E60 M5 VS E92 M3

[visor]

Eh?

I say, let Darwinism take its course...

[JK42]

These people often kill other, innocent people who drive on the roads too, so I strongly disagree.

Best regards,

Jussi

[visor]

Hmm, I see your point.

But a 19 year old "invulnerable" youth is most likely not going to heed our advice, much less the advice of his father. So, in the end it is up to his father to edumacate our friend here and it is also up to him whether he purchases a 400+hp car for his son or not.

I know you mean well, but let's talk more about something else... like the E92 M3!

[JK42]

Agreed. I'm gonna take this X3 3.0sd to the track now since the photographer is finally done, so "I'll be back". I'll try to pry something else about the M3 later today when I return the X3 to another BMW location than I picked it up from, they have a great salesguy who talks to Münich often.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Jussi im glad that you wrote what you wrote. In the US bmw regualary make HPDEs paid for by bmw or by customers which teach performance driving. I spectate them regularly as i live 5 miles from the track. The majority of the people that are unfortunately old men and not the young teens seen on the news dead.

[JK42]

Yeah, sadly wisdom usually only seems to come with age. Too bad. I would think in the US it could even shield BMW from some liability if they made such driving classes mandatory for performance vehicle buyers.... Or I guess then again not, because then when somebody would still crash, they would come crying with their lawyers that "BMW's course was faulty, we want $100 million"... It's tought for manufacturers. All I am worried about it that government steps in at some point and makes stupid legistlations, like in Australia they are trying to legistlate cars to go just 120km/h so there would be no speeding!! Talk about supreme idiocy - well, these are the same people who banned guns 100% in a country where 31 of the 32 most deadly poison snakes (or some insane number like that) and other dangerous wild animals live in 95% of the country. I really hope government doesn't step in on high performance vehicles/high performance driver training because of high profile accidents. That's why people should just take the class - just take it, it's almost free compared to the car, and you'll enjoy the car much more after the class.

Best regards,

Jussi

[imsambeen]

who cares about 0-100. 1 vs 100 is a great show. J/K

How many times do you go over 100 mph anyways. i perfer quick acceleration and handling over top speeds.

[JK42]

I go over 100 mph on a daily basis on my trip to and from work... Didn't quite get what you meant by "1 vs 100 is a great show"?

Quick accelleration is a definite plus. That's why I'm waiting for the 4.5s 0-62mph accelleration of the new M3. And when we're discussing BMW's, we don't even have to talk about handling. Perfect handling is a given.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Originally Posted by imsambeen

who cares about 0-100. 1 vs 100 is a great show. J/K

How many times do you go over 100 mph anyways. i perfer quick acceleration and handling over top speeds.

I used to think the same way, that "top speed is nothing" and that turning is the best. Granted turning is the best, but speed is addictive and I don't think I could handle only 100mph.

[enigma]

I have taken the approach of challenging the young hot shots to come out to an autocross and show me what they have. I have even offered to pay their entry if they can beat my time.

The ones that are not a lost cause get a wake up when someone in a mini smokes their times

Back on topic. I am not at all worried about the power to weight of the new M3. What does worry me is the handling of the car. The E46 was an amazing dissapointment in this regard. They dumbed it down to the point that you had to drive it sideways to get it to rotate.

I am also curious about the SMG IV rummors. It seems like a short timeframe from the SMG III to introduce a new system. Call me skeptical here.

[replicat]

Back on topic. I am not at all worried about the power to weight of the new M3. What does worry me is the handling of the car. The E46 was an amazing dissapointment in this regard. They dumbed it down to the point that you had to drive it sideways to get it to rotate.

Wow your e46 must have been faulty? But anywho, the new m3's driving dynamics will be incredible, yadda, yadda...read the thread around here. It will be amazing.

[visor]

You know what would have even better handling than the new M3?

The M1 or M2, if BMW ever makes them.

Can you imagine if there is over 300hp available in a 1 series chassis?
I'm sure Jussi would sell his beloved 130i for it!

[enigma]

Originally Posted by replicat

Wow your e46 must have been faulty? But anywho, the new m3's driving dynamics will be incredible, yadda, yadda...read the thread around here. It will be amazing.

I read the threads around here. I also remember the threads before the E46 shipped.

I have had the chance to drive a number of diffrent E46 M3s at track/autocross events. They simply don't handle well by sports car standards. i.e. compared to a miata, s2000, or even E36 M3. BMW dialed in a ton of understeer to keep people from losing control of the cars. The problem was they did this by removing all the front end grip.

