2008 BMW M3 beats a Carrera S on the Nurburgring

[swamp2]

Finally, I squeezed an opinion out of you. Thanks for engaging and for a good reply!

Originally Posted by devo

Okay....I'll bite. Your response to my initial post was a little abrasive and dismissive to many of my points. Each of us has an opinion, but you seem to take offense to mine.

Absolutely not, no offense take, just a different opinion and different facts chosen to make my points.

Originally Posted by devo

If you want to take the position that there will always be a better car around the corner, so be it. I am of the same belief. I was mearly pointing out that Porsche's HP bump is immediate (as in MY2008) and that the 998 will be out by 2010, which will likely be fall 2009; that's not far away. So, in my opinion, Porsche has BMW's threat answered in rather short fashion.

My point still applies. P may one up BMW but at the time of release BMW seems to have the performance jump on P and for a lot less $.

Originally Posted by devo

Do I think that a 997 911S is worth $20k+ more than a E92 M3...no, but it IS subjective to the buyer and you DO get what you pay for. And, you tout the M's brakes. Sorry, but BMW typically falls short in the braking department when compared to Porsche. You can't tell me that the M's brakes are even in the same league as Porsche's big Reds.

I'll still argue you don't. The brakes alone don't make up for the price difference. And as much as P brakes are legendary/phenomenal I don't care what they look like as long as the BMW brakes actually perform. We have very limited data on the difference in brake performance at the time but in what we do have, the BMW is superior. On top of all that brakes are not the only aspect of a performance car. Tunability is clearly on the M's side

Originally Posted by devo

As far as the Ring times. Again, sorry if this offends you but I don't believe for a minute that the M is going to run a sub 8 min. lap. As the laps continue the brakes will fade and the lap times will grow. Do you ever hear of a mag/rag tester or anyone else, for that matter, complain about Porsche's brakes. If they do, it's because they are complaining about the ridiculous cost of the fantastic ceramic brakes.

Our great Walter R. ran the ring in a 7:59 with a 997S with the Euro only 20mm/LSD setup. The S in basic form is more of a race car than the M is intended to be, so I really don't think that the M will match or beat that. (Unless, some fluke rag tester fabricates an realistic time.)

No offense at all! The best and most unbiased times to use are those of Sport Auto. In SA the 911S time is 8:05. The best official time from BMW mouths yet is 8:09, but a BMW engineer said directly that the M3 WILL best the 911S. We will all have to wait and see. No one can claim a victory here yet. However, if I was a die hard P fan I'd be shakin in my shoes.

Originally Posted by devo

Lastly, if you polled everyone and had them vote for their favorite car. The choices would be limited to the M3 and the 997S with price nor resale NOT being a consideration whatsoever, I am confident that the 911 would win hands down. Of course, everyone would have to vote with an unbiased opinion.

I don't give a rats ass what car is most popular by voting, period. Neither should a true performance buff.

Originally Posted by devo

Cheers back...brother.

Thanks for the expansion of your points. Let the good friendly discussion/debate continue! Cheers again.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Finally, I squeezed an opinion out of you. Thanks for engaging and for a good reply!



Absolutely not, no offense take, just a different opinion and different facts chosen to make my points.



My point still applies. P may one up BMW but at the time of release BMW seems to have the performance jump on P and for a lot less $.



I'll still argue you don't. The brakes alone don't make up for the price difference. And as much as P brakes are legendary/phenomenal I don't care what they look like as long as the BMW brakes actually perform. We have very limited data on the difference in brake performance at the time but in what we do have, the BMW is superior. On top of all that brakes are not the only aspect of a performance car. Tunability is clearly on the M's side



No offense at all! The best and most unbiased times to use are those of Sport Auto. In SA the 911S time is 8:05. The best official time from BMW mouths yet is 8:09, but a BMW engineer said directly that the M3 WILL best the 911S. We will all have to wait and see. No one can claim a victory here yet. However, if I was a die hard P fan I'd be shakin in my shoes.



I don't give a rats ass what car is most popular by voting, period. Neither should a true performance buff.



Thanks for the expansion of your points. Let the good friendly discussion/debate continue! Cheers again.

I really don't care about a couple of seconds over a lengthy road course. It means nothing on the street; except for novice bragging rights. Not many cars can give you the feedback of a 911. That's my opinion.

