Camaro zl1

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Freiheit

Probably. Thats about the only thing I'd consider for myself. Yet even though my E92 is 8 years old, I can't really imagine getting rid of it, unless its for an even better E92.

The new Comp is pretty badass, but the regular M2 is no slouch at all. Plus they both sound better than the F8x. And there's nothing else from any manufacturer that I find as interesting. The ZL1 is fast as all hell, and I'm sure it handles, but the view from the cockpit is like looking out of a mail slot. I sat in one at a release demo and I got right back out of it, not even bothering to take it for a ride. And the interior seems to have been made out of livestock. Its not as overstuffed as the Mustang - nothing is - but there's barely enough room in the car for me with the seats, console and dash.

How is it that all these different manufacturers make cars that are huge but have no room? My E92 has a huge interior compared to the ZL1, the seats don't look like they were part of a sectional sofa, and the trunk is big enough to fit a Smart ForTwo if you needed a backup vehicle. All LS motors sound the same too, whereas you can get a wide variety of sounds out of the S65 depending on the pipes and the muffler.

The M2C will be noting like an E92M. Motor and steering are vastly different.

And, enough with the sound comments. Go drive an M3/4ZCP in sport plus mode and you will not have a problem with the sound. Oh, and you'll be blown away by how good they are.

Not knocking the E92M.....considering adding a DCT coupe to the stable.

[Freiheit]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

The M2C will be noting like an E92M. Motor and steering are vastly different.

Whoa, really?

Originally Posted by EricSMG

And, enough with the sound comments. Go drive an M3/4ZCP in sport plus mode and you will not have a problem with the sound. Oh, and you'll be blown away by how good they are.

I've driven them. I wanted one the first time I saw it. They're beautiful cars inside and out. I have considerable seat time in a maxed-out Dinan M4. It was incredibly fast - it broke the rear wheels loose at 60 like I was launching on a grease patch - and it sounded like ass. I wanted to buy the car yet I couldn't get past that farty, hollow sound. Its not quite Civic+grapefruit shooter bad - you can tell its a performance car - but its just so flat and characterless I can't get past it.

The performance got me in the mood to get back into a BMW though, so I bought an E92 M3. No complaints with the sound there. And oh- I was blown away by how good it was too.

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Not knocking the E92M.....considering adding a DCT coupe to the stable.

No kidding? Maybe go drive one. You'll be blown away by how good they are.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Freiheit

Whoa, really?






I've driven them. I wanted one the first time I saw it. They're beautiful cars inside and out. I have considerable seat time in a maxed-out Dinan M4. It was incredibly fast - it broke the rear wheels loose at 60 like I was launching on a grease patch - and it sounded like ass. I wanted to buy the car yet I couldn't get past that farty, hollow sound. Its not quite Civic+grapefruit shooter bad - you can tell its a performance car - but its just so flat and characterless I can't get past it.

The performance got me in the mood to get back into a BMW though, so I bought an E92 M3. No complaints with the sound there. And oh- I was blown away by how good it was too.



No kidding? Maybe go drive one. You'll be blown away by how good they are.

Relax.

I owned an E90M 6MT so I've driven one. It frustrated the hell out of me because the super long manual trans ratios made it a dog on the street at anything under 6k rpm. I am considering a DCT version because the gear ratios are much shorter/closer-spaced and thus suit the S65 better.

Finally, have you driven an actual M3/4 ZCP? They sound pretty good inside the car. Not S65 good, sure... but nothing sounds that good. Even the LS motors, as you say, don't really sound that good. You drove a modified car... and yes, they sound like ass. Further, a stock ZCP car hooks extremely well and will never break the tires loose like you describe.... which would actually detract from the driving experience. Everyone thinks "it's a turbo so must modify for maximum power" when in reality the stock car has MORE than enough oomph but yet is fully, 100%... usable. Which is the entire point of an M3 - boosting the hell out of it so it's uncontrollable is counter productive.

Go drive a stock ZCP car and then report back. I doubt you'll say it sounds like ass. More likely you'll say "yeah, it's nothing like an S65 but it's good enough to not be an issue."

[Freiheit]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Relax.

I owned an E90M 6MT so I've driven one. It frustrated the hell out of me because the super long manual trans ratios made it a dog on the street at anything under 6k rpm. I am considering a DCT version because the gear ratios are much shorter/closer-spaced and thus suit the S65 better.

I’ve wondered about that for a long time. It seems to me like the 6MT was almost supposed to go on a version of the car that would have had more low end. Perhaps BMW was planning a turbo S65 for the final year, or perhaps they left the door open for the big players in the aftermarket to offer their own boost packages.

Gear ratios are one of the reasons I chose DCT, the other being an accommodation I made to an injury at the time and the reality that clutch work might not be in my long term future. I don’t find DCT to be possessed like some people say, but then again I had an SMG M3 when that came out and I got along fine with it, so maybe I’m just crazy. About the only drawback I find to DCT is the lack of an overdrive. Most modern transmissions have two OD cogs, and I could swear I saw one with three, but I dunno. Whatever- it would be nice to relax on the highway and not spin the motor to 3100rpm.

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Finally, have you driven an actual M3/4 ZCP? They sound pretty good inside the car. Not S65 good, sure... but nothing sounds that good. Even the LS motors, as you say, don't really sound that good. You drove a modified car... and yes, they sound like ass. Further, a stock ZCP car hooks extremely well and will never break the tires loose like you describe.... which would actually detract from the driving experience. Everyone thinks "it's a turbo so must modify for maximum power" when in reality the stock car has MORE than enough oomph but yet is fully, 100%... usable. Which is the entire point of an M3 - boosting the hell out of it so it's uncontrollable is counter productive.

