Official Harrop TVS1740 Supercharger Thread

[Mvy]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

I just saw you have a canned tune. Not the best idea

The kit comes with a tune designed for your specific exhaust set up and the supercharger. It was designed by BPM and Harrop. Im not sure you can modify that tune without voiding the warranty on this item.

Ive sent the dyno result to Dynojet to ask them to advise if they think the results are indicative of detonation or knock. Ill let everyone know what they say.

Im taking the car in tomorrow for a boost check and will ask about doing some logging.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Mvy

The kit comes with a tune designed for your specific exhaust set up and the supercharger. It was designed by BPM and Harrop. Im not sure you can modify that tune without voiding the warranty on this item.

Ive sent the dyno result to Dynojet to ask them to advise if they think the results are indicative of detonation or knock. Ill let everyone know what they say.

Im taking the car in tomorrow for a boost check and will ask about doing some logging.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

[M.Hagen]

Originally Posted by Mvy

The kit comes with a tune designed for your specific exhaust set up and the supercharger. It was designed by BPM and Harrop. Im not sure you can modify that tune without voiding the warranty on this item.

Ive sent the dyno result to Dynojet to ask them to advise if they think the results are indicative of detonation or knock. Ill let everyone know what they say.

Im taking the car in tomorrow for a boost check and will ask about doing some logging.

Mvy - I agree with some of the others here, that your chart is a little off from the other Harrop DynoJet graphs I've seen. I always recommend logging, especially if adding forced induction. I also recently installed the Harrop kit with Mike's tune as well. I am trying to find a good data logger before I go back to the dyno (I did a baseline dyno session the day before installing), so please post back if you get any recomendations on logging tools.

FWIW, usually the choppiness on the top-end of a dynojet chart indicates abnormally low ignition timing. Whether this is from timing being pulled from the DME due to combustion issues, or other reasons, that is what logging will hopefully inform.

[///Mobbin]

Curious if there is room for a price adjustment of this kit based on the strong US Dollar right now? Doesn't hurt to ask right?

1 USD =~ 1.31 AUD

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Mvy

The kit comes with a tune designed for your specific exhaust set up and the supercharger. It was designed by BPM and Harrop. Im not sure you can modify that tune without voiding the warranty on this item.

Ive sent the dyno result to Dynojet to ask them to advise if they think the results are indicative of detonation or knock. Ill let everyone know what they say.

Im taking the car in tomorrow for a boost check and will ask about doing some logging.

Lets just clear the air a bit here. Which exhaust brand you have, has minimal impact on the car. Cattless vs catted will.

Canned tunes are notorious for what your experiencing. That would be fine on one car, and dangerous on another.

You can modify anything you want, because the "warranty" is for hardware only. I dont believe you would ever have a problem with hardware, and if bpm or harrop try to decline a warranty claim based off of tune, as long as the hardware was not changed, then that speaks about their rep. Which I dont believe is bad.

Dynojet will likely not answer your email, and if they do, they will tell you what we all have said, you need to seek pro help from a tuner.

WHat you could do if you dont want to get a logging device or seek help from a different tuner, is increase the octane and then re-dyno. if your graph is smooth, its knocking from too much timing/boost for the octane

[Mvy]

Ran logs today from idle to redline, tracking everything for 20 mins. Though we don't have the ability to check knock by cylinder with the set up we had, we were able to check timings and everything looked conservative. We have sent the log to an expert to review but he cant get to it until next week.

Checked boost as well. Was in the range of 0-7lbs depending on rpm, averaging 5 over 4k rpm.

I also got a hold of the dyno files and Dynojet has been great at responding and are looking at the files now. Before we got them the files, Dynojet said:

"Smoothing is set to 3 in the screen shot you sent, so there is more smoothing that can be added to show a cleaner line. Without OBDII data, it would only be a guess to know if the jaggedness was due to A/F ratio, advance curve, knock retarder, or other factors with the car. It could be a tire out of round, u-joints in the driveline or many other things as well.

Also, tell your dyno operator that here in the US, he should be using the SAE correction factor. The STD correction factor he is using is very old and was replaced almost 20 years ago with the SAE, which is the current correct factor."

So attached is the same file with smoothing 5 and SAE correction factor. It looks a hell of a lot better jerkyness wise. Untitled.pdf

I appreciate everyones help and concern. I certainly want to keep my car alive for the long haul. So far nothing stands out as wrong or dangerous about the tune or the install. More to come as I have a few others look at the data. Will try to log again when I have the chance to get back to the shop in a few weeks.

[Mvy]

Heres all four runs corrected by Dynojet. Nothing they could see jumped out at them, but without Obd info its not a complete view.

4 Runs.pdf

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

Lets just clear the air a bit here. Which exhaust brand you have, has minimal impact on the car. Cattless vs catted will.

