Won ebay auction at 60K for E90 M3, BMW of Lincoln refusing to honor

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by Xcellere

That's only when the auction is live. Once it's over and a winning bidder has emerged, the seller has to acknowledge that fact and sell the item.

Where are you getting your sources from? "The way it should be" law?

Ok, where i live. Any time means ANY TIME. That's why it's in caps.

#1. either you have a contract, and forfeit the car b/c of TOS.
#2. don't have contract, and they refuse to sell.

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Ok, even if it isn't an auction based sale. Read the terms of acceptance.

WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO CANCEL ANY BIDS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON.

Game over, this isn't a contract;therefore, cannot be taken to court.

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Where are you getting your sources from? "The way it should be" law?

Ok, where i live. Any time means ANY TIME. That's why it's in caps.

#1. either you have a contract, and forfeit the car b/c of TOS.
#2. don't have contract, and they refuse to sell.

Hey jackass, IT IS A CONTRACT. LOOK AT EBAY'S WEBSITE:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/motors-bidding.html

"Remember that each bid you place enters you into a binding contract. If you win a listing, you’re obligated to complete the transaction. Read the User Agreement for details."

"While using the Sites, you will not:

-use the Sites if you are not able to form legally binding contracts, are under the age of 18, or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from our Sites."

End of story.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Where are you getting your sources from? "The way it should be" law?

Ok, where i live. Any time means ANY TIME. That's why it's in caps.

#1. either you have a contract, and forfeit the car b/c of TOS.
#2. don't have contract, and they refuse to sell.

Hey, do you work for Lincoln? Lawyer for them? What's the deal?

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by imafrk

huh?

1. Ebay is an 3rd party auction site. It helps unite sellers and buyers to let people buy & sell shit. Both parties agree to abide by certain rules when they sign up. Dude found himself a sweet deal on brand new M3 and won it. Its that simple. This Shitpump of a dealer tried to attract interest with a relatively low starting bid. Only one person bid and won it. Man up and give the guy his ride. Despite the 'apologetic "sorry we made a mistake have a nice day" phone call from the dealership 15 min after auction ended. What kind of business pulls this kind of kindergaden sandbox deals? lol

Bahhaahahahahah

<takes a breath>


Bahahahhhhahahaaa

2. You seriously think that by omitting the words 'no reserve' under UCC rules in the description of an auction this absolve the dealer? lol

This BS I'm reading about the 'honest mistake' is crap! its not like he's paying $10 for a brand new 2008 M3.

You're making your own law based on ethics. This isn't how contract law works.

It says it under UCC rules explicitly that if there isn't "no reserve" then it has a reserve; i'm not omitting anything.

[kingdaviswaco]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Honestly, now that I come to think of it. Why are we all mad here? Are we all angry because this guy didn't get a chance to buy a $60,000 dollar M3? Now he has to pay more; what an outrage.

The outrage comes when you enter into an agreement with another party, and they refuse to not honor that agreement.

Look, I love the M3, but I aint' got the cash. I just bought a brand new Chevy Aveo in January--can't get much lower than that. It's all I can afford, but I'm okay with that (sigh...). Nevertheless, I arranged the purchase of the car over the internet, was given a quote, and went to the dealership 90 miles away. When there, the sale manager tried to slip me a sales agreement with a $500 higher price. They had some story about a mistake on some line item, but when I showed them the out-the-door price originally given to me, the honored it. I respect them for that.

If this is the MO for the entire industry--trying to weasel out of a deal squarely reached, then it needs to be fixed. You bet this is an outrage, if for no other reason that it threatens the integrity of the online auction market. You just can't go and reneg on a deal and expect the market to accept that. If we do, then what's the fricken point of even using something like ebay? Free markets require an expectation of honesty, and I just don't see that happening here.

Also, if the dealer upped the buy-it-now price during the auction (and I seem to recall that happening), or if they simply had the ability to do so but chose not to exercise that option, then it seems that they are liable for the price they offered to the seller.

I ain't no lawyer, but something clearly smells rotten in Lincoln.

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by Xcellere

Hey jackass, IT IS A CONTRACT. LOOK AT EBAY'S WEBSITE:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/motors-bidding.html

"Remember that each bid you place enters you into a binding contract. If you win a listing, you’re obligated to complete the transaction. Read the User Agreement for details."

"While using the Sites, you will not:

-use the Sites if you are not able to form legally binding contracts, are under the age of 18, or are temporarily or indefinitely suspended from our Sites."

End of story.

Hey, don't get worked up ok? I'm just here to present the law.

I'm saying this, even if it's a contract the offeree has to accept the TOS, which means the dealer can refuse to sell. If he doesn't want to follow the acceptance then it isn't a contract.