You keep referring to the price diff. I am not debating that with you. My point was that, if cost were not a consideration, the 911 is a better car. And, I am not concerned about yor rat's ass or that your dad can beat up my dad. You are clearly missing my point.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

I really don't care about a couple of seconds over a lengthy road course. It means nothing on the street; except for novice bragging rights. Not many cars can give you the feedback of a 911. That's my opinion.

You keep referring to the price diff. I am not debating that with you. My point was that, if cost were not a consideration, the 911 is a better car. And, I am not concerned about yor rat's ass or that your dad can beat up my dad. You are clearly missing my point.

Sure ring times don't mean all that much on the street, especially with either of us driving, right ? However, the purpose of such specs is to judge the car under race like conditions, not the driver. I think (as most enthusiasts do) that the ring lap time is a key figure in what makes one performance car "better" than another.

Driving feedback is legendary on the 911, agreed, however it is also exactly the same - legendary - on the M3. Furthermore, this particular point is subjective enough that the who's better here may never be settled.

I still do not believe that price independent the 911 is a better car than the new M3. We have talked brakes - jury is out, one test goes to the M3, we have talked ring times and it looks like the 911S will be upset there and finally we have 0-200km/hr where the M3 wins again! How many "contests" will the M have to prove superior to the 911 (or 911S) in order for you to consider it a "better" car. Sounds to me like even if it won every imaginable contest it still would not be a better car. This strikes of fan boy to me...

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Sure ring times don't mean all that much on the street, especially with either of us driving, right ? However, the purpose of such specs is to judge the car under race like conditions, not the driver. I think (as most enthusiasts do) that the ring lap time is a key figure in what makes one performance car "better" than another.

Driving feedback is legendary on the 911, agreed, however it is also exactly the same - legendary - on the M3. Furthermore, this particular point is subjective enough that the who's better here may never be settled.

I still do not believe that price independent the 911 is a better car than the new M3. We have talked brakes - jury is out, one test goes to the M3, we have talked ring times and it looks like the 911S will be upset there and finally we have 0-200km/hr where the M3 wins again! How many "contests" will the M have to prove superior to the 911 (or 911S) in order for you to consider it a "better" car. Sounds to me like even if it won every imaginable contest it still would not be a better car. This strikes of fan boy to me...

There has been zero hard evidence as of yet that the BMW is better than a 911S. Simply, it is not, in fit, finish, or in the performance dept. And, AGAIN, that is against a 3 year old car. Add 20-25 HP in 2008 when the M arrives and any speed edge you think that the M may have is gone. You claim that the M brakes are better, they are, simply, not. BMW doesn't even claim to beat the S. You tout ring times; an 8:10 (maybe for the M v. a 7:59 w/LSD or 8:05 w/O for the S. In the racing world that is years ahead. The M is a direct competitor to the 911 not the S. But, if you like, YOU WIN. Do you feel better?

Lastly, MT suggests that the M will base @ $63; very bad move for BMW-if true. A fully optioned car will be easily $70K. That is getting to close to Porsche territory. When you have the opportunity spend some real time in a 911S or turbo and I mean real time, like a couple of months. The car will always stay with you. I have had two M3's which were great cars, but they were no Porsche. Sorry iof I have offended anyone.

[RussianM3_dude]

Porsches are great, but for me they just don't have the low down power. 350 hp for a 130K CHF car is just a rip-off as are Porsche options.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

There has been zero hard evidence as of yet that the BMW is better than a 911S. Simply, it is not, in fit, finish, or in the performance dept. And, AGAIN, that is against a 3 year old car. Add 20-25 HP in 2008 when the M arrives and any speed edge you think that the M may have is gone. You claim that the M brakes are better, they are, simply, not. BMW doesn't even claim to beat the S. You tout ring times; an 8:10 (maybe for the M v. a 7:59 w/LSD or 8:05 w/O for the S. In the racing world that is years ahead. The M is a direct competitor to the 911 not the S. But, if you like, YOU WIN. Do you feel better?

Lastly, MT suggests that the M will base @ $63; very bad move for BMW-if true. A fully optioned car will be easily $70K. That is getting to close to Porsche territory. When you have the opportunity spend some real time in a 911S or turbo and I mean real time, like a couple of months. The car will always stay with you. I have had two M3's which were great cars, but they were no Porsche. Sorry iof I have offended anyone.

