American Racing Headers Results

[SSJTrunks523]

Hey guys, long time.

As many of you know, I started about 2 years ago fiddling with exhausts so the community could get some NA header numbers.

Full disclosure: I purchased all exhausts, including the header system, paid for all of the tunes by an unaffiliated tuner at an unaffiliated shop. ARH did install the headers for "free" (it was that or shipped for free) as part of me coming down to visit their facility and tour it. I believe this offer was up to the public during this time.

I think the thread I was on before got deleted, as I can't seem to find it.

I did a journey through Stock to a full ARH system, but my project got sidelined a few times.

Anyways...results!

Dyno 1: Stock car with MS drop in filter on a 93 OCT OTS tune: 325/232wheel

Dyno 2 as all of a sudden dyno 1 wasn't available to the public anymore due to some inner turmoil:

MS Filter, Test Pipes (primary cat DEL only), OEM Mod rear, 93 OCT OTS Tune: 339/264wheel

Same but dyno tune: 354/267 wheel

Full American Racing Headers system (not the triple step) - catless with resonators (I purchased the cats as well) with dyno tune: 389/292 wheel

So I picked up 64/60 over tune only, 50/28 over a TP + OTS and 35/25 over TP + Dyno Tune

Same car, same tires and wheels the whole time. Feel free to ask any questions.

Hope all has been well!

[Doc Oc]

Nice numbers! Quick question, what were the atmospheric conditions of runs 2&3? Assuming they were done on different days.

[SSJTrunks523]

They are adjusted for atmospheric conditions, so it should not matter but here is the weather from the days of the pulls as I just pulled up from Weather Channel. I can ask the tuner for more info if needed.

8/22/17 (day of the 2nd run) was a high of 79*, pull 1 was taken at 10:31am, pull 2 (protune) taken at 4:09pm

4/10/18 (day of header tune) all 3 pulls were taken 10:50-11am - high was 44* F.

I can see if I can get scheduled up for another dyno pull now that it's 80*+ ambient. Though my tuner might shoot me. I'm there every month with SOMETHING lol.

To be noted, when I had the Test Pipe tune, he recommended if I wanted to pick up some power to get the ARH system. I laughed and said I was already on it. He's tuned them before, but again no affiliation. Doesn't sell them or anything.

Doing back to back tunes and exhausts on the same day just wasn't realistic or I would have. At least while still being independent. I could have used ARH's dyno (they offered) and had a tuner brought in, but then I believe this would have been more "suspect" knowing the background here.

[tdott]

Awesome, thanks for documenting this!

Can you reveal who did the dyno tune? I'm sure if anyone goes with this system would be interested.
Did you happen to do any runs with the ARH system without the dyno re-tune?

[SSJTrunks523]

I was trying not to get Tuners involved in the discussion so it didn't turn into a bash-fest/dumpster fire. Feel free to DM and we can talk including anyone else who'd like to know. I just ask that you not post on here because I don't want to get off-topic. The OTS tune was a major company that is known very well. So it wasn't some random backwoods shop that no one has ever heard of and hasn't ever seen a S65 =) I just think a dyno tune with always be better. There was only a small gain in peak tq obviously and a bit more in the higher range to grab that 15hp.

I can ask if the tuner did any pre-tuning runs on the headers. Probably not. I was asked not to go hard on it until it came back in for a re-tune, so I drove from LI (ARH hq) straight to the shop and dropped it off.

[Doc Oc]

Still strong numbers but the temp does make a difference even with correction. For comparison, on a 49 deg day my car made 458 rwhp. Three weeks later on an 89 deg day, same mods and dyno, it made 441. So I think the cool weather may have helped your final numbers, but not by a whole lot. Definitely proves that these things make power!

[Gossypiboma]

Kudos to you for coming through with some actual real world testing.

It would be amazing and provide irrefutable proof if you could get on a Dynojet. The delta is just so large that it seems unbelievable, not that it isn't, but your results are what supercharged cars are seeing.

I'm inclined to think something was off with the original OTS tune, simply because an increase of 50whp is not possible. BW headers and costume tune yielded somewhere around 8-10whp.

Further, the absolute whp number still isn't any greater than other M3's on a mustang dyno.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

Further, the absolute whp number still isn't any greater than other M3's on a mustang dyno.

I beg to differ, it's probably the highest NA s65 dyno I have seen on a mustang dyno.

Those are numbers are close to the highest typically seen on a dynojet, so that alone tells you this is very strong. While having a dynojet plot will show you higher peak numbers, it will not be as useful as the delta between the two mustang dynos provided.

[SSJTrunks523]

I can see if I can run it on a dynojet. RK Tunes asked me to run it on a Dynojet as well.

People seem to be one way or another about dynos (like the Dynojet's read high thing) and I could find Mustangs.

