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      01-15-2015, 11:16 AM   #133
UncleWede
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I don't believe you have any coins in your pocket
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      01-15-2015, 01:53 PM   #134
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You sound like you've seen my pockets, cause that's an eerily accurate prediction
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      01-15-2015, 02:00 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
I don't believe you have any coins in your pocket
And I, of course, believe he may have some or he may not.
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      01-15-2015, 02:21 PM   #136
Devious21
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
And I, of course, believe he may have some or he may not.
Funnily enough, everyone should believe that.

That proposition is "I may or may not have coins on my pocket". That's something theists and atheists alike should be able to accept.

It's really just acknowledging that those are the options.

Remember, "May" just means "Possible". Everyone but he most strict and confident theists and atheists/anti-theists also believe both are possible. But we are really asking what you've been convinced to be true. We're not asking you to rule out either option as impossible. Simply if either option has sufficiently convinced you.

Last edited by Devious21; 01-15-2015 at 02:29 PM. Reason: devious21
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      01-15-2015, 04:00 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Devious21 View Post
Funnily enough, everyone should believe that.

That proposition is "I may or may not have coins on my pocket". That's something theists and atheists alike should be able to accept.

It's really just acknowledging that those are the options.

Remember, "May" just means "Possible". Everyone but he most strict and confident theists and atheists/anti-theists also believe both are possible. But we are really asking what you've been convinced to be true. We're not asking you to rule out either option as impossible. Simply if either option has sufficiently convinced you.
Reasonable question. Not only am I not convinced either way, I think that any reasonable scientist would be foolish to put odds on it. Which is why I edited out the 50/50 thing, it was a poor attempt to describe my uncertainty. I do think either alternative is a significant possibility, well worth considering.

When I'm pleased with the world, I am somewhat more inclined to attribute it to a creator. When bad things happen, somewhat more inclined to believe the world is a random result of physics. A reasonable thing, given that most all descriptions of a creator make them good and benevolent.

By the way, for an clear case of a situation where a number of competent scientists think it is fully correct to believe both A and not A simultaneously, read the Wikipedia article on "Schroedinger's cat". Or other sources but, as usual, Wikipedia is particularly clear and easy to read. Not to say it will change your mind.

"Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics. However, since Schrödinger's time, other interpretations of the mathematics of quantum mechanics have been advanced by physicists, some of which regard the "alive and dead" cat superposition as quite real."

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 01-15-2015 at 04:13 PM.
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      01-15-2015, 08:57 PM   #138
Devious21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Reasonable question. Not only am I not convinced either way, I think that any reasonable scientist would be foolish to put odds on it. Which is why I edited out the 50/50 thing, it was a poor attempt to describe my uncertainty. I do think either alternative is a significant possibility, well worth considering.
Ah, I missed that edit. Yeah, Iwas fairly sure you didn't mean actual probability but I've also been surprised at people's beliefs before, so I always accept what they are telling me is what they actually believe.


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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
By the way, for an clear case of a situation where a number of competent scientists think it is fully correct to believe both A and not A simultaneously, read the Wikipedia article on "Schroedinger's cat". Or other sources but, as usual, Wikipedia is particularly clear and easy to read. Not to say it will change your mind.

"Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics. However, since Schrödinger's time, other interpretations of the mathematics of quantum mechanics have been advanced by physicists, some of which regard the "alive and dead" cat superposition as quite real."
I'm very familiar with Schroedinger. I actually got my mom one of these for her Birthday

That's actually a great point. Schrodinger's Cat is a great example of something that appears to violate the law on noncontradiction. You can read many rebuttals to this online.

Now, while you could say that Schrodinger's Cat describes a scenario where the Law of Noncontridiction breaks down (and many people will argue that it still does not), I can assure you that the simple propositions we are discussing are not those paradoxes and absolutely must adhere to it.
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