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      08-27-2014, 01:52 PM   #45
Dalko43
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
But I don't dismiss it. It's in the "all of the above" strategy set out above. It goes hand in hand with electric vehicles.

When exactly was I dismissive?

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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
Everyone has their own pet idea about how to reduce our dependence on oil. I say we do them all. So sure, devote some resources to fusion research. But we've done that for many years with relatively little progress. The other technologies I listed above are working, right now. Most all of them are getting cheaper every day, too.

If you want recognized expertise involved, these guys have it. I'm not saying they have the complete solution either, but the individual bits make a lot of sense. A lot more practical than fusion, because no basic advances in science are needed.

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles...-it-works.html

Are they overestimating the savings? Maybe, but these are only a part of the "all of the above" strategy.
Both parts in bold suggest that you view fusion energy as stagnant (or at a dead end) and impractical.

The problem with that mentality is that nuclear energy is one of the only sources that offers the potential of being nearly perpetual.

You are ready to embrace green energy systems (solar, wind, hydro-electric, ect.) as the way of the future, but none of those systems by themselves or even as a collective whole can fulfill the US' massive energy requirements, let alone the world's requirements. That's the reason fossil fuels still dominate the energy markets. As much as everyone wants to lessen our impact on the environment, green energy can't fill the shoes of fossil fuels.

Whereas the US could truly lessen its polluting effect and carbon emissions if it converted its powergrid to nuclear plants...but that topic never seems to come up in these types of discussions for some odd reason.
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      08-27-2014, 04:02 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Both parts in bold suggest that you view fusion energy as stagnant (or at a dead end) and impractical.

The problem with that mentality is that nuclear energy is one of the only sources that offers the potential of being nearly perpetual.

You are ready to embrace green energy systems (solar, wind, hydro-electric, ect.) as the way of the future, but none of those systems by themselves or even as a collective whole can fulfill the US' massive energy requirements, let alone the world's requirements. That's the reason fossil fuels still dominate the energy markets. As much as everyone wants to lessen our impact on the environment, green energy can't fill the shoes of fossil fuels.

Whereas the US could truly lessen its polluting effect and carbon emissions if it converted its powergrid to nuclear plants...but that topic never seems to come up in these types of discussions for some odd reason.
Got it. My mistake. Sorry I didn't check out your reference. I foolishly assumed it was some improvement in fission.

Two forms of nuclear. Fission and fusion. I support nuclear fission. Along with other strategies.

Fusion is still a long way off, with fundamental advances needed before we have a practical economic fusion reactor. As an (old) scientist, I've seen many many years of fusion being "20 years off". It's always "20 years off".

I did say I supported fusion research. But as a practical tool it's way behind the other options.

Still I was admittedly dismissive of fusion. But not of nuclear.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 08-27-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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      08-27-2014, 05:37 PM   #47
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      08-27-2014, 08:11 PM   #48
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The US has reached parity - we are exporting about as much as we import. We also have vast amounts of natural gas ( and the ANWAR is untapped), and could be leveraging that massively in less than 20 years, and reducing air pollution. We also have nuclear, which is virtually unlimited, and even though we abandoned nuclear power in the 1970's (largely due to a Jane Fonda movie...), the French figured out how to recycle and re-process the waste, so it's nearly clean.

Instead, the Eco movement has us tax funding wind and solar (been around for decades, and still not viable), and refusing natural gas because of "global warming" and alleged impact on the ANWAR. And if you think the Global Warming thing is a falsehood, economic redistribution plan, and political ploy with the US as the ultimate loser, you may be correct! Apparently President Obama is again bypassing Congress to get his way:

http://<a href="http://thehill.com/h...on-climate</a>

Here's a thought: how about we remove the 20million illegals in the country. We would reduce our energy consumption, decrease our traffic and pollution, as well as boosting our social services, reduce water, infrastructure, and taxes - and that's just for starters!
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      08-27-2014, 09:27 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post

That was my whole point, that our dependence on oil has unacceptable downsides for us. We need to get out of our oil dependence so we can have the luxury of caring as little about the Middle East, as we do about Sudan. The conflicts in the Middle East are even more intractable.

T
I hear you, and 100% agree that foreign dependence is a big weakness for us. Where we disagree is just on how to do it. I think the most practical way is to focus on ALL sources of energy, not favoring one type over another with subsides. When the technology finally exists to provide cheaper energy than fossil fuels, people won't need any encouragement to use them. It will simply be a no brainer economic decision.
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      08-28-2014, 08:38 AM   #50
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If it was such a mistake to invade Iraq when Saddam was in power, why is it now the polar opposite and seem like a viable solution?

What is it about ISIS that is so different than Saddam? Both commit acts of genocide on their own people. One did it for religious reasons, one for political reasons. Both hate the U.S. and both have a substantial military. Why is it now such a good idea?
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      08-28-2014, 09:24 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
If it was such a mistake to invade Iraq when Saddam was in power, why is it now the polar opposite and seem like a viable solution?

