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      12-12-2009, 05:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
I can bet the new M cars will follow the X5 M and X6 M. High-revving turbo cars are extremely expensive to produce since the internals need to be designed differently for it to operate reliably for a very long period of time. As of now, BMW cannot even get a low-revving turbo right with all the HPFP issues in 335, a high-revving turbo engine will have far worse reliability issues.

Here is X5 M revving to redline. That is how the next M5 is going to sound:

http://blog.caranddriver.com/tags/na...-exhaust-note/

BMW is getting away from high-revving cars in order to avoid the need for short gearing, final drive due to lots of torque at the low end and to reduce the emissions.

All of the spy videos showing M5 lapping the Nurburgurging (with the big hood hump and quad exhausts) show it to be a turbocharged low-revving car much like the X5 M with no engine note to speak of or write home of.

I can bet the next generation M5 and M3 will have a rev limit of 7000 rpm only and due to slow piston speeds and low compression, it will not sound anything like a racing car.
That is quite amusing to myself as it sounds like the supercharged 5.4 litre Ford Lightning with the same exhaust farts on full throttle shifts minus the blower whine
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      12-12-2009, 05:30 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I'm glad I gave some people a wake up call (so to speak) with those two posts which appear to have done exactly what I intended.
Yeah, you really woke me up. Without your guidance and subjective opinions I could not clearly think my way through to what power characteristics I like in a M car. And thankfully you have BMW M Division's ear so you can point them in new directions since they've gotten it so amazingly wrong thus far.

Understand this, when people speak to high-revving M engines, it should be understood the engines must have the same flat and wide torque curve enabling use of the whole rev counter. That isn't a characteristic of current FI BMW motors, so those FI motors may rev to a respectable 7K rpms, but there's no point to rev them to redline in most gears as the power has gone way south by then. You're great at painting an incomplete picture. That's why there are so many holes in every argument you state.
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      12-12-2009, 05:41 PM   #91
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Talk about painting a misleading picture!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
That isn't a characteristic of current FI BMW motors, so those FI motors may rev to a respectable 7K rpms, but there's no point to rev them to redline in most gears as the power has gone way south by then. You're great at painting an incomplete picture.
The s63 engine puts out 500 foot pounds of torque from 1500 to 5650 rpm. The horsepower peak is at 6000 rpm. I'm reasonably certain that number will go north in the M5.
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      12-12-2009, 06:40 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pearce View Post
The s63 engine puts out 500 foot pounds of torque from 1500 to 5650 rpm. The horsepower peak is at 6000 rpm. I'm reasonably certain that number will go north in the M5.
OK, but I never factor HP to any discussion on engine power as it's meaningless to power delivery as the rate of acceleration follows the torque curve and the torque curve alone. What's more relevant is the torque curve itself from roughly 2,000 rpms to redline. I don't like the feel of diminishing power...it's not fun. I'm also not impressed with high peak engine numbers knowing selected gearing won't allow much more acceleration force to the ground than the current M3 with far less (and far more usable and manageable) engine torque.

I'm reasonably certain the M5 will be the same motor as is. BMW seem to be minimizing variation these days. They've also figured out peak numbers can dupe the public into thinking these engines are more powerful than their best NA efforts. This board proves that.
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      12-12-2009, 06:48 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
That is quite amusing to myself as it sounds like the supercharged 5.4 litre Ford Lightning with the same exhaust farts on full throttle shifts minus the blower whine
Actually unfortunately it is much worse than that. It sounds IDENTICAL to the POS Neon SRT-4. If you ever heard a Neon SRT-4, you will know it sounds identical to the X5 M.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Wow is that audio clip for real? Is that flatulence in between shifts, unreal. However, if you think either of the following is true you are sorely mistaken:

1. Exhaust system design does not have a huge influence on sound.
2. BWM will use the same exhaust system on the XMs and Ms.
I think you can see the M5 spyshots lapping the Nurburgring and you will see it has no engine/exhaust note to speak of much like the X5 M.



Yeah unfortunately that is for real as Car and Driver stuck a camera on the side of the car and then went full throttle on X5 M. If you scroll down, you will see an M3 manual audio as well on the same page. I have actually heard an X6 M in real life in the first week of its release at the local BMW dealership and it had to be the worst engine/exhaust note I heard on an M car.
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      12-12-2009, 07:03 PM   #94
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^^ Turbos mute the exhaust note.
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      12-12-2009, 07:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
^^ Turbos mute the exhaust note.
The same applies to the engine note as well due to a much lower compression and slower piston speeds give them a "lazy character". Turbo motors make almost no soul stirring sounds at any rpm and make the driver want to fall asleep.

