|
|
04-04-2014, 05:00 AM | #45 | |
Brigadier General
2511
Rep 4,381
Posts |
Quote:
I also understand that the oil pump feeds the low pressure VANOS and the timing chain tensioners so in normal operation the function (in part) of the pressure control valve is to ensure that the VANOS and timing chain tensioners receive oil at an optimal pressure. What the effect of using a lighter weight oil would be in a lubrication system designed to run with a 10W60 oil is good question - hopefully it wouldn't have an unintended negative consequence on the VANOS and timing chain operation if it ran at a lower pressure when running at the preset volume flow rate. Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 04-04-2014 at 06:58 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 08:37 AM | #46 | |
Stop the hate, get a V8
3850
Rep 8,625
Posts |
Quote:
Worth noting is that Mobil 1 0w40, for example, has HTHSV of 3.8. That is a measure of its viscosity at 150 C, which is a rough approximation of the oil's temperature in operation since the oil spikes that hot in areas like bearings. TWS has an HTHSV of 5.3, making it roughly 30% thicker in operation. So I would say yes, oil will get to nooks and crannies faster if you have a lower HTHS. There is also the notion of cold pumpability (CCS and MRV), but that's measured differently for a 0w40 versus 10w60 so it's tough to directly compare them.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 09:07 AM | #47 |
Lieutenant Colonel
233
Rep 1,673
Posts |
I will throw a few things out there. Because the oil pump is driven off the crankshaft it is impossible for it to control both flow and pressure independent of each other. The pump has a bypass circuit just like every other pump on the market. The bypass dumps back to the suction side of the pump. As rpm increase so does the pressure and that is dictated off the spring pack. The pressure is set from factory and does not change unless someone takes it apart and changes it manually. The pump can regulate flow in the same manner as new variable vane ac compressors. However the pressure still remains the same.
Because the pump is crank driven it always looks for a set pressure. When filling with a lighter oil the pressure will naturally drop. The pump can compensate for that and pick up the flow. Therefore, because the relief valve is always looking to a set pressure the flow is increased to maintain that pressure. Myself and others have logged the oil pressure while using lighter oils and the proof is in the gauge. At 210 on the oil the idle presure is maybe 3psi lower on average. The running pressure is the same from 0-40 to the 10-60. We have tested on many different engine the pressure difference of lighter oils. If the pump did not compensate, and that is what it is designed to do there would be lower running and much lower idle pressure. If the pump was a normal pump like in a small chevy 350 then yes pressure would be down because of the thinner oil. We are lucky to have a oil pump like we do because it virtually guarantees the correct pressure. So in conclusion because of the type of pump we have thinner oil will equal more flow due to continual pressure.
__________________
Electronics Junkie, Engine Builder.
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 09:38 AM | #48 |
Brigadier General
2511
Rep 4,381
Posts |
Is not the whole point of using a volume flow-controlled oil pump is that it regulates the oil output primarily by volume and secondarily by pressure? The volume flow control mechanism is built into the pump and dumps excess volume back into the system while the pressure control valve is downstream and dumps excess pressure back into the system.
It would make sense that in order to provide a fixed level of oil pressure to the Vanos that the oil pressure produced by the pump would almost always be above the pressure regulation valve setting (except perhaps at start up and tick over where the VANOS remains in the normal setting) in which case a thinner oil ought to give a higher flow rate. However the system will have been optimized for the flow rate produced when using the OEM oil so it is questionable what the benefit would be of having a higher flow rate (or even what the downsides might be). Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 04-04-2014 at 09:48 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 09:51 AM | #49 |
Major
174
Rep 1,246
Posts
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bellevue, WA
|
Apparently you can be a chemical engineer and a retard at the same time. Congrats on your "High Functioning" status.
BMW used 10w60 strictly for accounting purposes/free maintenance purposes. |
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 10:07 AM | #50 |
Banned
42
Rep 1,463
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 11:07 AM | #51 |
Stop the hate, get a V8
3850
Rep 8,625
Posts |
He's implying that 10w60 was selected because it can tolerate longer change intervals, meaning fewer free oil changes for BMW to perform.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP |
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 01:14 PM | #53 |
Lieutenant Colonel
233
Rep 1,673
Posts |
I agree but that is half the people on this forum. Grade "A"
__________________
Electronics Junkie, Engine Builder.
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 02:29 PM | #54 |
Stop the hate, get a V8
3850
Rep 8,625
Posts |
Well, it's the Internet. My expectations are fairly low, so I'm rarely ticked off by people online.
__________________
Now: 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, 2021 AMG C63 S sedan
Past: 2011.5 M3 sedan ZCP |
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 03:08 PM | #55 | |
Major
174
Rep 1,246
Posts
Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Bellevue, WA
|
Quote:
Yep, you well researched people are wrong because I'm a chemical engineer! Game. Set. Match. DERRR! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-04-2014, 06:03 PM | #56 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
427
Rep 1,947
Posts |
Quote:
2) Can you even explain what that statement means and how it relates to the VANOS? What part of the VANOS cares about volume of oil going through it with respect to it's operation? Are you saying the VANOS regulates cam timing based on oil volume passing through it? If not, then the statement doesn't make any sense to me at all. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 04:21 AM | #57 |
Lieutenant Colonel
168
Rep 1,792
Posts |
What kind of car does OP drive?
And we never said anything about flowing more or less, but one does provide better lubrication especially when cold for the leaded bearings. |
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 05:23 AM | #58 | |
Brigadier General
2511
Rep 4,381
Posts |
Quote:
2/ It doesn't relate to the VANOS, as you note the VANOS doesn't care about the flow rate only pressure. [1] unless the oil weight was too light. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 10:28 AM | #59 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
427
Rep 1,947
Posts |
Quote:
I'm trying to grasp is the mere concept that the VANOS was "optimized" around 10W60 in the first place. That doesn't make any sense to me. So here's what I want to see for an explanation. Tell me how the VANOS operates with 10W60 -- I'm specifically looking for the role that the properties of 10W60 play in this function. Then replace it with 0W40 and tell me how the operation differs. A theoretical explanation is just fine as I know data doesn't exist for this. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 10:43 AM | #60 | |
Brigadier General
514
Rep 3,482
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2011 e90 M3 Space Grey DCT ZCP- eAs, BMW Performance, Agency Power, Macht Schnell, iND, Milltek, Volk, Challenge, Stoptech, Ohlins
BMWCCA:518970 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 12:11 PM | #61 | ||
Grease Monkey
293
Rep 2,646
Posts
Drives: 2011 E90 M3,1994 Euro E36 M3/4
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada
|
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 12:57 PM | #63 | |
Brigadier General
2511
Rep 4,381
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 01:19 PM | #64 |
Brigadier General
514
Rep 3,482
Posts |
Hmmm my bad. Must have overlooked that.
__________________
2011 e90 M3 Space Grey DCT ZCP- eAs, BMW Performance, Agency Power, Macht Schnell, iND, Milltek, Volk, Challenge, Stoptech, Ohlins
BMWCCA:518970 |
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 02:03 PM | #65 | |
Lieutenant General
609
Rep 10,407
Posts |
Quote:
Now that being said, the system is also inherently robust to changes in viscosity - it must be since oil viscosity changes with age, temperature, contamination, etc.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK | | Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors | | Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels | | XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit | |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-05-2014, 02:37 PM | #66 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
427
Rep 1,947
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Bookmarks |
|
|