I don't have any other mods besides a drop in filter. I'm thinking I could make more with an intake at this point, am looking into flex, some people say pulleys make power, some say they don't yada yada. I track the car extensively now and it is trailered (3.25* of camber out front). That all said, completely stock I probably would have read 315-320 based on a 93 oct tune and drop in filter putting me at just under 325. I haven't seen many stock cars dyno that low. Now I get into assuming - 315-> 354 = ~40whp which is kind of the area Test Pipes and tune are supposed to give to this platform. So I kind of feel like the deltas are probably pretty accurate.

FWIW in real world data, I entered the bottom of the esses ~100-103 at WGI and ended the back straight at 146.6 as my high for the weekend in May. GPS #s not speedo (read over 160 and once you start changing wheels and tires that goes out the door more than it was stock). I need to compare that to last Oct when I ran and delta on the speeds beginning and end to straights. Just haven't gotten back to the old video yet. Temps were the same, car is still stock weight, I've gained a few lbs lol. I might be going to Pocono to run the big configuration there (3.5mi?) and I might be allowed to do a high speed run. A top speed run (even with the GT4 splitter) might help back up the numbers. Maybe a 190 GPS verified run? Now I'm speculating.

All in all, I'm fine with doing more runs. I had a shop in NY tell me to run it on a dynojet and I offered to run it on their dyno. Didn't hear back yet. This is just really expensive and time consuming as it's just me and a trailer. I've had people already tell me to take the headers off, put the pipes back on, retune with a different person on a dynojet, put them back on, retune again. There's a certain point where I have to draw a line being just a guy trying to help with data for the community out of his own pocket =)

[SSJTrunks523]

Honestly, I'm going to start looking at E85 to keep the engine cooler on the track. Our STIs "need" it to stay healthy and since I'll have it anyways.

Just mentioning that I don't plan on sticking no-modifications besides headers forever. Almost everyone in the realm of power I am in at least adds something else be it intake, fuel, pulleys, and farther up the ladder velocity stacks, cams, etc.

I'm probably staying NA for a while. At least until I get a track E92 M3, which is also in the plan for the next year or two and I'll pull some camber out of this car and use it for nice days and date nights with the wife. 29k miles on it right now.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by tdott

I beg to differ, it's probably the highest NA s65 dyno I have seen on a mustang dyno.

Those are numbers are close to the highest typically seen on a dynojet, so that alone tells you this is very strong. While having a dynojet plot will show you higher peak numbers, it will not be as useful as the delta between the two mustang dynos provided.

In the M3 Dyno database there are other NA cars making 370-380whp on a mustang dyno.


The only reason I say put it on a Dynojet is because it allows easier comparison considering there are plenty of other M3 dynojet plots out there. It would also show if the whp is repeatable.

You have to admit a 50whp delta from headers alone sounds a bit excessive.

[SSJTrunks523]

Eh? I mean it's 35/25 over test pipes. Doesn't sound "magical" to me. Sounds more realistic. If it was 5/2 it might as well be 0.

Basically for me I would never waste the money on test pipes and the OTS tune. I got a full system, incl headers, with more power for double the money (let's assume someone is paying full price for a X pipe and full price for an OTS tune and I'm rounding here).

Is it a value play? No. NA tuning just isn't and I think cutting your own x pipe and putting in test pipes, welding it yourself and getting a local tuner to do the tune with always be the best value. Or buying a used X pipe and dyno tune.

Is it worth it? Depends. Are you stock? Did you already buy an xpipe and tune and now need to repurchase and hope to get money back on the sale of the used part? I mean that's all debatable.

In the mean time I'll try to find a local dynojet and see if someone will let me just do pulls without tuning me. Most guys in the area I asked said no unless they were tuning, which I don't need. Dynojet runs don't seem unreasonable to ask for.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

You have to admit a 50whp delta from headers alone sounds a bit excessive.

I think you missed the part where it was dyno tuned, so while some/most might be the headers+ARH xpipe&exhaust, the tune must also have made some impact.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by tdott

I think you missed the part where it was dyno tuned, so while some/most might be the headers+ARH xpipe&exhaust, the tune must also have made some impact.

Nope, fully understand.

If this car straps down on a Dynojet and crushes a 420whp run, which it should easily do if the delta is correct, I will personally apologize to Nick at ARH. Though, I have a feeling it wont break 400whp. I believe there is another variable at play here.

We also need more details about the runs. Were they all the same gear? If so, which gear?

Here is a list of Dynojet dynos in Connecticut.

http://www.dynojet.com/dynocenters/d...sa_distance=75

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

I can see if I can run it on a dynojet. RK Tunes asked me to run it on a Dynojet as well.

People seem to be one way or another about dynos (like the Dynojet's read high thing) and I could find Mustangs.