"Zero hard evidence"? Are you blind?, kidding?, 0-200km/hr time and braking from 100km/h - 0 the M3 wins both. Also, I never said the M brakes are better, period. Don't put words in my mouth. I always stated exactly the only fact we know and that is the official 100km/h - 0 distance. I mentioned that this isolated spec. was far from the entire big picture on brakes. Jury is out IMO on brakes, but it looks promising to me. As far as the ring time, there is evidence there too, just not hard evidence. Heresay from a BMW engineer and an allusion to besting the S by M boss Richter. Granted all of these isolated data points are a small subsets of the overall performance domain, but to say there is zero evidence is simply categorically false.

Fit and finish: Can easily be debated by those with much more hands on, up close and detailed knowledge of both cars in person than myself. Just compare a 335i to a 997. M3 will be practically identical to the 335i in fit and finish. Anyone wan't to chime in on this one?? My cursory examinations of both cars would place fit and finish fairly close though. Further on that fit and finish are not really performance specs and although they are very important to me personally as long as they are excellent I don't need "the best". I'd give up a bit of F&F to gain performance!

I guess we won't ever really agree on which cars should be compared. Sure the new M3 is a newer model and a newer design that the current 997. However, when they are both out, that is the most fair comparo you can make. Anything else before the new model P car is out is unfair IMO. Seems like my point is that if the M bests the current S, it will be a great accomplishment, whereas to you, if the M3 bests the current S, then that doesn't really matter - what is really important is that the new S will come out and best the M back. That may be a fair argument WHEN THAT CAR IS RELEASED but before the fact, I (and I think most) would agree, it just does not matter and is not a fair comparison. If you took the extreme on this point you would be comparing a 2014 997 to a 2010 M3 or something like that - UNFAIR.

I would love to spend a lot more time with a 997S, but for me the fact that the M3 will probably out perform, underprice the S and do it with a nice trunk, 4 seats and DCT will mean a 997 is not in my future. Heck I don't care if the price is close to 997 territory, again to me it is performance per dollar and this is why in these competitive times P is not worth the premium to me.

I absolutely do not think you have offended anyone here, certainly not me. I think your evidence is often absent or weak and we can't seem to present our cases in the same way, but I still enjoy the discussion. It will be a great "battle" of these two cars - M3 vs. the 997 and vs. the 997S.

[ILC32]

Originally Posted by swamp2

"Zero hard evidence"?
As far as the ring time, there is evidence there too, just not hard evidence. Heresay from a BMW engineer and an allusion to besting the S by M boss Richter.

A correction: Richter has said only that he can do 8:10 while carrying on a conversation. I do not think he has said the M3 will beat the 997S on the ring. That statement reportedly came from a BMW engineer.

The 997S is a fantastic car. If the performance of the two cars are roughly equal, and price of the M3 ends up being roughly the same as a one or two year old 997S (i.e., $75-80k), then it will be a difficult decision (for me at least) whether to get the 997S rather than the M3.

One the one hand and in favor of the M3, there is much to be said for the pleasure of specifying a new car exactly the way you want it and knowing it has not been abused by anyone (except yourself). In favor of the 997S, it is a beautiful "iconic" car and of course on a used model, the first owner will have already eaten the first year depreciation.

Again -- this is if performance is roughly equal. If the performance of the M3 is not as good in an overall sense as the 997S, then as far as I am concerned, the M3 will have to be significantly less expensive than a one or two year old 997S.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

"Zero hard evidence"? Are you blind?, kidding?, 0-200km/hr time and braking from 100km/h - 0 the M3 wins both. Also, I never said the M brakes are better, period. Don't put words in my mouth. I always stated exactly the only fact we know and that is the official 100km/h - 0 distance. I mentioned that this isolated spec. was far from the entire big picture on brakes. Jury is out IMO on brakes, but it looks promising to me. As far as the ring time, there is evidence there too, just not hard evidence. Heresay from a BMW engineer and an allusion to besting the S by M boss Richter. Granted all of these isolated data points are a small subsets of the overall performance domain, but to say there is zero evidence is simply categorically false.

Fit and finish: Can easily be debated by those with much more hands on, up close and detailed knowledge of both cars in person than myself. Just compare a 335i to a 997. M3 will be practically identical to the 335i in fit and finish. Anyone wan't to chime in on this one?? My cursory examinations of both cars would place fit and finish fairly close though. Further on that fit and finish are not really performance specs and although they are very important to me personally as long as they are excellent I don't need "the best". I'd give up a bit of F&F to gain performance!

