2008 BMW M3 beats a Carrera S on the Nurburgring

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by MI6

JEEZ............an X5 did it in 7.50!!!!! Granted that's with a much more powerful engine but that is AMAZING!!!

Any idea how an X5 can beat the M5 and M6?????

Do you mean the X5 that Hans Stuck drove that had the McLaren F1 V12 engine with slicks?

Yah, I am worried about seeing one of those on the road.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by T Bone

The 911 has its roots in the Beetle which was created by Porsche when commissioned by Hitler....it is old, with the engine in the wrong place and not particularly safe (would you rather get T-boned in an M3 or 911?)

The 911's are iconic because they have been around since the 1960s.... The have always performed well...but if Audi / BMW / MB start doing dedicated sportscars and beat the 911s....kids start wanting a Z10 or an R8 etc... The die hard 911 fans will die off.

Competition is good. When BMW / Audi lights a fire underneath Porsche's ass....I look forward to their reaction.


BTW, have you guys seen the Panamera? Big pig.... Porsche needs to reinvent its product line.

It is irrelevant how the 911 came about. The point is that it came about and has been iconic for a long time for whatever reason (the reason is not worth pondering).

However, that doesn't mean that it will continue to be iconic. I agree that kids can be playing with R8s in a few years, but I doubt that will happen because R8 will beat the 911 on the ring. If it happens, it will have to do with something else.

Panamera does seem huge on pics indeed, like a crossover.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by lucid

It is irrelevant how the 911 came about. The point is that it came about and has been iconic for a long time for whatever reason (the reason is not worth pondering).

However, that doesn't mean that it will continue to be iconic. I agree that kids can be playing with R8s in a few years, but I doubt that will happen because R8 will beat the 911 on the ring. If it happens, it will have to do with something else.

Panamera does seem huge on pics indeed, like a crossover.

It does matter how a car is born..... The beetle was the peoples car so the rear engine layout made sense for a "roomy" people's car. It is not good for sportscars. Porsche has stuck to the rear engine layout since the 1930's....since Hitler!!

If Porsche had a mid-engine layout for the people's car, we wouldn't be having this discussion....

It is this staunch dedication to an inherently flawed sportscar design that drives me crazy about Porsche.....

In a single generation of cars, Porsche can swap the car to be mid engine, balance out the handling and allow room for a V8 / V10. Porsche has the experience to build killer sportscars but their DOGMA is preventing them from doing this...... I will NOT buy a Porsche until this changes....

Imagine a car that is a mix of the Carrera GT and the Cayman???

[lucid]

Originally Posted by T Bone

It does matter how a car is born..... The beetle was the peoples car so the rear engine layout made sense for a "roomy" people's car. It is not good for sportscars. Porsche has stuck to the rear engine layout since the 1930's....since Hitler!!

If Porsche had a mid-engine layout for the people's car, we wouldn't be having this discussion....

It is this staunch dedication to an inherently flawed sportscar design that drives me crazy about Porsche.....

In a single generation of cars, Porsche can swap the car to be mid engine, balance out the handling and allow room for a V8 / V10. Porsche has the experience to build killer sportscars but their DOGMA is preventing them from doing this...... I will NOT buy a Porsche until this changes....

Imagine a car that is a mix of the Carrera GT and the Cayman???

You are still debating performance. Of course Porsche can build a higher performing car. What I am saying is that in the case of the 911, people are responding not just to performance (as most people wouldn't even know how to judge performance) but also to something else, and that something else has kept Porsche alive for decades. I am not disagreeing with you; I am making a different point...

[devo]

m

Originally Posted by swamp2

1. OK well the 2014 M3 is going to cream the 2012 top of the line 911 variant...and my dad can beat up your dad...

2. The jury is not in on the brakes of the new car yet. BMW always torture tests on the ring so the problems with the E46 M3 brakes was odd. My brakes on my E36 M3 both in stock form and slightly upgraded have always been phenomenal. I have heard they really put some effort into brake cooling and the brakes in general on this car. I don't think what we have heard about brakes in the mini-reviews yet is sufficient to say the car has poor brakes. As you probably saw in my other post from 100km/h - 0 the new M3 does out brake the 911 AND Cayman S!

3. I love P-cars so don't call me a hater but you ABSOLUTELY do not get what you pay for with a Porsche. They have THE HIGHEST profit margin of any of the major manufcturers (ref). I'm sure you know what that means, you are not paying for the car itself, the engineering, marketing, tesing, R&D; you are paying the premium becuase they have a name.

4. Was there some reasoning in your post as to why the M3 can't/won't beat the S on the ring? If so I missed it.

By the way, if I could stomach or justify the price, I'd have a GT3 in my garage as well....

Relax and read my post again.