Go drive a stock ZCP car and then report back. I doubt you'll say it sounds like ass. More likely you'll say "yeah, it's nothing like an S65 but it's good enough to not be an issue."

I haven’t driven the Comp version of the M4, and you make a good point there. I will jump in one at my next trip to the dealer.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by Freiheit

I’ve wondered about that for a long time. It seems to me like the 6MT was almost supposed to go on a version of the car that would have had more low end. Perhaps BMW was planning a turbo S65 for the final year, or perhaps they left the door open for the big players in the aftermarket to offer their own boost packages.

Gear ratios are one of the reasons I chose DCT, the other being an accommodation I made to an injury at the time and the reality that clutch work might not be in my long term future. I don’t find DCT to be possessed like some people say, but then again I had an SMG M3 when that came out and I got along fine with it, so maybe I’m just crazy. About the only drawback I find to DCT is the lack of an overdrive. Most modern transmissions have two OD cogs, and I could swear I saw one with three, but I dunno. Whatever- it would be nice to relax on the highway and not spin the motor to 3100rpm.

I totally agree that the 6MT ratios are suited for a much stronger midrange. The E92M 6MT has virtually identical redline road speeds per gear as the F80 6MT... very tall. The F80 is geared perfectly as its wide sea of torque suits long/wide trans ratios. The S65 does not.

I test drove 3 DCT E92Ms yesterday and there is a notable difference in around-town oomph. 2nd, 3rd and 4th (especially 3rd and 4th) are considerably shorter in the DCT car and make these gears feel much more peppy in the 4-6k rpm range (where you spend 99% of your time in the real world). Further, the gears are so close that the rpm drop during a shift is about half that in the 6MT car... so there's very little torque loss moving from one gear to the next... the power feels consistent as you move through the cogs.

Now, does the DCT make the S65 feel like an S55? Not by a long shot but that's not the goal. Rather, the DCT makes the S65 more usable/fun in the real world... and when you want to wind it out, makes the upper rpms more easily accessible with it's much slower redline road speeds per gear (3rd/4th are dramatically slower). You can redline 3rd gear in the DCT car regularly without feeling like you're going to kill someone.... not the case in the 6MT.

Finally, about overdrive - while it is true that 7th is 1:1 in the DCT, its diff ratio is WAY taller than the 6MT's (3:15 vs 3:85, respectively)... without doing the math I would bet that the true top gear (6th in manual, 7th in DCT) final drive ratios are virtually identical, meaning that both setups should run at the same rpm/speed on the highway.

Side note: that 8.4k rpm induction wail of the S65 is addicting

[Freiheit]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Finally, about overdrive - while it is true that 7th is 1:1 in the DCT, its diff ratio is WAY taller than the 6MT's (3:15 vs 3:85, respectively)... without doing the math I would bet that the true top gear (6th in manual, 7th in DCT) final drive ratios are virtually identical, meaning that both setups should run at the same rpm/speed on the highway.

This makes sense. Yet if you look at it from a track POV, the gearbox is supposed to be devoted to keeping the motor in its usable powerband, and the rear gear is what adapts it to the track of the day. Obviously we're not all driving on a particular track when we take our cars out - unless you want to look at a daily commute or weekend fun drive as some kind of metaphor (and what M driver doesn't, really) - but to me that means the rear gear should be taken out of the equation and you should start looking at the cogs in the box as either a multiplier or a reduction gear. At 1:1, output is perfectly sync'd to input. Anything less than that "1" means the motor can lope along, comparatively.

So my question stands: why didn't they give us a nice lopey gear for cruising?

I get the whole part about driving being active and participatory instead of the cruise control and cupholder mentality, but I wouldn't mind enjoying the machine with a thumb on the wheel and a sub-2K engine note while I listen to the $1900 stereo option I made sure to get. Instead, after driving the whole route at 9/10 I'm so amped up by the time I get to my destination due to the rpm and the music coming out of that engine that I don't want to do anything but drive some more. But I guess that was the point, wasn't it?

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Side note: that 8.4k rpm induction wail of the S65 is addicting

There's nothing else like it on this planet. The E46 on a Euro exhaust is a fair second though.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Freiheit

There's nothing else like it on this planet. The E46 on a Euro exhaust is a fair second though.

Nothing beats the sound of a straight piped CSL.

[Freiheit]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Nothing beats the sound of a straight piped CSL.

Sounds F1, pretty neat. I don’t think I’d be able to handle that sound for everyday driving but it would be great on Saturday night.

A couple of the guys on Bimmerforums experimented pretty heavily with various exhaust combinations back in those days. One guy, Ced, nailed it with Euro headers, Larini cats, and a Dinan muffler. Pick a good intake to go with it and it’s enough to bewitch anyone. He posted some driving vids that were shot at night and were almost hypnotic. My cars sounded pretty close to his. I wish I still had them.

Back to the ZL1... a friend of mine who owns a 5th gen Camaro SS just told me he drove a buddy’s ZL1. He said it was a screamer, handled incredibly well, and aside from the low roof it was comfortable. He felt for $65k it was the car to get, more so than the Vette.

I am considering giving the Camaro a chance again, but then I think for that kind of cash I could replace my E46 and E36 M3s with nice (relatively) low mile examples and have enough money left to add another two car garage to my house. Plus I would have a bigger greenhouse area and not have to worry about hitting my skull on the roof.