I guess we won't ever really agree on which cars should be compared. Sure the new M3 is a newer model and a newer design that the current 997. However, when they are both out, that is the most fair comparo you can make. Anything else before the new model P car is out is unfair IMO. Seems like my point is that if the M bests the current S, it will be a great accomplishment, whereas to you, if the M3 bests the current S, then that doesn't really matter - what is really important is that the new S will come out and best the M back. That may be a fair argument WHEN THAT CAR IS RELEASED but before the fact, I (and I think most) would agree, it just does not matter and is not a fair comparison. If you took the extreme on this point you would be comparing a 2014 997 to a 2010 M3 or something like that - UNFAIR.

I would love to spend a lot more time with a 997S, but for me the fact that the M3 will probably out perform, underprice the S and do it with a nice trunk, 4 seats and DCT will mean a 997 is not in my future. Heck I don't care if the price is close to 997 territory, again to me it is performance per dollar and this is why in these competitive times P is not worth the premium to me.

I absolutely do not think you have offended anyone here, certainly not me. I think your evidence is often absent or weak and we can't seem to present our cases in the same way, but I still enjoy the discussion. It will be a great "battle" of these two cars - M3 vs. the 997 and vs. the 997S.

You should compare the M-which isn't even out yet-to the 2008 911S, it is only fair. So, expect 375-380 HP. Also, if you are comparing a Euro M3, then add the HP and the 20mm suspension with LSD. I am, and have been, comparing the cars, not the price. I have agreed with you from the outset that the Porshce's are priced too high. But, for more money you get more, imo. Do you get $20 more...NO. Again: 2008 M3 v. 2008 911S (375 HP w/ LSD Euro spec.) The Porsche will beat the M in every category. Is it worth the ridiculously high cost of admission...SUBJECTIVE. If money were no object, the 2008 911S will clearly be a better performer. Trunks and space, who cares, it's a sports car. And, your times are skewed. Real street tests yield a faster 911S (2008).

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. All you do is trash talk. I can tell from your posts, that you're a mag driver. You've probably owned one M and a few Hondas with rear wings and believe you know all. Read my psots again until you understand what I am saying. If the M could beat the S, I would give it the kudos it deserves. Stop using the price as your reason. I agree with you on this one. Even if it doesn't beat the S, it will be a fantastic car. I am confident that the CSL will put the Porsche in catch up mode, but not the FUTURE e92, basic M.

[2002 Tii]

Is the new M3 better than 997S? No one can answer that question untill WE drive both cars. At that point it becomes an individual choice. To argue vigorously that M3 is better without actually ever driving it or because it has a few seconds advantage on a race track, does not seem sensible, at least not to me. The main reason being; driving a GT3 at 70% is hell of a lot more satisfying than driving a corvette at its highest limit. And on paper the Vette may put a second or two on the Porsche.
Lastly, I have owned both the 911 (a few) and M3, in terms of quality of fabrication the 911 is the superior. Also in terms of exclusivity the 911 lives in a different catagory.

[devo]

Originally Posted by 2002 Tii

Is the new M3 better than 997S? No one can answer that question untill WE drive both cars. At that point it becomes an individual choice. To argue vigorously that M3 is better without actually ever driving it or because it has a few seconds advantage on a race track, does not seem sensible, at least not to me. The main reason being; driving a GT3 at 70% is hell of a lot more satisfying than driving a corvette at its highest limit. And on paper the Vette may put a second or two on the Porsche.
Lastly, I have owned both the 911 (a few) and M3, in terms of quality of fabrication the 911 is the superior. Also in terms of exclusivity the 911 lives in a different catagory.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by RussianM3_dude

Porsches are great, but for me they just don't have the low down power. 350 hp for a 130K CHF car is just a rip-off as are Porsche options.

Other than the POS RS4 that you drive, do you like any car or are you just going to be the resident hater on this forum?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

You should compare the M-which isn't even out yet-to the 2008 911S, it is only fair. So, expect 375-380 HP. Also, if you are comparing a Euro M3, then add the HP and the 20mm suspension with LSD. I am, and have been, comparing the cars, not the price. I have agreed with you from the outset that the Porshce's are priced too high. But, for more money you get more, imo. Do you get $20 more...NO. Again: 2008 M3 v. 2008 911S (375 HP w/ LSD Euro spec.) The Porsche will beat the M in every category. Is it worth the ridiculously high cost of admission...SUBJECTIVE. If money were no object, the 2008 911S will clearly be a better performer. Trunks and space, who cares, it's a sports car. And, your times are skewed. Real street tests yield a faster 911S (2008).