Canned tunes are notorious for what your experiencing. That would be fine on one car, and dangerous on another.

You can modify anything you want, because the "warranty" is for hardware only. I dont believe you would ever have a problem with hardware, and if bpm or harrop try to decline a warranty claim based off of tune, as long as the hardware was not changed, then that speaks about their rep. Which I dont believe is bad.

Dynojet will likely not answer your email, and if they do, they will tell you what we all have said, you need to seek pro help from a tuner.

WHat you could do if you dont want to get a logging device or seek help from a different tuner, is increase the octane and then re-dyno. if your graph is smooth, its knocking from too much timing/boost for the octane

How do you log?


Also has anyone done any straight line racing with this kit?
I've seen one 1/4 mile slip and that's it.
What can kind of traps can I expect in the 1/4, 1/2 mile roll racing, standing km?

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Mvy

Heres all four runs corrected by Dynojet. Nothing they could see jumped out at them, but without Obd info its not a complete view.

Attachment 1519783

Still not clean. on the single dyno, knock is starting at 110mph, and the 4 run overlay, that red file, the first, seems to be way too much and then the ecu has learned to dial it back, but all are still knocking at 7k and above.

just post the logs here. you should be around 26* max, as well as showing a good 12.5 afr to keep it safe and cool

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Nugget

How do you log?


Also has anyone done any straight line racing with this kit?
I've seen one 1/4 mile slip and that's it.
What can kind of traps can I expect in the 1/4, 1/2 mile roll racing, standing km?

great questions. the BMWhat app is great, you can log in real time and very user friendly once its setup.

No one has ever had these things out at events for dare i say, lack of performance. IIRC, BPM was supposedly taking theirs to a 1/2 mile, but never showed. I dont think they've even sold more than a few in the US.

I love the idea of this kit, but given the s65's sensitivity, it just doesnt pair well. I would bet a 5psi centri kit and a gear change would give the same feel and faster performance on the track, as well as keeping a fatter wallet in the end

We also now know that the harrop kit cannot have a stage 2 due to the amount of boost they are already running. M stated 7psi tapering off to 5 psi. that tells us even without logs, that they are running as much boost as they safely can, everywhere they can

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

great questions. the BMWhat app is great, you can log in real time and very user friendly once its setup.

No one has ever had these things out at events for dare i say, lack of performance. IIRC, BPM was supposedly taking theirs to a 1/2 mile, but never showed. I dont think they've even sold more than a few in the US.

I love the idea of this kit, but given the s65's sensitivity, it just doesnt pair well. I would bet a 5psi centri kit and a gear change would give the same feel and faster performance on the track, as well as keeping a fatter wallet in the end

We also now know that the harrop kit cannot have a stage 2 due to the amount of boost they are already running. M stated 7psi tapering off to 5 psi. that tells us even without logs, that they are running as much boost as they safely can, everywhere they can

BMWhat as in Carly?
I have that, what parameters would you suggest logging?

I am have ordered the Harrop kit and have signed up for a runway event next year. I guess we will find out what it does over 800m(1/2 mile) and standing KM then.

[burnrbr]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

great questions. the BMWhat app is great, you can log in real time and very user friendly once its setup.

No one has ever had these things out at events for dare i say, lack of performance. IIRC, BPM was supposedly taking theirs to a 1/2 mile, but never showed. I dont think they've even sold more than a few in the US.

I love the idea of this kit, but given the s65's sensitivity, it just doesnt pair well. I would bet a 5psi centri kit and a gear change would give the same feel and faster performance on the track, as well as keeping a fatter wallet in the end

We also now know that the harrop kit cannot have a stage 2 due to the amount of boost they are already running. M stated 7psi tapering off to 5 psi. that tells us even without logs, that they are running as much boost as they safely can, everywhere they can

What is the basis of your argument that a stage two isn't possible? Five to seven pounds of boost isn't a lot compared to the boost provided by the highest levels of centrifugal kits. Of course the centrifugal kits are only producing max boost at redline and way less than max boost when the engine is at peak VE.

Since the Harrop kit uses an electronically controlled bypass valve, they can tune it to reduce max boost during peak VE and ramp up from there to redline. A new tune for the DME, a new bypass valve calibration/tune, and a smaller pulley should be all that is needed to produce a stage two with higher HP numbers. My proposal is dependent on their ability to precisely control the bypass valve based on throttle and rpm CAN data.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by burnrbr

What is the basis of your argument that a stage two isn't possible? Five to seven pounds of boost isn't a lot compared to the boost provided by the highest levels of centrifugal kits. Of course the centrifugal kits are only producing max boost at redline and way less than max boost when the engine is at peak VE.