Sorry, if I made you tear up. :'(

[The Peregrinus]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

the seller contends he made the offer in error, he never accepted the flawed offer...

it'll take a court to determine:
was there a contract
was there a mistake
is it enforceable
what are the damages

and probably much more to determine
juristiction
etc.

all for 6k$ ?

his best bet is the that the dealer chooses to negotiate
it will cost more to litigate, and the only winners will be the lawyers

OP needn't spend one dime on lawyers. Cost him about 75 bucks depending on the jurisdiction to file the case pro se.

This is an easy case - absolutely cut and dry issue in totally settled law. Their lawyers will know they have a loser and offer to settle. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a settlement offer in the works right now.

If they don't honor the deal, OP should sue. He is entitled to the difference the the price contracted for and the value of the item to be delivered (courts would rarely apply specific damages in cases like this, in otherwords, they won't force the dealership to sell the car to OP for 60 grand - the far more likely remedy will be money damages are easily measured). Basically - they'll have to pay him about 8 grand. He may rather have the car, but this way he'll have 8 grand more to put down on one . . .my guess is with a competing dealer.

[normtrum]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Read some of the UCC rules. An auction doesn't have to say reserve to have a reserve.

Well then I'm confused on this as well....when entering the information for the m3 in question (or any item for that matter) the owner or representative will see the selection option "set reserve?" pop up. At that time you would select what your reserve is. If you select nothing....then there is no reserve. And somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't the op say part of the attraction to this auction was the fact that it was advertised as "no reserve"?

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Hey, do you work for Lincoln? Lawyer for them? What's the deal?

What's the deal? Laws might not be unfair, but we have to respect them. Even if this issue is unethical, we have to acknowledge the way it should be handled legally.

I'm not taking sides here; I'm just presenting the facts and what the law says.

[DJPoop]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

An acceptance, is when the offeree accepts to the terms of an offer, which would mean the dealer can cancel.

Like I said, I'm no expert on how auctions play into traditional offer and acceptance. But I can only assume that once an auction ends, and an offer has been made, and the reserve was either met or there wasn't a reserve, that would act as an acceptance. Otherwise, by your logic, people could just get out of ebay deals all the time by saying the dont agree with the final price the item went for.

Or you could look at it as the dealer made the initial offer by listing the car at 60k, which the buyer accepted by placing his bid. In fact, I think that's probably right since the dealer was the initial offeree with the car listed at 60k.

As to the federal court thing, I think you're right actually.

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by normtrum

Well then I'm confused on this as well....when entering the information for the m3 in question (or any item for that matter) the owner or representative will see the selection option "set reserve?" pop up. At that time you would select what your reserve is. If you select nothing....then there is no reserve. And somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't the op say part of the attraction to this auction was the fact that it was advertised as "no reserve"?

Auctions are by default have a reserve, meaning you a seller can refuse to sell.

Because this auction was a buy now there was not anything that said "No Reserve", therefore by default it had a reserve.

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Hey, don't get worked up ok? I'm just here to present the law.

I'm saying this, even if it's a contract the offeree has to accept the TOS, which means the dealer can refuse to sell. If he doesn't want to follow the acceptance then it isn't a contract.

Sorry, if I made you tear up. :'(

I didn't mean to come off as rude, but you're stating total bullshit. eBay's integrity would cease to exist if any seller could opt out of an auction that didn't end in their favored terms. Once an auction ends, the seller can't say "well I don't like the price so f' off."

EDIT:

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Auctions are by default have a reserve, meaning you a seller can refuse to sell.

Because this auction was a buy now there was not anything that said "No Reserve", therefore by default it had a reserve.

Do you not hear how daft you sound? This isn't some ethereal concept we're dealing with; eBay specifically has a "reserve" function to offset these kinds of problems. There isn't some intangible reserve that gives the seller a get-out-of-a-deal card. I've been on eBay since 1998 and I've sold hundreds of items and I've even dealt with cases similar to this.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

What's the deal? Laws might not be unfair, but we have to respect them. Even if this issue is unethical, we have to acknowledge the way it should be handled legally.

I'm not taking sides here; I'm just presenting the facts and what the law says.

No, it is pretty clear that you are taking a side. There is no reason for you to take such an interest in defending the dealership just on your own. You probably make up the 0.01% of people on this board who do not want to see the OP get his car.

[nightkhan]

Holy crap, I leave for a few hours and hit the gym, and this thread rocketed from 14 pages to 21!!

It's still breaking new records....

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[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by Disinterested Observer

Like I said, I'm no expert on how auctions play into traditional offer and acceptance. But I can only assume that once an auction ends, and an offer has been made, and the reserve was either met or there wasn't a reserve, that would act as an acceptance. Otherwise, by your logic, people could just get out of ebay deals all the time by saying the dont agree with the final price the item went for.