[ward]

Originally Posted by swamp2

3. I love P-cars so don't call me a hater but you ABSOLUTELY do not get what you pay for with a Porsche. They have THE HIGHEST profit margin of any of the major manufcturers (ref). I'm sure you know what that means, you are not paying for the car itself, the engineering, marketing, tesing, R&D; you are paying the premium becuase they have a name.

guess which maker is #2 in profit margin

hello pot, this is the kettle

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by MI6

JEEZ............an X5 did it in 7.50!!!!! Granted that's with a much more powerful engine but that is AMAZING!!!

Any idea how an X5 can beat the M5 and M6?????

Two things...massive power and Hans Stuck! A CSL did tie it, though!

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

And I have asked myself the same question repeatedly and don't have a good answer. Perhaps they just mean 911 in general be it 4, 4S, convertible, S, etc.?

To those of you that don't think the M3 can beat the 8:05 (or 7:59) time stop saying "I don't think it can." with no evidence. WHY don't you think it can. Perhaps because you love P-cars, or you don't like BMWs, that aint a reason. I think it can because BMW is known for good balanced and great handling cars, because the new M3 has a fantastic powerful V8 that revs through the roof and most importanly because the power to weight ratio is substantially better than the S!

Swamp, I don't believe you have scientific evidence that the M3 will beat those times and I surely don't have evidence that it won't. All specualation. I hope it does but I am not going to get my hopes up too quickly. I confess, I love M cars, but also love P cars, A cars, MB cars, American cars, and those other world Italian cars...Heck, I like all sports cars, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses and cater to different buyers. One is not necessarily better than the other just different and for different purposes. IMO the difference that will probably push the new Carrera S ahead of the M3 at the Ring will be primarily due to its superior brakes. Braking performance can be very underated at the Ring.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ward

guess which maker is #2 in profit margin

hello pot, this is the kettle

Ugh, can you read? Click the link "ref" in my post. BMW is not 2nd, they are 4th, below Toyota AND Nissan with less than half the margins of Porsche. I'm happy P. can make that wonderful profit and I am glad BMW can make a much more modest profit. So with BMW you not only get superior performance per dollar but you also get more of your money spent on the car itself.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

Swamp, I don't believe you have scientific evidence that the M3 will beat those times and I surely don't have evidence that it won't. All specualation. I hope it does but I am not going to get my hopes up too quickly. I confess, I love M cars, but also love P cars, A cars, MB cars, American cars, and those other world Italian cars...Heck, I like all sports cars, each has it's own strengths and weaknesses and cater to different buyers. One is not necessarily better than the other just different and for different purposes. IMO the difference that will probably push the new Carrera S ahead of the M3 at the Ring will be primarily due to its superior brakes. Braking performance can be very underated at the Ring.

Exactly right, I don't have any scientific evidence of any kind. I never claimed I did. What we do have is simply hearsay coming straight from the mouth of a BMW engineer. I just get tired of the attitude often shown that is "no way it can't beat the S, period" with ZERO evidence, reasoning, thought, argument, etc. Not a very strong way to debate.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Exactly right, I don't have any scientific evidence of any kind. I never claimed I did. What we do have is simply hearsay coming straight from the mouth of a BMW engineer. I just get tired of the attitude often shown that is "no way it can't beat the S, period" with ZERO evidence, reasoning, thought, argument, etc. Not a very strong way to debate.

I agree. Swamp, It's quite late, don't you have to go to work in the morning?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by devo

m

Relax and read my post again.

I am not unrelaxed, thanks. I do think one of us is reading the others posts and one isn't...I read your post carefully the first time, read it again just now and feel my reply in the four points I made are completely valid and still open. I am having a hard time engaging with you in any real/fun/light debate. You keep avoiding my replies. Either you want to support your statements or you don't either way is fine I guess. Last but not least I don't think your ownership experiences are directly relevant to the new M3 vs. the current Carrera S ring times...Cheers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ruff

I agree. Swamp, It's quite late, don't you have to go to work in the morning?

I'm working in Australia for about 10 days! Hence my very oddball posting times lately.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I'm working in Australia for about 10 days! Hence my very oddball posting times lately.

I am Jealous, enjoy your trip.

[swamp2]

Here: in the great Motortrend review M boss Richter tells us it beats the M5 on the ring and by doing the math we get 8:09. However, he also alludes to being able to do the lap himself, carrying on a conversation in 8:10. I think he is walking the corporate/marketing line carefully and politically here; he doesn't want to say it will embarass the M5 but also that is has a great time. If he can do an 8:10 while chatting I'd say the 8:05 mark of the S is again well withing the realms of possibility.

[devo]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I am not unrelaxed, thanks. I do think one of us is reading the others posts and one isn't...I read your post carefully the first time, read it again just now and feel my reply in the four points I made are completely valid and still open. I am having a hard time engaging with you in any real/fun/light debate. You keep avoiding my replies. Either you want to support your statements or you don't either way is fine I guess. Last but not least I don't think your ownership experiences are directly relevant to the new M3 vs. the current Carrera S ring times...Cheers.

