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      07-28-2014, 01:55 PM   #45
Petros
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
im glad you posted that link, it is about time that the jews decided to defend themselves outside of israel. this was in response to the attacks on jews, again hamas supports starting the violence. should the jews in this case just sit back and take the beating?
"Defending" themselves? They're the ones who stalked the palestinians and instigated the rioting. And even if what you say is true there are police and security forces. You don't just riot and resort to vigilantism
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      07-28-2014, 02:00 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
"Defending" themselves? They're the ones who stalked the palestinians and instigated the rioting. And even if what you say is true there are police and security forces. You don't just riot and resort to vigilantism
so then you condemn this as well?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/25...firming-photo/

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybens...paris-n1862092
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      07-28-2014, 02:00 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
again, using the difference in casualties is very misleading as israel has developed an effective way to defend its civilians via the iron dome system, bomb shelters, air raid sirens, etc. the death toll on the israeli side would be MUCH higher if it hadnt taken these measures

instead of hamas using the billions in aid that they got to help develop the economy and maybe build a defense system they use it to buy rockets and build terror tunnels to infiltrate israel and protect their ammunition.

hamas could also stop using human shields, i bet that would help with the civilian deaths in gaza

the difference here is that israel uses its weapons to protect its civilians whereas hamas uses its civilians to protect its weapons.

by the way, there is no occupation in gaza. hamas fired rockets at israeli civilians first, what would you suggest israel do? just sit under the iron dome and wait for the hamas to run out of rockets? no country would do that.
What billions going to hamas? Hamas is under an illegal embargo. The billions are going to israel. How do you know hamas uses human shields? Did you see them? Or are youbrepeating what netanyahu told you?

Israel started this fight by attacking hamas allegedly because of the death of the 3 settlers.

And gaza may not have jewish settlements but it is under an illegal embargo which is an act of war
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      07-28-2014, 02:03 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
i do not support the alleged racist chants of the few jewish extremists but i also do not support the unprovoked attacks from the pro hamas supporters targeting jews. it was the pro hamas supporters who started it
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      07-28-2014, 02:09 PM   #49
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What's happening there is no different than what happened here in North America between European migrants and Native Americans.

Fortunately for the migrants, Native Americans didn't have rockets or support from other countries to fight back, so they took over their land with relative ease.

Something like that would never happen today, so lucky for Israel, this happened in the 1940s.

Israel's biggest benefit is that most Americans have no clue how Israel became to be. Most people think Israel was a country that's been there for hundreds of years. If they knew how Israel was really created, Israel would probably have much less US support.
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      07-28-2014, 02:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
What billions going to hamas? Hamas is under an illegal embargo. The billions are going to israel. How do you know hamas uses human shields? Did you see them? Or are youbrepeating what netanyahu told you?

Israel started this fight by attacking hamas allegedly because of the death of the 3 settlers.

And gaza may not have jewish settlements but it is under an illegal embargo which is an act of war
this aid
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...to-gaza-strip/

and this
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2...hamas-run-gaza

and this
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/wa...gaza.html?_r=0

the fact that hamas is using human shields is a fact. hamas's own people even confirmed it. see this link http://www.frontpagemag.com/2012/dgr...human-shields/

the murder of those 3 innocent boys was just the straw that broke the camels back. israel responded only after the rockets were being fired into israel.

after israel pulled out its own people out of gaza in 2005 and before theys et up the blockade in 2007 hamas has used the open borders to commit suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks. hamas cannot be trusted. do you honestly think israel wants to have a blockade on gaza? what benefit do they have other than keeping terrorists out of israel and protecting its citizens?

the pattern is hamas attacks, israel reacts.
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      07-28-2014, 02:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
What is everyones opinion on Israels bombing campaign on Palestine?

So far over 700 palestinians dead. Most of which are civilians. Three times in one week a U.N. medical center has been shelled. The most current one being today. 15 civilians and volunteers killed plus countless more injured. Seriously, what the hell is going on over there?!?!?! Coordinates for U.N. sites are passed to the Israeli government and the military yet they continue to, what it seems like, bomb whoever they want.

