|
|
01-23-2019, 04:50 AM | #23 | |
Colonel
2357
Rep 2,359
Posts
Drives: G87 M2; E92M3 MT&DCT; M3 euro
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: nyc
|
Quote:
I am the old car type guy. Screaming 9000 rpm at 125ps/L, AP1 S2000 is by far my favorite roadster I have ever driven. If you put Spoon exhaust, it almost resembles an F1 car...Same reason why I got E92. Got a very exotic V8 that literally sounds nothing like other V8s. They just don't make 'em like they used to do.... I have to confess though, I really like the overall package of F82 M4. I would love to add one in my garage for different fun, but I wouldn't trade E92 for it
__________________
Pass me if you can.
Last edited by kyrix1st; 01-23-2019 at 06:41 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
2
SYT_Shadow11468.50 DrFerry6727.00 |
01-23-2019, 07:45 AM | #24 | |
///M Powered for Life
11469
Rep 10,328
Posts |
Quote:
I've driven all those cars save the McLaren. I want to know what people are smoking when they say current AMGs sound good. They sound terrible. The sound thing that's always mentioned on F8X cars is the same as the torqueless complaint of the E9X. Turbo engines sound bad and the F8X also sounds bad, but very similar to other turbo engines. This is not the deal breaker for me. Numb steering at the track is. I have most experience with the GTS on track and, like all Ms, it is a pussycat to drive fast. Super predictable, plenty of warning before letting go, etc. If I were to buy a new track car the F8X would be the only game in town for me |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 08:51 AM | #26 | ||
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
The G80 pure sounds good to me. Capped power, 6MT, lightweight, RWD. Should be badass as long as it looks good. Also totally agreed on the HSO NA screamer motors - the ultimate. But I love all performance cars and judge them based on their overall package. The current M3/4 is mind-blowing as a package, even though it may lack certain subjective qualities of the older cars. It's okay to be fair/honest about the pros/cons of different platforms. It's okay to try and appreciate and enjoy different formulas. Going turbo does require a mental adjustment. But once you recalibrate your mind you realize how expertly dialed the S55 really is. The part throttle response/resolution/control and POWER is like no M3 before. That doesn't make it better or more fulfilling in all ways but it's freaking damn good. Quote:
And agreed on the lack of tonality. I also agree that the modern AMGs sound like horseshit from outside the car. But I also think a modern 'Vette sounds muddy and not good. Camaro, too, doesn't really sound like V8 should. Now the regular, plane-Jane Coyote.... that's a motor that sounds amazing.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 10:30 AM | #27 |
Major General
5250
Rep 5,874
Posts |
Interesting to hear everyone's take. Historically we hear only those who can't stand F8x, sold it, went back to E9x, Porsche, MB, etc. I've spent time in it on the track for a half day and was mightily impressed with the F8x in that setting but every time I hear one on the street I just can't get past the sound. I think they look good but the visuals don't tickle me that much either. If I'm spending M4 kind of money, I need to be falling down in love with the car. I have some money but I'm by no means loaded.
If I lived in a dry climate there is no way I would even glance at AWD but with roads wet and probably <60F the majority of the year where I live, 400+ torque through 2 wheels gets fairly frustrating. Summer months are glorious though for RWD but there are only 5 real good months for driving here and even those have a very good chance to bring rain with them. With the option for AWD (and it won't be your typical AWD if it shares tuning with the M5 and M235/240xi), I will happily take the power boost and compromises of larger size + turbo characteristics. Personally I think the new car will look better as well but that remains to be seen and is of course subjective. The biggest thing I am not looking forward to is the expected $80k+ price tag of G80 xDrive. Depending on my financials at the time, this alone might put me into an M2Comp in a few years instead. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 11:00 AM | #28 | |
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
That said, you should test drive a 6MT ZCP car. Put the throttle in Sport+ (trust me on this) and pay close attention to the boost ramp up just below 3k and the amount of control, and power, available above 3k. Even when it rains here I have little to no traction issues because the car is calibrated so well.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 11:19 AM | #29 |
Captain
467
Rep 804
Posts
Drives: Some fun stuff
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Philly, PA
|
I only spent time driving the F8x cars at a BMW M driving event, but it was an excellent experience. The current car is very capable--I was simply blown away how well the car handles the track in stock form. There is nothing that jumped out at me after throwing the car around that I felt really needed to change.