What is it about ISIS that is so different than Saddam? Both commit acts of genocide on their own people. One did it for religious reasons, one for political reasons. Both hate the U.S. and both have a substantial military. Why is it now such a good idea?
Sadam was content with staying in Iraq. ISIS has made it very clear that they want to spread their terror to the west.
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      08-28-2014, 09:49 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
Sadam was content with staying in Iraq. ISIS has made it very clear that they want to spread their terror to the west.
Playing devils advocate here but...

what about north korea, they make verbal threats about striking washington with rockets and are carrying out rocket experiments yet nobody is up in arms about invading them. Do they not seem like a more realistic threat with greater capabilities than ISIS?
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      08-28-2014, 10:45 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Playing devils advocate here but...

what about north korea, they make verbal threats about striking washington with rockets and are carrying out rocket experiments yet nobody is up in arms about invading them. Do they not seem like a more realistic threat with greater capabilities than ISIS?
Thats a good point.
I believe the US doesn't want to start anything with NK because they know they have a psychopathic leader with nuclear capabilites. It could start ww3.
This is just my opinion
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      08-28-2014, 10:55 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
Thats a good point.
I believe the US doesn't want to start anything with NK because they know they have a psychopathic leader with nuclear capabilites. It could start ww3.
This is just my opinion
Could it be that new tech intelligence shows that they don't have the capability they claim to have?
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      08-28-2014, 11:03 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Could it be that new tech intelligence shows that they don't have the capability they claim to have?
Intelligence also shows that ISIS doesn't have the international networking needed to carry out attacks on our soil... YET

Just as NK continues to develop and advance itself, ISIS is attempting to train youths in other countries under the pretense of "these people are coming to help fight in Syria. I claim BULLSHIT, they are using Syria as a terrorist camp ground to train those from other countries.

Like I said, there are similarities but WHY is it that we are infatuated with this ISIS CRISIS (surprised I haven't seen that headline yet).
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      08-28-2014, 11:44 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Could it be that new tech intelligence shows that they don't have the capability they claim to have?
also a valid theory. they could be all bark and no bite
i dont think there is a way to know for sure as NK is so secretive
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      08-28-2014, 11:46 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Intelligence also shows that ISIS doesn't have the international networking needed to carry out attacks on our soil... YET

Just as NK continues to develop and advance itself, ISIS is attempting to train youths in other countries under the pretense of "these people are coming to help fight in Syria. I claim BULLSHIT, they are using Syria as a terrorist camp ground to train those from other countries.

Like I said, there are similarities but WHY is it that we are infatuated with this ISIS CRISIS (surprised I haven't seen that headline yet).
i think its the fact that we are seeing Americans going and fighting for ISIS. it was announced a couple of days ago that 2 Americans have been killed fighting for ISIS.
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      08-28-2014, 12:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
Sadam was content with staying in Iraq. ISIS has made it very clear that they want to spread their terror to the west.
Right, Saddam was content with staying in Iraq.
Except for:
-Iran/Iraq war which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths
-sending scuds into Israel and Saudi Arabia
-Invasion and conquering of Kuwait
- mass genocidal operations being waged against anyone who wasn't a Sunni Baathist.
-harboring international terrorists.

But other than that, I agree with you, Saddam just kept to himself and stayed in Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Intelligence also shows that ISIS doesn't have the international networking needed to carry out attacks on our soil... YET
You are greatly underestimating the threat that ISIS could pose. The Western world isn't necessarily worried about ISIS conducting attacks on their home soil today...the problem is that if ISIS is allowed to grow and develop unchallenged, it could turn into another safehaven for terrorist groups (Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, Mali, ect.) And with their geo location, they would be in a good position to destabilize nearby countries (IRaq, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Israel).

If you only look at all extremist groups in terms of the damage potential they have against our home countries, you are missing the true threat they present to the international security as a whole.
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      08-28-2014, 12:42 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Right, Saddam was content with staying in Iraq.
Except for:
-Iran/Iraq war which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths
-sending scuds into Israel and Saudi Arabia
-Invasion and conquering of Kuwait
- mass genocidal operations being waged against anyone who wasn't a Sunni Baathist.
-harboring international terrorists.

But other than that, I agree with you, Saddam just kept to himself and stayed in Iraq.

.
sorry, meant middle east.
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      08-28-2014, 02:42 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Right, Saddam was content with staying in Iraq.
Except for:
-Iran/Iraq war which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths
-sending scuds into Israel and Saudi Arabia
-Invasion and conquering of Kuwait
- mass genocidal operations being waged against anyone who wasn't a Sunni Baathist.
-harboring international terrorists.

But other than that, I agree with you, Saddam just kept to himself and stayed in Iraq.


You are greatly underestimating the threat that ISIS could pose. The Western world isn't necessarily worried about ISIS conducting attacks on their home soil today...the problem is that if ISIS is allowed to grow and develop unchallenged, it could turn into another safehaven for terrorist groups (Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Pakistan, Mali, ect.) And with their geo location, they would be in a good position to destabilize nearby countries (IRaq, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon, Israel).