I don't have any other mods besides a drop in filter. I'm thinking I could make more with an intake at this point, am looking into flex, some people say pulleys make power, some say they don't yada yada. I track the car extensively now and it is trailered (3.25* of camber out front). That all said, completely stock I probably would have read 315-320 based on a 93 oct tune and drop in filter putting me at just under 325. I haven't seen many stock cars dyno that low. Now I get into assuming - 315-> 354 = ~40whp which is kind of the area Test Pipes and tune are supposed to give to this platform. So I kind of feel like the deltas are probably pretty accurate.

FWIW in real world data, I entered the bottom of the esses ~100-103 at WGI and ended the back straight at 146.6 as my high for the weekend in May. GPS #s not speedo (read over 160 and once you start changing wheels and tires that goes out the door more than it was stock). I need to compare that to last Oct when I ran and delta on the speeds beginning and end to straights. Just haven't gotten back to the old video yet. Temps were the same, car is still stock weight, I've gained a few lbs lol. I might be going to Pocono to run the big configuration there (3.5mi?) and I might be allowed to do a high speed run. A top speed run (even with the GT4 splitter) might help back up the numbers. Maybe a 190 GPS verified run? Now I'm speculating.

All in all, I'm fine with doing more runs. I had a shop in NY tell me to run it on a dynojet and I offered to run it on their dyno. Didn't hear back yet. This is just really expensive and time consuming as it's just me and a trailer. I've had people already tell me to take the headers off, put the pipes back on, retune with a different person on a dynojet, put them back on, retune again. There's a certain point where I have to draw a line being just a guy trying to help with data for the community out of his own pocket =)

do you have a subie too by chance?

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

do you have a subie too by chance?

We have 3 =). Have we met you at an event? My wife tracks whatever STI isn't broken haha

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by BigBoosting

Nope, fully understand.

If this car straps down on a Dynojet and crushes a 420whp run, which it should easily do if the delta is correct, I will personally apologize to Nick at ARH. Though, I have a feeling it wont break 400whp. I believe there is another variable at play here.

We also need more details about the runs. Were they all the same gear? If so, which gear?

Here is a list of Dynojet dynos in Connecticut.

http://www.dynojet.com/dynocenters/d...sa_distance=75

Gear? You mean the car or the dyno?

Car was identical down to which wheel and which tire was on which corner. Obviously the tank of gas changed, but everything had local pump 93 from a top tier supplier.

I'll look into the dynojets. Like I said, most shops wouldn't let me run unless they were tuning me.

As for comparison, we'd need to run another car on the same mustang dyno I ran on followed by the same dynojet I ran on if you are insinuating something was off on the dyno or the operation of the dyno. Whether the car makes 390whp 3 pulls on a dynojet or 425 3 times, it doesn't change the delta if that makes sense. The car could have made poor power to start with. That's why you can't just run a car with headers and another with test pipes on the same dyno and say that is the delta. Each car is going to make a little different stock power. The other person I know who is NA with these headers made 12/7 more wheel than me, but didn't take earlier dynos to compare.

In other words, I might make 390 on a dynojet. And maybe I would have made 315 stock. You can't know the stock number at this point because it was never taken (because everyone said a mustang dyno was what they wanted to see because "they read lower")

So I'm up for looking for a shop to run on a dynojet. It just doesn't change the results if it is a 390 or a 440 if that makes sense

[pbonsalb]

It does. Dynojets are not adjustable load based dynos. There are loads of results to compare to. The NA record in SAE is 403, I think and that is a bit of an outlier. A bunch in the 390-399 range. If you do 410+ SAE that would be a new level of power.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

We have 3 =). Have we met you at an event? My wife tracks whatever STI isn't broken haha

I heard they blow up.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I heard they blow up.

[SSJTrunks523]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

It does. Dynojets are not adjustable load based dynos. There are loads of results to compare to. The NA record in SAE is 403, I think and that is a bit of an outlier. A bunch in the 390-399 range. If you do 410+ SAE that would be a new level of power.

Yeah, but I literally have an exhaust and drop in filter. I'm not a max power example. I did a single adjustment to show a delta, or lack thereof.

Say I put down a 390 range. It doesn't mean there wasn't a delta. It just means I put down 390. Again my motor might have been weaker than average and vice versa. If I put down a 420, I might have had a unicorn (though that does not seem to be the case based on the dyno sheets so far). A 420 by itself wouldn't mean anything without the baseline to show it wasn't 418 with test pipes before the headers.

I'm not saying I won't do it. Just saying it doesn't really have a lot of bearing on whether the headers made power or not.

Personally I would love to see my numbers and even more excited to see if an intake or e85, etc could give me a few more. I've been focused on road course set up and brakes for the last while

[M3 Number 86]

Wow this is on a mustang dyno??