Or you could look at it as the dealer made the initial offer by listing the car at 60k, which the buyer accepted by placing his bid. In fact, I think that's probably right since the dealer was the initial offeree with the car listed at 60k.

As to the federal court thing, I think you're right actually.

The reserve price only benefits the seller. Buyers cannot get out of the contract by saying that.

[DJPoop]

I'n the end, I hope the OP gets his new M3 for 60k. He won the auction so he deserves it, imo. I just hope that it isnt at the sake of some poor sap salesman, that was supposed to list the car on ebay, and fucked up by accidentally not including a reserve, and now has no job and the entire internets ready to tar and feather him.

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by Xcellere

I didn't mean to come off as rude, but you're stating total bullshit. eBay's integrity would cease to exist if any seller could opt out of an auction that didn't end in their favored terms. Once an auction ends, the seller can't say "well I don't like the price so f' off."

Yes it can, look at the TOS: It clearly says that seller can opt out any time.

You're making it sound like Ebay is selling the car to that guy. Anyways how can eBay enforce everything. Businesses, make their TOS bulletproof to avoid issues like this.

Read up on some contract law then get back to me. I don't feel like repeating myself, because I've stated it several times.

A. It's either a contract, and the buyer has to follow the TOS
B. It' s not a contract, seller doesn't have to do anything. Buyer can't take legal action.

[botchka]

@dailyyeah,

Have you ever used eBay? You specifically have to set a reserve price. The auction will always clearly state that there is a reserve (although it won't be disclosed to any potential buyers, what the reserve price is). It's not arbitrary. It either has a reserve or doesn't.

eBay auctions do not have a reserve by default if one is not set by the seller.

[RX7owner]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Hey, don't get worked up ok? I'm just here to present the law.

I'm saying this, even if it's a contract the offeree has to accept the TOS, which means the dealer can refuse to sell. If he doesn't want to follow the acceptance then it isn't a contract.

Sorry, if I made you tear up. :'(

Mr. Yeah,
Most reputable lawyers will clearly spell out that they are *not* giving
legal advice when posting in a forum such as this. If you are a lawyer,
and you're claiming to "present the law", you better be darn sure you're
right (and I don't mean "because I said so" right).

Frankly, I think the new posters who are sympathetic to the dealership
have a bit of a smell about them...

[yes, I'm new; not a lawyer; and I'm disgusted by Husker's behavior]

[DailyYeah]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

No, it is pretty clear that you are taking a side. There is no reason for you to take such an interest in defending the dealership just on your own. You probably make up the 0.01% of people on this board who do not want to see the OP get his car.

Why do lawyers defend people that are convicted for murder? Because they're taking the murderer's side? Anyways compare this analogy to what you think i'm doing. It may not be ethic for the dealer to do something like this, but it's definitely not illegal.

I just think it's a good chance to practice my knowledge of law. But I'm not by any means an expert on law.

[eclipsisNA]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Yes it can, look at the TOS: It clearly says that seller can opt out any time.

You're making it sound like Ebay is selling the car to that guy. Anyways how can eBay enforce everything. Businesses, make their TOS bulletproof to avoid issues like this.

Read up on some contract law then get back to me. I don't feel like repeating myself, because I've stated it several times.

A. It's either a contract, and the buyer has to follow the TOS
B. It' s not a contract, seller doesn't have to do anything. Buyer can't take legal action.

I've been studying contract law for some time now at UCLA. The element of the TOS you're referring to is the "We reserve the right to cancel bids at any time" clause. As I said, that's only when the auction is active. Still don't believe me? Straight from eBay's mouth:

"There is no way to cancel an auction listing or a bid once the auction has ended and a winning bid has occurred. Regardless of your intent, once an auction listing closes and a bidder wins your item or service, you're contractually bound as an eBay seller to accept payment and deliver unless one of the following is true:

* It's a real estate auction. Since eBay real estate auctions (listings for land, investment property, or housing) are non-binding, a seller is not required to sell real estate to the highest bidder even when one exists.

* The other party's account is suspended. Since no eBay member is required to complete a transaction with a member whose account is suspended, a seller need not complete a transaction if the buyer or winning bidder is suspended from eBay once the listing is complete but before shipment has occurred.

* Your listing featured a reserve price. Sellers are not required to sell to the high bidder on an auction listing if there was a reserve price associated with the listing and the reserve price was not met."

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by DailyYeah

Hey, don't get worked up ok? I'm just here to present the law.

But to be clear you aren't actually a lawyer, right? Just a law student at this point, correct? In Texas, if I'm correct?

Just for the record, yeah counselor? Er, future, hopeful counselor that is.

Cheers