This is the upcoming M5 around Nurburgring:



And here is the E60 M5:



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      12-12-2009, 07:15 PM   #96
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concur!
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      12-12-2009, 07:41 PM   #97
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Listen to what the Lexus LFA sounds like.

http://jalopnik.com/5422624/the-lexu...?autoplay=true
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      12-12-2009, 07:52 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Listen to what the Lexus LFA sounds like.

http://jalopnik.com/5422624/the-lexu...?autoplay=true
That's pretty sick.
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      12-12-2009, 08:02 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post

Those of us not persuaded by BMW's slick marketing are now having to downgrade to Porsche, where naturally aspirated high revving motors are still appreciated.
downgrade?
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      12-12-2009, 08:26 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiVinci View Post
imo this will never end because alot of people are scared of change. Each and every time bmw or any other manufacturer dont do EXACTLY as they did yesterday, somebody bitches and this causes a knee jerk reaction and then everybody starts bitching (probably without even knowing why)

e30 to e36 to e46 to e92... same ols sh*t day by day, constant complaining about size, weight, vanos, double vanos, power,etc etc . There were people complaining about M going with a V8 powerplant, because the old striaght was godly. Now we have die hard V8 fans, some of who were whole heartedly against it just a few years ago.

and when M goes F/I and delivers like they always have... what then, yep you guessed it.... you wait for the next thing to b*tch about

I personally love the V8 and the way it delivers its power but at the same time i welcome the change, because without evolution we would still be driving model T's
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      12-12-2009, 10:50 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rldzhao View Post
So what if it has turbo?!

The Ferrari F40 has twin turbo, and it is still celebrated as one of the most hardcore Ferrari ever built.

The Mclaren MP4 has twin turbo, and that revs to 8,500 RPM... while having the highest HP-to-CO2 ratio in the world.

The Nissan GTR has turbos, and NA GT3s are having a hard time catching it on the 'ring.

Come on, with technological advances, turbo does not nessesarily mean losing the true character of sports cars. With proper development it could be just as good.

Stop bashing BMW M just because it is putting turbos into their engines... this is a childish argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Finally someone who doesn't (no offense intended). Comparing a high revving turbo'd F40 to a low revving-turboed is comparing apples to oranges. Its not just the FI, its that its an FI engine, but that its some low-revving turbo.

Cheers,
e46e92
Sorry I have problem following your logic. I am simply saying that FI does NOT equal to 'boring' engine and car. That's it. And at this point how do you know that the M5/6 will have the same 7k redline as the X5/6?!
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      12-12-2009, 10:51 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepper View Post
downgrade?
I said the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Jaypod View Post
You sound like my buddies who have AMG's - Slam the gas, slam the brakes...
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      12-12-2009, 11:21 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
That's pretty sick.


Look at how fast it gets to 9000+ rpm (being driven by race car driver Scott Pruett).

That is the beauty of highly engineered, high-revving engines with tons of compression and super fast piston speeds.

Lexus is just getting in the game and they are coming with a bang since the LF-A is simply astonishing. BMW has been doing it for years and they built an amazing V10 in the M5. All they needed was a super light car weighing no more than 3300 - 3400 lbs and stash an updated more efficient version S65 V8 and V10 in the next generation. It would have improved everything.

Instead, such a shame that BMW decided to pick the character-less, boring, bland low-compression engine with a turbo slapped on it route.
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      12-13-2009, 12:58 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Instead, such a shame that BMW decided to pick the character-less, boring, bland low-compression engine with a turbo slapped on it route.
Only due to emissions. Certainly wasn't their desire, but they'll do what they have to do to sell cars, which is the necessity of it all.
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      12-13-2009, 01:43 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Turbo motors make almost no soul stirring sounds at any rpm and make the driver want to fall asleep.
I agree that the exhaust note of the X5M sounds like ass based on that video. I've actually never heard anything sound that weird on shifts. I'm really surprised that M let the X5M out sounding like that. Of course they also let the E46 M3 out with an exhaust note that many people hated, but was easily corrected with some aftermarket tinkering.

There are many turbo engines that sound really nice IMHO - flat6s and 4s for one. The C5 RS6 V8 biturbo motor also sounds amazing, and the Audi v6 2.7 biturbo really sounded/sounds great too. There are many more examples, just as I'm sure there are many that sound muffled, farty, whatever.

Of course, I think my M3 blows them out of the water though. I was literally laughing when I test drove the car for the first time. I said to my wife, "do you hear that engine - wow!".
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      12-13-2009, 01:49 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post


Look at how fast it gets to 9000+ rpm (being driven by race car driver Scott Pruett).

That is the beauty of highly engineered, high-revving engines with tons of compression and super fast piston speeds.

Lexus is just getting in the game and they are coming with a bang since the LF-A is simply astonishing. BMW has been doing it for years and they built an amazing V10 in the M5. All they needed was a super light car weighing no more than 3300 - 3400 lbs and stash an updated more efficient version S65 V8 and V10 in the next generation. It would have improved everything.

Instead, such a shame that BMW decided to pick the character-less, boring, bland low-compression engine with a turbo slapped on it route.
That thing really does sound terrific. The speed at which engines rev is also something people overlook when they become fixated on peak numbers at a given RPM.
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      12-13-2009, 02:08 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
Listen to what the Lexus LFA sounds like.

http://jalopnik.com/5422624/the-lexu...?autoplay=true
One of the sounding engines of all time. Also note, unlike where the masses seem to be going, the Lexus uses an SMG/Ferrari F1 style single clutch style transmission and the blips sound amazing.
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      12-13-2009, 02:40 AM   #108
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Just buy the fucking car when it comes out or don't, stop nagging. BMW will get more sales one way or another. Inductive reasoning has led them to believe FI >>> NA in sales. No one cares about a pretentious 330i driver who is enamored with NA.

"OMG, I AM SO MAD AT ///M RIGHT NOW!"


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      12-13-2009, 03:11 AM   #109
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Exactly what is wrong with this turbo car's exhaust note.



All a turbo does is alter the note you have to work with and it's up to the engineers developing the exhaust system to produce something special.
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      12-13-2009, 04:19 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
That's pretty sick.
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