Is it just me or is it the media or is this actually whats happening? It seems like Israel is doing nothing to care for the innocent stuck in a hostile area. They refuse to acknowledge U.N. safe zones to evacuate civilians and instead there are reports of Israeli's sitting on a hill overlooking the shelling and cheering it on. What is this a damn movie?!?!?! If the U.S. were carrying on to this extent we would be criticized for the next decade, the president would be impeached and there would be riots!!!!!! Why does it seem acceptable for this to be happening.

Sorry for the rant, I just want to know more about what's going on and listen to some of your opinions on what you think about the current situation. From the information I have gathered, there seems to be a large ethical issue going on.


Helpful or not, here are some Links:

http://www.startribune.com/world/268340182.html

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...pped-civilians

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...elis-hospitals

DISCLAIMER: lets keep this thread clean. I understand that this can be a sensitive issue to many. I have muslim friends and jewish friends who support both sides. I would like for this thread to stay open and to simply listen to some educated and respectful responses.

what i dont understand is how people can claim israel is committing war crimes with casualties at around 1000 in 2 weeks but not claim that ISIS is committing war crimes in syria or iraq with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

is it only a crime if israel is involved?
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      07-28-2014, 02:32 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
What's happening there is no different than what happened here in North America between European migrants and Native Americans.

Fortunately for the migrants, Native Americans didn't have rockets or support from other countries to fight back, so they took over their land with relative ease.

Something like that would never happen today, so lucky for Israel, this happened in the 1940s.

Israel's biggest benefit is that most Americans have no clue how Israel became to be. Most people think Israel was a country that's been there for hundreds of years. If they knew how Israel was really created, Israel would probably have much less US support.
Seriously? This is not at all comparable to Euro migrants and Native Americans. And Americans know VERY well the history of Israel - it's the primary reason that most Americans strongly support Israel.
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      07-28-2014, 02:34 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
What billions going to hamas? Hamas is under an illegal embargo. The billions are going to israel. How do you know hamas uses human shields? Did you see them? Or are youbrepeating what netanyahu told you?

Israel started this fight by attacking hamas allegedly because of the death of the 3 settlers.

And gaza may not have jewish settlements but it is under an illegal embargo which is an act of war
Hamas has plenty of money, largely from the Arab nations that want to crush Israel. An example is Yasir Arafat, who led the PLO in the years preceding Hamas. He died with billions of dollars in his personal accounts.
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      07-28-2014, 02:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Seriously? This is not at all comparable to Euro migrants and Native Americans. And Americans know VERY well the history of Israel - it's the primary reason that most Americans strongly support Israel.
I'm American but dunno anything about the Israel conflict. I don't really understand why the us even needs to be involved.
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      07-28-2014, 03:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
I'm American but dunno anything about the Israel conflict. I don't really understand why the us even needs to be involved.
the us is involve because israel is really the only real democracy in the middle east. israel is seen as an outpost of the us in the area has the same agenda which is really to prevent terrorism in the us and israel. i do agree that the us does not have to send aid to israel, israel does just fine without it but the us sees it as an investment in their security and technology. so many of the things that we rely on everyday where invented or developed in israel.
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      07-28-2014, 03:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
I'm American but dunno anything about the Israel conflict. I don't really understand why the us even needs to be involved.
bcause Jews control the U.S.
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      07-28-2014, 04:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
the us is involve because israel is really the only real democracy in the middle east. israel is seen as an outpost of the us in the area has the same agenda which is really to prevent terrorism in the us and israel. i do agree that the us does not have to send aid to israel, israel does just fine without it but the us sees it as an investment in their security and technology. so many of the things that we rely on everyday where invented or developed in israel.
and why are Palestinians so angry?
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      07-28-2014, 04:30 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
and why are Palestinians so angry?
watch this video. they are taught from a young age that the jews, israel and america are evil and that it is an honor to kill them. they are basically brainwashed. these are the same people who celebrated in the streets after 9/11 and after those 3 innocent israeli boys were kidnapped and murdered. their entire culture celebrates death, its really very sad


Last edited by bkM3; 07-28-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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      07-28-2014, 05:21 PM   #59
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Well, to be fair, they ARE living under apartheid.
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      07-28-2014, 05:42 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
Well, to be fair, they ARE living under apartheid.
that is false. peaceful palestinians living in israel have ALL of the same rights that jews or any other israeli has. they can vote, the women have rights, they hold seats in the knesset (israeli parliament), they can be doctors, scientists, professors in israeli universities,commanders in the IDF, etc, they can even be gay!

the truth is that any arab has more rights in israel than in any arab state
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      07-28-2014, 06:00 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
And Americans know VERY well the history of Israel - it's the primary reason that most Americans strongly support Israel.
Sorry Americans don't know shit.