If you only look at all extremist groups in terms of the damage potential they have against our home countries, you are missing the true threat they present to the international security as a whole.
Trust me, I understand. As I stated before, i'm trying to play devil's advocate. Despite how much of a threat ISIS is, there are many other threats who have the same potential. Imagine a North/South Korean war, we would be dragged into that faster than being pulled into another middle eastern conflict. Also, being that asia is one of the most heavily militarized areas in the world, I see the fall out of a situation such as that being much worst...

Anyway, ISIS is a threat, our leaders are in a tough situation following just pulling out of Iraq and now being presented with a real threat. Interesting to see how the administration is going to make it's way through this one.
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      08-28-2014, 05:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Trust me, I understand. As I stated before, i'm trying to play devil's advocate.
Devil's advocate for what position/argument?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Despite how much of a threat ISIS is, there are many other threats who have the same potential. Imagine a North/South Korean war, we would be dragged into that faster than being pulled into another middle eastern conflict. Also, being that asia is one of the most heavily militarized areas in the world, I see the fall out of a situation such as that being much worst...
North Korea is a decrepit country with a crumbing economy and a facade of a military...the only reason they can still function is because of the massive aid and support they receive from China and Russia. That same aid and support is also what ensures they will never start another war. Is North Korea a detriment to human rights and progressive governance? Yes...but a threat to the US, South Korea or the world as a whole...not so long as they are reliant on Chinese/Russian $.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Anyway, ISIS is a threat, our leaders are in a tough situation following just pulling out of Iraq and now being presented with a real threat. Interesting to see how the administration is going to make it's way through this one.
Our leaders got themselves into this situation by standing by while an autocratic Syrian government massacred its own people and instigated extremist groups to take hold there. Our leaders also stood by as these same extremist groups gradually infiltrated and physically took control of western Iraq over the course of a year or more. This threat ISIS presents did not spawn over night and our leaders' foreign policy, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with why this threat has grown as large and as quickly as it has.
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      08-29-2014, 09:07 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Devil's advocate for what position/argument?


North Korea is a decrepit country with a crumbing economy and a facade of a military...the only reason they can still function is because of the massive aid and support they receive from China and Russia. That same aid and support is also what ensures they will never start another war. Is North Korea a detriment to human rights and progressive governance? Yes...but a threat to the US, South Korea or the world as a whole...not so long as they are reliant on Chinese/Russian $.



Our leaders got themselves into this situation by standing by while an autocratic Syrian government massacred its own people and instigated extremist groups to take hold there. Our leaders also stood by as these same extremist groups gradually infiltrated and physically took control of western Iraq over the course of a year or more. This threat ISIS presents did not spawn over night and our leaders' foreign policy, or lack thereof, has a lot to do with why this threat has grown as large and as quickly as it has.
Do you think ISIS is a greater threat than al-qaeda?
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      08-29-2014, 10:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Do you think ISIS is a greater threat than al-qaeda?
At the moment, I think it's pointless trying to quantify a difference between the two. They are both very dangerous threats to international security, especially regional security in the Middle East and North Africa. And they are extremist groups of a similar nature.

I think the fact that Al Qaeda is still cohesive and functioning, despite 10+ years of US/NATO lobbing cruise missiles, employing ground forces, and developing one of the most intensive intelligence programs in the history of mankind, should be a warning to western leaders that if they continue to procrastinate, ISIS could mature into a group with the same level of persistence and sophistication.

Last edited by Dalko43; 08-29-2014 at 02:16 PM.
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      08-29-2014, 06:17 PM   #64
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ISIS is good for business, you watch, when ISIS eventually dissolves the US will take credit and sure enough an even more gruesome terror group will spring from nowhere.
Its only those countries/corporations with vested interests that will claim to be the liberators of the oppressed.
Truly there are 'crimes against humanity' occurring all over the world and no benevolent helping hand to be seen. Heck, it was the Nazi's that put Armstrong on the moon bankrolled by the benevolent liberators.... go figure.
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      09-02-2014, 08:07 PM   #65
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ISIS is good for business, you watch, when ISIS eventually dissolves the US will take credit and sure enough an even more gruesome terror group will spring from nowhere.
Its only those countries/corporations with vested interests that will claim to be the liberators of the oppressed.
Truly there are 'crimes against humanity' occurring all over the world and no benevolent helping hand to be seen. Heck, it was the Nazi's that put Armstrong on the moon bankrolled by the benevolent liberators.... go figure.
Business always first my friend.
The Nazi's put Armstrong on the moon? Uhhh... Dude... you need help you won't get from this forum.
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      09-02-2014, 08:08 PM   #66
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Today ISIS beheaded another American. An outrage, at best. And what is President's Obama's reaction? Has anyone seen a news report on Obama's reaction?
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