Okay....I'll bite. Your response to my initial post was a little abrasive and dismissive to many of my points. Each of us has an opinion, but you seem to take offense to mine.

If you want to take the position that there will always be a better car around the corner, so be it. I am of the same belief. I was mearly pointing out that Porsche's HP bump is immediate (as in MY2008) and that the 998 will be out by 2010, which will likely be fall 2009; that's not far away. So, in my opinion, Porsche has BMW's threat answered in rather short fashion.

Do I think that a 997 911S is worth $20k+ more than a E92 M3...no, but it IS subjective to the buyer and you DO get what you pay for. And, you tout the M's brakes. Sorry, but BMW typically falls short in the braking department when compared to Porsche. You can't tell me that the M's brakes are even in the same league as Porsche's big Reds.

As far as the Ring times. Again, sorry if this offends you but I don't believe for a minute that the M is going to run a sub 8 min. lap. As the laps continue the brakes will fade and the lap times will grow. Do you ever hear of a mag/rag tester or anyone else, for that matter, complain about Porsche's brakes. If they do, it's because they are complaining about the ridiculous cost of the fantastic ceramic brakes.

Our great Walter R. ran the ring in a 7:59 with a 997S with the Euro only 20mm/LSD setup. The S in basic form is more of a race car than the M is intended to be, so I really don't think that the M will match or beat that. (Unless, some fluke rag tester fabricates an realistic time.) If a 355 HP 911S runs that fast what do you think that the 998S will do? And, in the interim, 375+ HP will do just nicely. For me, it's more of the realization that BMW is a little too late to the party; but that's okay. Still a great car, but it's not going to be a major threat.

Lastly, if you polled everyone and had them vote for their favorite car. The choices would be limited to the M3 and the 997S with price nor resale NOT being a consideration whatsoever, I am confident that the 911 would win hands down. Of course, everyone would have to vote with an unbiased opinion. That says a lot if it comes from a BMW forum.

I love the M3. It looks great, will be very fast/fun and it will have what I am looking for. I have had the fortunate opportunity to own three different 997/911's. I sold my 997 Turbo, for a modest profit, (after three months and 3k miles of blissful ownership) because I didn't want to deal with a massive depreciation for limited mileage use and tie up $130k of my cash. Absolutely great car and I would own one again but not right now. Right now, I feel very lucky that I will likely own the M3, an S5 (for winter use) and a Ducati 1098. More toys for nearly the same bread.

They are all great cars.

Cheers back...brother.

[2002 Tii]

History and sales have proved time and time again that Porsche's problem is not having a car with an engine placed in the wrong end.
The 928 was unanimously considered one of the greatest GT cars ever, even Benz people were saying if we had produced this car, it would have been one of our best selling products!
Which car do you think killed 928? It was the other car from Stuttgart with the engine in the wrong place. Same thing is happening with Cayman, the car is absoloutely awsome ( I owned an S), but the sales numbers have been poor while those of 911 have gone up!
BTW, someone posted something about Porsche having the highest profit margins on cars, not true. That honor is held by Ferrari and by a huge gap.

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by lucid

It is irrelevant how the 911 came about. The point is that it came about and has been iconic for a long time for whatever reason (the reason is not worth pondering).

However, that doesn't mean that it will continue to be iconic. I agree that kids can be playing with R8s in a few years, but I doubt that will happen because R8 will beat the 911 on the ring. If it happens, it will have to do with something else.

Panamera does seem huge on pics indeed, like a crossover.

The R8 finished the ring in 8:04, 0.01 sec faster than the Carrera S (Sport Auto 7/2007)

[devo]

Originally Posted by E36325is

The R8 finished the ring in 8:04, 0.01 sec faster than the Carrera S (Sport Auto 7/2007)

Ture. But, with all due respect to the R8, 1 second advantage for $25-30K more than the C2S, no thanks.

[E36325is]

Originally Posted by devo

Ture. But, with all due respect to the R8, 1 second advantage for $25-30K more than the C2S, no thanks.

Exactly and the C2S is RWD only...

[ilron]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

Two things...massive power and Hans Stuck! A CSL did tie it, though!

Power and Hans Stuck definitely helps, but the X5 also boast double wishbone suspension while the M3 still use the MacPherson strut design.
Fortunately it looks like the BMW M engineers have spent a good deal of time figuring out how to improve this design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_wishbone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPherson_strut
http://www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/....8i-SE/222801/

[sdiver68]

Originally Posted by 2002 Tii

Which car do you think killed 928?

I had 2 928's including a 1 of 50 '89 GT which was their "track" version and loved them, but they were too heavy to be real sports cars even with the big V8, more like GT cars.