[JK42]

Visor: My 130i M Sport self-tuning isn't done yet with the ECU. Now I have 287hp, of which 270hp goes to the rear wheels (all roto-dynoed), but next spring I plan to have installed a second set of tailpipes all the way from the engine with sport cats. That should easily bring it to over 300 hp. I know one Italian guy who has done the same mods and has over 300hp and can do 0-62mph in 5.1 seconds. (By default, 130i does it in 5.7s, not the advertised 6.1s)

Best regards,

Jussi

[visor]

Originally Posted by JK42

Visor: My 130i M Sport self-tuning isn't done yet with the ECU. Now I have 287hp, of which 270hp goes to the rear wheels (all roto-dynoed), but next spring I plan to have installed a second set of tailpipes all the way from the engine with sport cats. That should easily bring it to over 300 hp. I know one Italian guy who has done the same mods and has over 300hp and can do 0-62mph in 5.1 seconds. (By default, 130i does it in 5.7s, not the advertised 6.1s)

Best regards,

Jussi

Wow, awesome!

300hp! How much does a 130i weigh? 3200lbs?
Only thing is, how well do you feel it puts that much hp to the ground without a limited slip diff?

And have you heard anything about the M1 or M2 from your sources?

[JK42]

Hi,

It's exactly a little under 3150lbs with all options, including 70kg (mm 150lbs) driver, 90% fuel tank filling and 40lbs of luggage. It puts the power to the ground as well as you can expect from a BMW without LSD, that is, excellent in dry conditions (as long as you install wider rubber than what BMW sells by default for the 1-series - the widest rear tyres they want to sell you are only 225/40. You want 255/35 like on the Z4 3.0si) - that's why they advertise Z4 3.0si as doing 5.7s 0-100km/h and 130i doing it 6.1s, because the Z4 3.0si has decent and wider rubber on the rear wheels by default, and 130i doesn't. But I still did 5.73 seconds 0-100 with the 225/40 rear tyres with the 130i. They weight the same (Z4 & 130i) and have the same exact engine and tune (N52B30, 195kW/265hp, 315Nm by default.), so the 5.7s for Z4 3.0si Coupé/Roadster and 6.1s for 130i is really just marketing BS to justify the 10.000e-20.000 euros more that you have to pay up for the Z4 over here. Ironic thing is, the 130i is the better one to drive, since it doesn't have the horrendous electric power steering that the Z4 non-M-models do, also it's center of weight is as low as with the Z4 M Coupé when you have the M sport suspension, and it's chassis rigidity is only second to the Z4 M Coupé (Z4 M Coupé has the most rigid chassis of all current BMW models at 32.000Nm, 130i was something like 28.000Nm) and you have the beautiful, wonderful traditional BMW rack & pinion hydraulic steering on the 130i. Z4 M-models don't have the eletric power steering since apparently M GmbH liked the shitty electronic steering as little as I did, or anybody who knows anything about BMWs does - it was the first thing they removed when making the Z4 M and replaced it with the traditional hydraulic rack and piniong steering. Basic non-M-Z4 is the only BMW model where the electric steering has ever been used. And it'll probably stay that way after what a disaster it was. The local reseller here has had over 20 people sell off their Z4 3.0si's (Coupé and Roadster) just this summer after driving less than 2000-5000 miles because they all thought the steering was terrible, and they changed into E90 330i models or in two cases, Z4 M-models (and in three cases, they dumped BMW and changed into some other brand unfortunately, so the electric steering on the Z4 spoils BMWs reputation somewhat as well.)

Nothing on the NEW M1 nor M2... the old M1 was way cool back in 1978 - and still is. It started it all... But I'd venture a guess that there might one day be an M2 based on the upcoming cabrio/coupé that will be built off the E87 (1-series) chassis and is under testing now. That model will at least fill in the empty model spot for a small rag-top Cabrio now that the new E93 will have a Coupé/Cabrio hardtop. And I guess we need a smaller Coupé too since the E92 is getting pretty big and heavy. It's now bigger than the E34 5-series was, already. And the 335i E92 weighs over 3500lbs, Christ!

Best regards,

Jussi

[JK42]

Originally Posted by enigma

I read the threads around here. I also remember the threads before the E46 shipped.