Since the Harrop kit uses an electronically controlled bypass valve, they can tune it to reduce max boost during peak VE and ramp up from there to redline. A new tune for the DME, a new bypass valve calibration/tune, and a smaller pulley should be all that is needed to produce a stage two with higher HP numbers. My proposal is dependent on their ability to precisely control the bypass valve based on throttle and rpm CAN data.

Its because they run an electronic bypass. kits are already setup for "stage 2" performance with just a retune by the pulley size thats its already running.
If your running 7psi midrange, you have the ability to run 7psi to redline already, by keeping the valve closed.
Given the known drawbacks of both, a roots/ts type s/c and the s65's sensitivy to heat, their is a reason why there are no 7psi-redline aka "stage 2" kits out there after over a year of being in the open market.

If your able to tune the car completely enough to close the valve when you want, you can certainly NOT tell it to close and apply the changes/paramteres accordingly

[BPMSport]

The Stage I kits run 5.5 to 6.5 PSI but it's more around 6. Stage II when released will be around the 7.5 range id say. No one is running 7PSI in the midrange with a Stage I kit. There are quite a few kits out there in the USA and many other countries as well. Not as many as the centri kits of course. I never made it to the airstrip with the M3 due to time constraints. Although surprisingly enough I'm going tomorrow, but will be taking the Stage I M5 as it's faster than the M3.

Stage II will be released at some point and will produce more power. Please don't ask me when or for further details. There will be an upgrade path for Stage I owners when that does happen. Releasing Stage II is not a priority for Harrop nor myself, but it will come.

What you are seeing on the Dyno is not knock, but you can speculate as you have been. Many statements you've made are incorrect or inaccurate with reference to this kit and its abilities.

[Pro-AM3]

If Mvy would post his log, we can end the debate right now. "nu-uh" is not a logical response to experience and logic based claims.

Answer this please: Why would you bring an old platform with no marketing need to an event when ANY harrop charged M3 has yet to make an appearance, after over a year

Why would a simple pulley swap and tune take over a year to complete, if a pulley swap is even needed, as claimed?

Lastly, if its not knocking, why else is power jerking up and down like that, exactly like knock?

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

If Mvy would post his log, we can end the debate right now. "nu-uh" is not a logical response to experience and logic based claims.

Answer this please: Why would you bring an old platform with no marketing need to an event when ANY harrop charged M3 has yet to make an appearance, after over a year

Why would a simple pulley swap and tune take over a year to complete, if a pulley swap is even needed, as claimed?

Lastly, if its not knocking, why else is power jerking up and down like that, exactly like knock?

I can't speak for other owners, they are free to run at any event they'd like. I simply do not have time to attend events. To be honest, I don't care what 1/4 time my car runs, or anything along those lines - it's fast enough for me for its purpose and use. I've had a 9PSI pulley sitting here for over a year with no intention of installing it. I drive the car once a month if I'm lucky. The focus has shifted to the F series turbo car platform.

As far as Stage II, feel free to direct your inquiries to Harrop. I'm ready to fine tune that as soon as they tell me the car is on the Dyno and ready to. You're free to draw any conclusion you'd like about the timelines of others. I'm confident they are working on other larger projects.

Without changing the pulley, there would be no additional boost and a more powerful Stage would not be possible.

If the car was knocking badly at high RPM, I'm pretty sure that my car and other Harrop equipped vehicles would not be roaring up to redline to this day. The knock control system of the S65 is very sophisticated and if you log timing advance of FI applications on these cars you will see oscillations. I'd rather the car pull back timing as it sees fit than force timing. We have tested forcing timing on top and that greatly smoothed out the top end - and while there was no knock present, different fuels and situations may have different results.

Posted from a huge line at the airstrip... forgive typos

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

I can't speak for other owners, they are free to run at any event they'd like. I simply do not have time to attend events. To be honest, I don't care what 1/4 time my car runs, or anything along those lines - it's fast enough for me for its purpose and use. I've had a 9PSI pulley sitting here for over a year with no intention of installing it. I drive the car once a month if I'm lucky. The focus has shifted to the F series turbo car platform.

As far as Stage II, feel free to direct your inquiries to Harrop. I'm ready to fine tune that as soon as they tell me the car is on the Dyno and ready to. You're free to draw any conclusion you'd like about the timelines of others. I'm confident they are working on other larger projects.

Without changing the pulley, there would be no additional boost and a more powerful Stage would not be possible.

If the car was knocking badly at high RPM, I'm pretty sure that my car and other Harrop equipped vehicles would not be roaring up to redline to this day. The knock control system of the S65 is very sophisticated and if you log timing advance of FI applications on these cars you will see oscillations. I'd rather the car pull back timing as it sees fit than force timing. We have tested forcing timing on top and that greatly smoothed out the top end - and while there was no knock present, different fuels and situations may have different results.