Talk about putting words in someone's mouth. All you do is trash talk. I can tell from your posts, that you're a mag driver. You've probably owned one M and a few Hondas with rear wings and believe you know all. Read my psots again until you understand what I am saying. If the M could beat the S, I would give it the kudos it deserves. Stop using the price as your reason. I agree with you on this one. Even if it doesn't beat the S, it will be a fantastic car. I am confident that the CSL will put the Porsche in catch up mode, but not the FUTURE e92, basic M.

Well I guess we are heading way off course. The insults and stabs at character and experience are very mature. IMO if you can't stick to the topic and keep it non-personal take a hike! It seems your poor behavior is only a response to losing control and losing a debate. Maybe you can point out my "trash talking". You haven't read enough of my posts. Maybe you can point out where I put words in someone elses mouth (you can't). I don't even know why I am going to go down the road of defense from you afer this childish display of insecurity and immaturtiy, but oh well, one better for me.

I have only owned 2 real sports cars, E36 and E46 M3s and I drive the wheels off of them, including some track work, driving shools and auto-X. I've been known to spend a bit of time in fast carts as well. I grew up driving in Alaska and have explored the extreme limits of forward and sideways traction on and off road on 2, 3 and 4 wheelers, snow machines, in snow, ice, mud, dirt and on pavement. Still there is about 1% of folks on 1% of these boards that is a good enough driver that they simply disregard magazine performance specs and tests. I like to read multiple sources and when possible drive the cars myself. Hmmm last but not least I have in fact owned a Honda (...an Acura Integra actually). It was my first new car and it was bone stock all the way except for some nice grippy tires. You know exactly where you can put your "winged Honda" comment.

I have never said the 911S is not an amazing car, so I'm not sure why you are getting all bent, it clearly is. Have I driven one much or driven one on a track, no, I don't need to lie about that. How do I know it is a great car, hmmm not very tricky if you can read. I've known 911's to be great for 20 years of automotive reading. How the hell do you know an F430 is an amazing car - have you driven one. Your "argument" (i.e. name calling) holds no water here.

Discussion over. No more begging from me to get your opinion and giving you a chance to debate intelligently when all you like to do is state your conclusion with no evidence then resort to immaturity.

[Epacy]

Swamp,

Didn't you just post this in the other thread where I was attacked?
I was going to respond saying you wouldn't layoff if someone personally attacked you.
It's hard to do, isn't it.

Originally Posted by swamp2

On the fighting: Guys let's try to keep it civil. We have enough to do to deal with haters, unjustified/unrealistic fan boys for other brands and crap mag. articles. I disagree with folks here all the time but I really try (don't succeed 100%) to keep the insults and personal attacks off the board. Just use real evidence, good references, your own opinions and experience and let the readers be the "judge". I guess we are probably all old enought that we don't need a lecture but at the same time it is getting a bit out of hand.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Swamp,

Didn't you just post this in the other thread where I was attacked?
I was going to respond saying you wouldn't layoff if someone personally attacked you.
It's hard to do, isn't it.

Yes I did post that. Yes it is hard not to go defensive. The difference is that I have resorted to defense, have kept it totally absent of insults, personal attacks and immaturity. By the way I think you handled the strong attacks on yourself quite well. Keep up the maturity, don't drop to their level.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Well I guess we are heading way off course. The insults and stabs at character and experience are very mature. IMO if you can't stick to the topic and keep it non-personal take a hike! It seems your poor behavior is only a response to losing control and losing a debate. Maybe you can point out my "trash talking". You haven't read enough of my posts. Maybe you can point out where I put words in someone elses mouth (you can't). I don't even know why I am going to go down the road of defense from you afer this childish display of insecurity and immaturtiy, but oh well, one better for me.

I have only owned 2 real sports cars, E36 and E46 M3s and I drive the wheels off of them, including some track work, driving shools and auto-X. I've been known to spend a bit of time in fast carts as well. I grew up driving in Alaska and have explored the extreme limits of forward and sideways traction on and off road on 2, 3 and 4 wheelers, snow machines, in snow, ice, mud, dirt and on pavement. Still there is about 1% of folks on 1% of these boards that is a good enough driver that they simply disregard magazine performance specs and tests. I like to read multiple sources and when possible drive the cars myself. Hmmm last but not least I have in fact owned a Honda (...an Acura Integra actually). It was my first new car and it was bone stock all the way except for some nice grippy tires. You know exactly where you can put your "winged Honda" comment.