I have had the chance to drive a number of diffrent E46 M3s at track/autocross events. They simply don't handle well by sports car standards. i.e. compared to a miata, s2000, or even E36 M3. BMW dialed in a ton of understeer to keep people from losing control of the cars. The problem was they did this by removing all the front end grip.

Uhh. Actually, the E46 M3 handles better on the track, than, for example, Ferrari F355. Been there, drove them both. A lot. And hell of a lot better than the E36 M3 did. Maybe you're just used to the terrible "handling" of ricers like S2000 and MX-5 (which, by the way, are not sports cars - by any standards, well, they do have LSD but that's about it. (And the "Miata" (what a stupid name) does nothing with it's LSD given the lawnmower engine it has.) - that's what I call bad handling, and the feeling you get with E46 M3 is what's generally called enjoyable driving.

Best regards,

Jussi

[enigma]

Originally Posted by JK42

Uhh. Actually, the E46 M3 handles better on the track, than, for example, Ferrari F355. Been there, drove them both. A lot. And hell of a lot better than the E36 M3 did. Maybe you're just used to the terrible "handling" of ricers like S2000 and MX-5 (which, by the way, are not sports cars -

You must have a diffrent definition of hadling than I do. My Elise handles well, its not like I am a stranger to the concept.

The S2000 and Z06s I have driven don't have the BMW understeer. At least the miata is ballanced if underpowered.

Perhaps you are one of these people that think "easy to drive" is the same thing as "good handling". My definition of good handling is a car that will do whatever you tell it. The E46 only gave you two options, understeer or power on oversteer.

BTW: I still have both my E46 M3 and Lotus Elise.

[JK42]

Handling of the E46 M3, or Z4 M Coupé based on it (only different chassis and gearbox, all other parts same as -06 M3 Competition Sport Package) - easy, comfortable and controllable - if you want it so. If you want fast track times, you need to grab the M3 by the balls. It needs to be thrown around into slides, it needs to be worked. That's when it will reward you. Meaning fast track times, being able to recover control from any power slides easily and in general, by acting like BMW's should act. All different car makers have different ideas regarding handling, and most people have their preferences. The Dodge Viper (for example) is on the other end of the spectrum. Definitely fun to drive too, but very extreme. I'd be sweating on one of those after 10 or 20 laps at full speed, but having fun with any M BMW after the same number of rounds. This is were facts end, and opinions start.

While talking about the difference between opinions and facts on this issue, let's just remember the track record for the Nordschleife - M3 GTR in 7 minutes 1 second - based on E46 M3 handling, but certainly tuned for sportier approach. I'd call that pretty f* good handling considering it is the most challenging track on earth. Track times are ultimately what proves on a non-opinion based factual level what is good handling and what is not, as the goal of "good handling" is to be able to take a track, any track, as well as possible, or any situation in traffic that might present itself, which tracks and track-times are great indicators of. There have been 2 or 3 times more powerful cars on the Nordschleife as the M3 GTR, but they still could barely make it in about 8 minutes, or maybe a little under. That's why tracks ultimately reveal good handling. And that's why manufacturers who build cars with bad handling are afraid to publish comparable track figures. Third parties need to go out and get them. Anybody and any company can make just about any car go fast in a straight line, but only very few seem to be able to make them go fast in very demanding track conditions, which are directly indicative of good handling that is not opinion-based as some of the people here would like people to think.

Best regards,

Jussi

[replicat]

Great long posts by Jussi, but i think that you are definitely being biased here. Im on smoltz's side. Japanese econo-cars, serve the people who drive them, very well. There is no doubt that you know your cars well and that you have driven alot of great cars, but you are not stating facts anymore. The Miata and S2000, though underpowered, handle excellently for the price. And with a couple hundred dollars in suspension upgrades, you can have yourself a nice little car that will outhandle hundreds of track-goers.

Granted, these cars aren't your european track monsters, right out of the box. But then again, they cast 2-3 times less.

All done. Much Love.

-Pete.

[Mgrady]

replicat, i never disrespected JK you probably read the posts after the ADMIN deleted them. i was talking to smoltz, and i never received your pm. PS don't msg me starting some online drama lol that shit is way too old and pointless.

[JK42]

Replicat,

You're entitled to your opinion, I am to my own. Nordschleife track times speak for themselves. And we were talking about the supposedly "poor" handling of the E46 M3 in this thread, if you didn't notice.

Best regards,

Jussi