But the reality is, our cars and the F8x car represent the change from analog to digital. The e9x cars just feel really different. The seating is more driver focused in the F8x, which a lot of people prefer. I like sitting a little higher up in the e9x cars. Although more driver focused and more modern in design in the F8x, I couldn't shake the feeling that the interior materials were cheaper/more plasticky than the e9x. I'm not a steering homer, so the feel/lack of feel in the f8x cars really didn't come to mind when I was driving. From within the car, the sound is fine. But, OMG, what a disaster the sound is on the outside of an F8x car. And some will say it doesn't matter, but when I have the windows down in my e9x car, you can bet I hear the brawny exhaust. So will the G8x cars improve upon the F8x cars? If you believe the magazine hype regarding early drives of the G2x, then that bodes really well for the M3. I suspect that the sweet spot like it was the e9x and F8x will be with the inevitable competition package. It just baffles me that the regular series I6 motors from BMW have a very decent exhaust note. But the motorsports tweaked motors sound downright terrible. I've always wondered why this seems to be the issue. Everyone else can make a performance engine that sounds better than the regular series motors. If you're interested in the latest and greatest, I'm sure the G8x will be excellent. Definitely worth looking into. But at the same time, there is just something both classic and awesome about the S65, even as more modern versions of the M3 turn better numbers and potentially even drive better. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 11:28 AM | #30 | |
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
Agreed that the seating position in the F8X is much more driver oriented - it is a marked difference from the E46/E9X whether good or bad. Agreed that the interior felt a little better built in the E9X, but only slightly. I also liked the no nonsense "all business" simplicity. The F8X interior is a bit too blingy if I'm honest. That said, both interiors feel cheaper and rattle more than the E46 - I think that was the pinnacle of interior robustness. Finally, regarding the sound of the motorsports engines - the offensive farting sound is due to the anti-lag system. When the boost builds in the manifold and throttle is relaxed, the valves remain open (the S55 is valvetronic so throttle = valve lift) and let the excess boost bleed through the exhaust system keeping the turbos spooled. It sounds horrible but it's pretty trick functionality. Solid case of function over form here. I'm wondering if this will change with the S58 motor. Edit - the burbles are synthetic. Some like'em some don't. I don't (probably would if I was 10 years younger but they're very "showy"). Tuners can easily disable them.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 Last edited by EricSMG; 01-23-2019 at 11:34 AM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 11:41 AM | #31 |
Major General
2759
Rep 5,484
Posts |
The smallest M car has always been the most fun drive. Whether you’re willing to live with the downsides is a life choice
The 1M came along, and even taken out of the oven 40 minutes early, it was still a damn hoot |
01-23-2019, 02:17 PM | #32 | |
Major General
5250
Rep 5,874
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 02:46 PM | #33 | |
Captain
467
Rep 804
Posts
Drives: Some fun stuff
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Philly, PA
|
Quote:
Could you comment on the offense noise of the S55 during acceleration? That's really what I'm offended about most with that engine. From a stop, the regular series engines have a deeper, more tuned sound to them. The S55 is just noise and rasp. And when people put aftermarket exhausts on their F8x cars, it's awful. Just for the record, although the S65 sounds better in comparison, as a V8, it's pretty underwhelming. Just about any performance oriented V8 sounds better. I'll take the exhaust noise of my FCA 392 at high rpms all day vs the S65. This criticism extends to the S54 as well, IMO. Why BMW, why do you do this to an otherwise brilliant to drive vehicle! |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 03:07 PM | #34 | ||
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
I have a 2 car garage that holds 2 cars (crazy, I know), and an HD pickup on the street. I do not need/want/care to deal with any more vehicles than that. One car is mine and the other is my wife's - we both want to drive M3s. The truck is for the nasty stuff. Quote:
I also agree that most F8Xs with exhaust sound like shit because everyone goes overboard. The factory ZCP and CS cars sound really quite good from inside the cabin. None of that awkwardness from outside carries inside. It's got some tone, some depth and a little midrange shriek that suites the car's aggressive/sharp character well. The S55 is a total hooligan street bombster - mega punch all the time. It's basically got 2 modes - before boost and in boost and this happens just before 3k rpm... once you're in the boost it's game time. Just 1/4 throttle in any gear and you're so far ahead of traffic it's silly. Go full throttle and you should be focused and paying attention but wow is this thing FAST. Any time, any place, any rpm (3k+), every single throttle tip in - it rips, hard. Extremely fun. It isn't perfect though. I have only a single complaint about it and it's not a small one - while the motor is literally and truly lag-free in any part throttle situation (at or above 3krpm), it can be a bit laggy if you *snap* open the throttle. This makes it not quite as fulfilling as the S65 when you're really really in the heat of the moment - but in all other situations it's sublime. It responds well to smooth, quick roll-ons... never a full WOT snap open.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 Last edited by EricSMG; 01-23-2019 at 03:26 PM.. |
||
Appreciate
0
|
01-23-2019, 04:53 PM | #35 |
Second Lieutenant
348
Rep 203
Posts |
Will it redeem the M3? In one word, no.