I have never said the 911S is not an amazing car, so I'm not sure why you are getting all bent, it clearly is. Have I driven one much or driven one on a track, no, I don't need to lie about that. How do I know it is a great car, hmmm not very tricky if you can read. I've known 911's to be great for 20 years of automotive reading. How the hell do you know an F430 is an amazing car - have you driven one. Your "argument" (i.e. name calling) holds no water here.

Discussion over. No more begging from me to get your opinion and giving you a chance to debate intelligently when all you like to do is state your conclusion with no evidence then resort to immaturity.

I have taken your posts as confrontational. It is no excuse for a personal attack. I sincerely apologize for saying that you are a mag. driver and have likely owned rear winged Hondas. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy.

I stand behind everything else that I have posted.

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by swamp2

"Zero hard evidence"? Are you blind?, kidding?, 0-200km/hr time and braking from 100km/h - 0 the M3 wins both. Also, I never said the M brakes are better, period. Don't put words in my mouth. I always stated exactly the only fact we know and that is the official 100km/h - 0 distance. I mentioned that this isolated spec. was far from the entire big picture on brakes. Jury is out IMO on brakes, but it looks promising to me. As far as the ring time, there is evidence there too, just not hard evidence. Heresay from a BMW engineer and an allusion to besting the S by M boss Richter. Granted all of these isolated data points are a small subsets of the overall performance domain, but to say there is zero evidence is simply categorically false.

Fit and finish: Can easily be debated by those with much more hands on, up close and detailed knowledge of both cars in person than myself. Just compare a 335i to a 997. M3 will be practically identical to the 335i in fit and finish. Anyone wan't to chime in on this one?? My cursory examinations of both cars would place fit and finish fairly close though. Further on that fit and finish are not really performance specs and although they are very important to me personally as long as they are excellent I don't need "the best". I'd give up a bit of F&F to gain performance!

I guess we won't ever really agree on which cars should be compared. Sure the new M3 is a newer model and a newer design that the current 997. However, when they are both out, that is the most fair comparo you can make. Anything else before the new model P car is out is unfair IMO. Seems like my point is that if the M bests the current S, it will be a great accomplishment, whereas to you, if the M3 bests the current S, then that doesn't really matter - what is really important is that the new S will come out and best the M back. That may be a fair argument WHEN THAT CAR IS RELEASED but before the fact, I (and I think most) would agree, it just does not matter and is not a fair comparison. If you took the extreme on this point you would be comparing a 2014 997 to a 2010 M3 or something like that - UNFAIR.

I would love to spend a lot more time with a 997S, but for me the fact that the M3 will probably out perform, underprice the S and do it with a nice trunk, 4 seats and DCT will mean a 997 is not in my future. Heck I don't care if the price is close to 997 territory, again to me it is performance per dollar and this is why in these competitive times P is not worth the premium to me.

I absolutely do not think you have offended anyone here, certainly not me. I think your evidence is often absent or weak and we can't seem to present our cases in the same way, but I still enjoy the discussion. It will be a great "battle" of these two cars - M3 vs. the 997 and vs. the 997S.

Please don't compare the Fit & Finish of our BMW's to the Porsches. There is no comparison.

The new M3 is a remarkable car for the price! But, your touting figures and performance #'s but don't give links or proof. Where did the M3 out break the venrebale Porsche 911...??


I am currently looking at purchasing the new M3, Cayman S or the 335(modded). Had the new M3 been 200lbs lighter and not such a pig I'd almost certainly have a deposit down on one. The second thing that really upsets me is that the V8 doesnt use DFi and gets horrible gas mileage.

Now, gas mileage isn't important to me, but what it represents is an INEFFECIENT engine..! Thats where the 335's biturbo (+PROcede) comes in. 30/31MPG on the highways and supposedly better feedback than the new M's. Throw a LSD in the 335 and your right on the M's tail(or better) for alot less and you don't have to deal with all that quasi techno crap in the new M.

BMW is going backwards, because the M was about performance. The price difference of the M3 over the 335 should've been in space age meterial to reduce the pigs weight by 200 ~ 300lbs, not on a digital suspension that messages my ass while I drive. It also needs more toque to handle the weight of the car. (again DFI)

Almost every review says the "touch" is lost, there is no iconic feedback from the steering wheel, etc. Hopefully BMW has read these reviews and using them to figure out what needs to be done......


