest rpm limit in production cars
2. highest number of rod bearing failure

I was hoping to see a breakdown of engine failures in DCT vs manual cars, as I think over rev might be more likely in manual transmission cars. But I assume there is no such breakdown in this registry?

My suggestion to you would be to review all of the background and technical information found on BE's website, as well as KING, and Clevite's sites. By doing so you will better understand the purpose of bearings, their design, and this engine's flaw. You will make your own assumption and will likely come to the same conclusion that the rest of us who understand the issue have- it boils down to a poorly specified bearing clearance, and tolerance stacking.

Thermal expansion is not a culprit here- the components in question are all steel- their expansion rates are not dissimilar. As far as high rpm, that is also a non issue in a functional hydrodynamic bearing as long as there is adequate oil pressure to maintain the oil wedge (lack of bearing/oil clearance can allow the oil wedge to be overcome and that stems back to the issue).

There's no breakdown necessary showing failures in DCT vs manual because not only is it irrelevant to bearing wear, but they built far more DCT than manuals, which would end up perpetuating the false impression than DCT's are more hazardous to bearings than manuals.

Every wear concept has been debated and picked apart for almost ten years now. The only one that works out and has stood the test of time is a spec that's too tight, and tolerance stacking.

[byroncheung]

Originally Posted by cannga

Thanks guys. I understand completely the reasoning, given the predicaments we owners find ourselves in. I plan to replace, the only hesitation stems from the performance of the after-market bearing itself (what if they fail).

Back to one point for the sake of discussion (I know, it doesn't change anything): I am surprised that discussion has not concentrated on high rev or over rev events as cause. If the issue is tight tolerance, and we know metals expand when hot, and heat damage is the source of many engine's ills, it seems to me to be a likely cause. IOW, could we link two unique features of S65?
1. among highest rpm limit in production cars
2. highest number of rod bearing failure

I was hoping to see a breakdown of engine failures in DCT vs manual cars, as I think over rev might be more likely in manual transmission cars. But I assume there is no such breakdown in this registry?

I have seen someone compiled a spread sheet of cars throwing rods and bunch of characteristics of the cars - mileages, location (weather), dct/manual, year, etc. I downloaded that spreadsheet myself at some point and looked at it. No statistic significance was detected linked to those attributes.

[DrivingPassion]

I think one should also consider the fact that there is a conflict of interest to sell rod bearings.
Not aiming at the super platinum/gold/diamond sponsors.
Just saying ...

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by DrivingPassion

I think one should also consider the fact that there is a conflict of interest to sell rod bearings.
Not aiming at the super platinum/gold/diamond sponsors.
Just saying ...

No way there are people onboard who try to make business on rod shells.