Here's what they think they know: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to destroy Israel because they're Jewish.

That's pretty much it. Few know the history behind the conflict. They just know they have been fighting for a long time, but most don't really know or understand why, outside of thinking its just Muslims who want to see Jews dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Seriously? This is not at all comparable to Euro migrants and Native Americans.
Then you don't know much about the history between Euro migrants and Native Americans. There are so many obvious similarities I can't imagine why you don't think they're comparable. Unless of course you're saying the Native American situation was much worse, then yes you're right.
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      07-28-2014, 06:41 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
Sorry Americans don't know shit.

Here's what they think they know: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to destroy Israel because they're Jewish.

That's pretty much it. Few know the history behind the conflict. They just know they have been fighting for a long time, but most don't really know or understand why, outside of thinking its just Muslims who want to see Jews dead.
whats the deal with Israel from the other side's view?
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      07-28-2014, 09:03 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
Sorry Americans don't know shit.

Here's what they think they know: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to destroy Israel because they're Jewish.

That's pretty much it. Few know the history behind the conflict. They just know they have been fighting for a long time, but most don't really know or understand why, outside of thinking its just Muslims who want to see Jews dead.



Then you don't know much about the history between Euro migrants and Native Americans. There are so many obvious similarities I can't imagine why you don't think they're comparable. Unless of course you're saying the Native American situation was much worse, then yes you're right.
I think perhaps you feel most Americans wouldn't see the situation as you do? America was founded as a Christian nation, and still has a Christian majority. Christians know the history of the Jews - all the way back 4,000 years, to when Jews and Arabs (now largely Muslims) split - with Abraham's kids. Not sure why you make the blanket assumption that Americans don't know it.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, and they do want to destroy Israel because they are Jewish. Read the Hamas charter - it's all about it.
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      07-28-2014, 09:17 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Wonderful; you found once instance of this happening in Europe. Care to give me some links of where else Jews were rioting in the rest of the EU? Or you can just agree with me that is an overwhelming issue with the pro-Palestinian "youths".

Do not forget the riots in Sweden, Paris and London in recent history. Who were responsible for those?
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      07-28-2014, 09:55 PM   #65
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Sam Harris made a quick, ~15 minute audio essay that touches on this issue -

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/w...iticize-israel

I always try to remain cautiously skeptical but if nothing else his audio essay can play the role of devil's advocate with regards to this thread.
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      07-28-2014, 10:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
America was founded as a Christian nation
The Founding Fathers disagree with you. Strongly.

George Washington - a "Deist" (an obsolete religion fairly close to colonial Unitarianism). Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

Thomas Jefferson - Washington was pretty noncommittal about his religion, Jefferson was not. He wrote a Bible, the "Jefferson Bible", whose chief difference was that it removed all references to the divinity of Christ. "I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Jefferson candidacy for President was strongly opposed by any number of Christian ministers, on the basis of his religious views.

John Adams - A lifelong Unitarian, a religion which holds that God is unitary, as opposed to a trinity. Jesus Christ is seen as a good man, but a man.

Famous Adams quote. "... the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." From the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted by Washington, signed by Adams, and passed unanimously by the Senate. In those days they read what they signed.

Benjamin Franklin - "“My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the Dissenting (Protestant) way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of the Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of the sermons which had been preached at Boyle’s Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them. For the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to be much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

James Madison on the idea that the US was any specific religion at all.

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established."

Thomas Paine may well have been an atheist (although, in those days, that was pretty much unacceptable), or may simply have been opposed to all organized religion - "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.""

The one thing you can take to the bank is that all of the Founding Fathers were bitterly opposed to having a state religion. Bitterly. They'd seen the religious oppression from the state churches in Europe, and wanted none of it. The implication of calling the US a "Christian nation" would have made them retch. The constitution never uses the word Christ, nor references any specific religion, except in the negative. The omission is not accidental. It is true that almost all had some religious beliefs, but many were not Christians, and few if any linked the founding of the nation to any particular religion.

Last edited by 128Convertibleguy; 07-28-2014 at 10:58 PM.
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