.....and they can start with designing a better interior. This open bench seat atmosphere is a big let down. The E46's interior was awsome! What Engineer at BMW decided to remove that feel of being a pilot (driver-centric) and place this sailboat themed crap in the BMW's..?

Cayman S, better handling, fit & finish, interior and fun factor. Could use a little more interior stuff liek better sound deadening meterial from the mid-engine. A real radio that doesnt suck ballz and a tad more toque (+35ft-lbs).


BMW's M3 only compitition are those 2 other cars and possible the new Mercedes. But trying to compare it to the 911 is a joke.







-Garrett

[M3shogun]

i believe the M was made to COMPETE with the 997S and not exactly beat it in specs. in other words if they were in a ALMS race for example, it has the goods and a chance to beat the porsche.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

I have taken your posts as confrontational. It is no excuse for a personal attack. I sincerely apologize for saying that you are a mag. driver and have likely owned rear winged Hondas. I wouldn't wish that on my worse enemy.

I stand behind everything else that I have posted.

Thanks devo, very cool and mature of you. I think we can continue this good debate as we learn more about the new M3 and the improved 911 model.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Please don't compare the Fit & Finish of our BMW's to the Porsches. There is no comparison.

And perhaps you can enlighten us with some evidence other than just stating it? Is it the material qualities, body gap sizes and uniformity, paint quality, button feel, ergonomics, comfort, interior trim gaps, etc., etc.?

Originally Posted by Garrett

The new M3 is a remarkable car for the price! But, your touting figures and performance #'s but don't give links or proof. Where did the M3 out break the venrebale Porsche 911...??

We don't know the price yet but most agree it will be <$60k USD base. I have posted the braking spec directly from the BMW press release in another thread. The information about the 8:10 and beating the 911S on the ring have been very well documented IN THIS THREAD. I have to ask, did you read the entire thread?

Originally Posted by Garrett

I am currently looking at purchasing the new M3, Cayman S or the 335(modded). Had the new M3 been 200lbs lighter and not such a pig I'd almost certainly have a deposit down on one. The second thing that really upsets me is that the V8 doesnt use DFi and gets horrible gas mileage.

The new V8 should absolutely have had DI, that was a big let down to me. The RS4 had it how many years ago... However, I think BMW had a reason not to include it - they are developing a second generation of the system and did not want to add cost to put old technology on the car. But indeed it likely could have offered more power and improved efficiency even using the 1st generation system so it should have been there. This is another big reason I say the M3 V8 is evolutionary whereas the RS4 V8 was revolutionary. That being said BMW has been very firm about the new M3 getting 8% better mileage than the E46 M3.

Originally Posted by Garrett

Now, gas mileage isn't important to me, but what it represents is an INEFFECIENT engine..! Thats where the 335's biturbo (+PROcede) comes in. 30/31MPG on the highways and supposedly better feedback than the new M's. Throw a LSD in the 335 and your right on the M's tail(or better) for alot less and you don't have to deal with all that quasi techno crap in the new M.

The modded 335i vs. M3 thing has been debated for months in excrutiating detail. Have you read those threads? From your post it does not sound like it. it is going to take WAY MORE than engine software and a diff to match, let alone exceed the M3. Also the 335i has almost all the exact same "quasi techno crap" and in some respects more compared to the M3. It has all the same stability control stuff and has lots of added electronics and mechanicals for the turbos. I guess if you count EDC (which gets fairly universal praise) and the variable steering boost as quasi techno crap you are right.

Originally Posted by Garrett

BMW is going backwards, because the M was about performance...It also needs more toque to handle the weight of the car.

So far the new car is spanking the old one in every area of performance. How is that "backwards" exactly? The "lack of torque" has been extensively discussed here and all over the internet. The lightweight engine and high-revving concept is a BMW design philosophy. When applied through careful tranny ratio selection there is ENORMOUS torque multiplication. Add an efficient, low loss, lightweight drivetrain and you maximize torque at the wheels. Engine torque is meaningless - only what gets to the wheels produces the "go". Do you really need 350 ft lb of torque when you have 0-60 in 4.4 without DCT and with a poor road surface? If you prefer the low rpm high torque philosophy you should obviously be shopping for a Vette or AMG. 420 hp, 8400 rpm, 7 speed M-DCT FTW!