Posted from a huge line at the airstrip... forgive typos

I am confused, as the tuner for Harrop, you have a 9psi pulley (which is extrememly dangerous on stock internals) sitting there, and want the ok from them to tune your own ( promo) car?

you say that the current pulley wont change boost with tuning? then explain, so that i can understand, how a constant state force (7psi) is tapering off. Maybe i am missing something as the research i have done on the electronically controlled bypass, is essentially a wastegate, which is exactly how boost is either allowed to build or bled off.

Im sorry to hear that the harrop kit is locked away for the F series development. The kit had so much potential, but was so late to the game, considering the F series has been out as long and has already been waaaaaay more advanced for a longer time. It seems illogical to focus on BPU type performance on them since others already have built motors upgraded turbos and the tuning to support them.

I guess I was right, there will never be a "stage 2", i say because its impossible, others claim its just not a priority.

[BPMSport]

Originally Posted by Pro-AM3

I am confused, as the tuner for Harrop, you have a 9psi pulley (which is extrememly dangerous on stock internals) sitting there, and want the ok from them to tune your own ( promo) car?

you say that the current pulley wont change boost with tuning? then explain, so that i can understand, how a constant state force (7psi) is tapering off. Maybe i am missing something as the research i have done on the electronically controlled bypass, is essentially a wastegate, which is exactly how boost is either allowed to build or bled off.

Im sorry to hear that the harrop kit is locked away for the F series development. The kit had so much potential, but was so late to the game, considering the F series has been out as long and has already been waaaaaay more advanced for a longer time. It seems illogical to focus on BPU type performance on them since others already have built motors upgraded turbos and the tuning to support them.

I guess I was right, there will never be a "stage 2", i say because its impossible, others claim its just not a priority.

You continue to misconstrue things.

I have a 9PSI pulley here that I'm not going to put on my car. It was the initial pulley destined for the Stage II application but 9PSI was too high, so the pulley diameter was changed to lower the boost.

I was referring to their car which is the development car for the next Stage.

As I've said before, Stage I kits are not seeing 7PSI so a pulley change is required, not to mention Stage II will likely be higher than 7 anyway. There's no point in releasing a stage II kit with only 1PSI more.

[Pro-AM3]

Originally Posted by Mike Benvo

You continue to misconstrue things.

I have a 9PSI pulley here that I'm not going to put on my car. It was the initial pulley destined for the Stage II application but 9PSI was too high, so the pulley diameter was changed to lower the boost.

I was referring to their car which is the development car for the next Stage.

As I've said before, Stage I kits are not seeing 7PSI so a pulley change is required, not to mention Stage II will likely be higher than 7 anyway. There's no point in releasing a stage II kit with only 1PSI more.

ok ok, lets leave the never going to happen stage 2 alone.

I would like to know your theory, since its your tune, on what is wrong with Mvy's car to produce such a dangerous looking, knock induced appearing, power curve, if it is indeed not knock?

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Mvy

I agree on how it transforms the car! One thing I really like is how I don't need to redline the car to get it moving. Im running the car between 4-7k rpm and getting everything I need from that RPM range on the street. One thing I am adjusting to is the whine with my kn filter/custom airbox vs the stock airbox and filter in a vert. Its very loud and impossible to hide you have an SC over 2k rpm. I may try to switch back to a standard airbox to see if it quiets the noise down a bit. But thats a characteristic of PD SCs. And I am starting to think its also part of the fun.

Originally Posted by L4ces

I've learned that it is a characteristic of PD SCs. Some folks love it alot more than other folks. Please let us know how you adjust and the reactions you get. If I (as a spectator) heard a car like that (especially an M3) I'd think 'damn that's brutal".

Cheers

I really appreciate the Harrop kit as I had a PD TVS supercharger on last car (Audi S4) but am now realizing how loud the whine is. Definitely curious to hear a reduced-whine setup if anyone has taken measures. I enjoyed the subtle whine on my S4 but the M3 Harrop videos on YouTube are way beyond that.

[Mvy]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I really appreciate the Harrop kit as I had a PD TVS supercharger on last car (Audi S4) but am now realizing how loud the whine is. Definitely curious to hear a reduced-whine setup if anyone has taken measures. I enjoyed the subtle whine on my S4 but the M3 Harrop videos on YouTube are way beyond that.

I wrote to Harrop and they noted that the whine cannot be reduced by belts or pully changes. The noise comes from the SC roots themselves. I have learned it is the nature of my wife, my kids and a positive displacement supercharger to whine ;-). Im getting used to it and its a real attention getter that is for sure.

[nycplumber]

Is the whine noticeable when cruising around? Is it something that would cause fatigue on long trips?