Each model M3 is vastly different from its predecessor. Once a simple drivers car turned into a piece of engineering marvel, for better or for worse. As generations pass, cars evolve. Comparing any M3 to its late model will surely disappoint the true enthusiast. Take a look back at the E46 forums circa 2008. When the E92 came out, people were disgusted that BMW replaced the tried and true inline 6 with a gawdy V8. The steering was numb, the brakes bad, and the look was too bubbly. There was a whole mess of enthusiasts outraged that BMW "ruined the M3." Now, those same people are basking in the glory of said V8, and pissed off about the turbo inline 6 in its current form. I don't think this new generation, the G80, will redeem the M3; rather it will force us to take a hard look at the F80 and perhaps realize it was a far purer car than we now know. This is the redemption I see forthcoming. As each generation passes, these cars will get faster, safer, and more advanced. With that, we lose touch with some of what makes these cars so great: the purity. It's surprising to me that this thread is comprised of lap times, wheelbase figures, torque ratings, etc. This is not what gives the M3 its redeeming qualities. It's all about the feel, and until we drive the G80, there's really no way to tell. |
Appreciate
1
Transfer5250.00 |
01-23-2019, 11:19 PM | #36 |
Lieutenant Colonel
2146
Rep 1,649
Posts |
The E9X leans more towards a luxury GT car than out and out sports car in my opinion. Having grown up driving lightweight euro hatches such as the Peugeot 306, the E9x doesn't feel that raw to me at all. My E46 330i was considerably more 'raw' and it was just a cooking model.
After nearly 2 years and around 10K miles in my e9x as much as I love it, I think its missing a level of focus and ferocity to really make it a legendary car. It feels connected, but somewhat muted at the same time. The F8x has the ferocity and focus, but it's a little charmless and 'digital'. Ultimately it depends what your looking for but I am still of the mind that Porsche does it better than anyone. Short of a Huracan Performante, to my ears a flat 6 always sounds better than a cross plane V8. M cars achilles heel used to be brakes, now its damping. Porsche does a much more sophisticated job who it comes to suspension, but thats reflected in the price. Unless the G80 really drops some serious budget on the suspension I really don't think it will be much of a step over the F80 chassis wise. Engine wise the S58 may be significantly better, maybe not. Like I sad in my previous post, I think the F80 woo become more appreciated over time. |
Appreciate
0
|
01-24-2019, 08:21 AM | #37 |
///M Powered for Life
11469
Rep 10,328
Posts |
I don't think there is any need to redeem the M3. Every generation is the best among its peers for track use, which is what matters.
|
01-24-2019, 08:53 AM | #38 |
Major General
2759
Rep 5,484
Posts |
Yep and every generation is different and fun in its own way. I think the danger is that the G80 starts to take the Porsche route of formulaic evolution rather than each model having a new personality. M5 is already dangerously close to this their last trick in the bag was giving it a big fat front tire and AWD, the only direction to go now is lightweighting + electrification to hold the line on overall vehicle weight
__________________
|
Appreciate
1
SYT_Shadow11468.50 |
01-28-2019, 10:43 PM | #39 | |
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
Even IF the G80 has a larger POI, what if the chassis/steering/suspension are so good that it actually changes direction much easier/quicker? You'll still be in denial spewing math/theory. Get real dude. If a car is fun to drive it's fun to drive.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 Last edited by EricSMG; 01-28-2019 at 10:54 PM.. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-29-2019, 07:04 AM | #40 | |
///M Powered for Life
11469
Rep 10,328
Posts |
Quote:
My E92 is not a full stripper and weighs 3600 with a full tank. Going by F80 weights, the lightest one I've seen weighed is 3530 with a full tank of fuel for a full stripper. I have $50 that says we won't see AWD G80s under 3600 with a full tank. Too much standard equipment, too large, stupid all-wheel-shit drive... |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-29-2019, 02:03 PM | #41 | |
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 |
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-29-2019, 02:40 PM | #42 |
///M Powered for Life
11469
Rep 10,328
Posts |
I'm still hoping this talk of AWD is fantasy...
|
Appreciate
0
|
01-29-2019, 04:20 PM | #43 |
Captain
574
Rep 829
Posts |
From what I've read it will be optional.
AWD = more horsepower, DCT only RWD = slightly less power, 6MT or DCT I know which one I want.
__________________
Current - 2022 540XI M Sport, BSM/Black Sold - many M3s and an M4 |
Appreciate
0
|
01-29-2019, 04:42 PM | #44 | |
///M Powered for Life
11469
Rep 10,328
Posts |
Quote:
But if the ZCP/CS/GTS models are AWD only it will make it hard to choose the manual for the track as it won't be the happy situation you have now where anyone can retrofit GTS goodies (Diff, tranny, dsc) For street use it is clear, for track use they will force my hand |
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|