Originally Posted by Garrett

Almost every review says the "touch" is lost, there is no iconic feedback from the steering wheel, etc. Hopefully BMW has read these reviews and using them to figure out what needs to be done......

Indeed this looks like it may be a problem. However much in the minority, there has been a report that says the E92 M3 out steers the E46 M3 and E46 M3 CSL. The jury is definitely out here. Have you read the post here which revisit the early early reviews of the E46 M3. Funny, they all sound EXACLTY like these initial E92 M3 reviews and look at the numbers and rep of the E46 M3.

Originally Posted by Garrett

But trying to compare it to the 911 is a joke.

BMW has made the comparison directly and explicity in it's sales brochure. I REALLY doubt they would do that if it did not outperform it is almost all performance regards. From the information thus far the M3 bests the 911S (0-60 accel and braking from 100km/h - 0). I'm sure it won't beat it in every component of every test but it will in more to come.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Please don't compare the Fit & Finish of our BMW's to the Porsches. There is no comparison.

The new M3 is a remarkable car for the price! But, your touting figures and performance #'s but don't give links or proof. Where did the M3 out break the venrebale Porsche 911...??


I am currently looking at purchasing the new M3, Cayman S or the 335(modded). Had the new M3 been 200lbs lighter and not such a pig I'd almost certainly have a deposit down on one. The second thing that really upsets me is that the V8 doesnt use DFi and gets horrible gas mileage.

Now, gas mileage isn't important to me, but what it represents is an INEFFECIENT engine..! Thats where the 335's biturbo (+PROcede) comes in. 30/31MPG on the highways and supposedly better feedback than the new M's. Throw a LSD in the 335 and your right on the M's tail(or better) for alot less and you don't have to deal with all that quasi techno crap in the new M.

BMW is going backwards, because the M was about performance. The price difference of the M3 over the 335 should've been in space age meterial to reduce the pigs weight by 200 ~ 300lbs, not on a digital suspension that messages my ass while I drive. It also needs more toque to handle the weight of the car. (again DFI)

Almost every review says the "touch" is lost, there is no iconic feedback from the steering wheel, etc. Hopefully BMW has read these reviews and using them to figure out what needs to be done......


.....and they can start with designing a better interior. This open bench seat atmosphere is a big let down. The E46's interior was awsome! What Engineer at BMW decided to remove that feel of being a pilot (driver-centric) and place this sailboat themed crap in the BMW's..?

Cayman S, better handling, fit & finish, interior and fun factor. Could use a little more interior stuff liek better sound deadening meterial from the mid-engine. A real radio that doesnt suck ballz and a tad more toque (+35ft-lbs).


BMW's M3 only compitition are those 2 other cars and possible the new Mercedes. But trying to compare it to the 911 is a joke.







-Garrett

I feel the same way brother, but it feels as though my post are falling on deaf ears. Your points echo many of mine. There has not been one bit of evidence that the M will beat the 997S at the ring; let alone a MY2008 997S. The only advantage the M has is it's price point. IMO, it's like saying that a 911 turbo should be compared to the F430. The tt may be quicker in some situations and may even run a fast ring lap, but it's no Ferrari; just like the M3 will be no 911S.

[devo]

[QUOTE=devo;1179891]I guess we won't ever really agree on which cars should be compared. Sure the new M3 is a newer model and a newer design that the current 997. However, when they are both out, that is the most fair comparo you can make. Anything else before the new model P car is out is unfair IMO. Seems like my point is that if the M bests the current S, it will be a great accomplishment, whereas to you, if the M3 bests the current S, then that doesn't really matter - what is really important is that the new S will come out and best the M back. That may be a fair argument WHEN THAT CAR IS RELEASED but before the fact, I (and I think most) would agree, it just does not matter and is not a fair comparison. If you took the extreme on this point you would be comparing a 2014 997 to a 2010 M3 or something like that - UNFAIR.

I would love to spend a lot more time with a 997S, but for me the fact that the M3 will probably out perform, (Quote)

MY2008 v. MY2008; that's the only fair comparison. If the M3 were to beat the MY2007 911S, I'd give it the kudos it deserves. I HAVE said this before. It wouldn't mean it was a better car, it would just deserve a lot more credit. Just like a Z06 is no BMW, even though it will smoke the new M3.

The M3 will not best the 911S at the Ring, and it's no Porsche.. It's just not in the same class.

[phoenixbmwlife]

So what is the offcial time for the (997) 911S since we know the official time for the M3?