Tread splice info and the Nitto issue

[DallasBoosted]

So has anyone even heard a story of the tread delaminating other than bigjae who did it when he hit a curb? I've got 2 that are spliced now (my info is in the chart) and wondering if I should even be thinking about it at all.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by DallasBoosted

So has anyone even heard a story of the tread delaminating other than bigjae who did it when he hit a curb? I've got 2 that are spliced now (my info is in the chart) and wondering if I should even be thinking about it at all.

That's what this whole thread is about. I didn't hit any curbs and 4 of my 5 did it, including the replacement tire.

[DallasBoosted]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

That's what this whole thread is about. I didn't hit any curbs and 4 of my 5 did it, including the replacement tire.

I'm not talking about the splicing which is cosmetic but harmless, I'm talking about the tread actually separating from the tire.

[w00tw00t]

my second nt01 also showed a splice but I was like WTFU and just kept driving on it... now the splice is just a fine line.. about to disappear so I'll just keep driving on it ..

[w00tw00t]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

Just finished two-day event with the new Toyo Proxes RR. So far, so good. Mounted them using Toyo's recommended orientation to avoid the tread splice opening up, and rotated them diagonally for day two. 10 heat cycles and looking good. Stickier than the Nitto NT01s, and less noisy, but they still chirp/squeal a bit as you approach the limit.

any specific reason why you didn't get the BFG R1 instead? tread and profile seems very similar ..

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by DallasBoosted

I'm not talking about the splicing which is cosmetic but harmless, I'm talking about the tread actually separating from the tire.

Got it sorry. Mine never got worse just faded with tire wear like W00TW00Ts.

[paradocs98]

Originally Posted by w00tw00t

any specific reason why you didn't get the BFG R1 instead? tread and profile seems very similar ..

Thought about trying the BFG R1 for a while now, but was a bit worried about reviews I read in which people complained about sudden breakaway characteristics. I wasn't sure if this was particular to the R1, or common among all DOT near-slicks. In any case, the Proxes RR just came out several months ago and intrigued me--it's been getting good reviews so far, and it's the new spec tire for Spec Miata, Spec E30, and ?Spec 944, so I figured it was worth a try.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

Thought about trying the BFG R1 for a while now, but was a bit worried about reviews I read in which people complained about sudden breakaway characteristics. I wasn't sure if this was particular to the R1, or common among all DOT near-slicks. In any case, the Proxes RR just came out several months ago and intrigued me--it's been getting good reviews so far, and it's the new spec tire for Spec Miata, Spec E30, and ?Spec 944, so I figured it was worth a try.

Thought you had a good deal of track time. That being the case I wouldn't shy away from an r-comp because of breakaway. That's the nature of the any higher level tire. It has higher limits but a narrower range of useable lateral grip. Just means being aware, smoothness will be rewarded more but unless your jerking the car around it will be relatively easy for you and feel is good so you know what's happeneing and can still catch it.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by paradocs98

Thought about trying the BFG R1 for a while now, but was a bit worried about reviews I read in which people complained about sudden breakaway characteristics. I wasn't sure if this was particular to the R1, or common among all DOT near-slicks. In any case, the Proxes RR just came out several months ago and intrigued me--it's been getting good reviews so far, and it's the new spec tire for Spec Miata, Spec E30, and ?Spec 944, so I figured it was worth a try.

There are a lot of variables like tire pressure and car setup. R-Comps and slicks can handle more slip angle but they fall off faster when you go beyond the max slip angle the tire can take. The biggest difference is an R-Comp is still dead silent at a certain point where a street tire is howling in pain. There's no audible clue that the tires are approaching their optimum slip angle, you have to feel it.

Also keep in mind the longer you stay near that optimum slip angle point the faster you heat cycle the tires out. So after a couple of sessions you might end up with a set of R-Comps that have a ton of tread left but handle like crap. You must manage the tires or have really deep pockets. Some tires will have more heat cycles in them. A good break in procedure will add life as well.

Except for the NT01s. They don't seem to heat cycle out.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Except for the NT01s. They don't seem to heat cycle out.

this. thats why i will take this tire splice or not. i dont have deep enough pockets to run thru tires and dont need an extra second at that steep of a cost. pyrrich victory.

[CSBM5]

One of the big attractions of the NT-01 is that they are streetable (as long as you can put up with the truck tire like howling). I've driven them 250+ miles each way to events in the past.

The BFG R1 is definitely a higher performing tire. I have a lot of experience with those on both the M5 and my daughter's E46 over the years. However, it's not really streetable imo. It's tougher than a Hoosier for sure (which would be a disaster on the street), but it's more of a race tire compared to the NT-01. Of course it starts out as basically a slick, so on wet roads the NT-01 would be vastly better. Speaking of which, years ago on I-85 coming back from the Performance Center with the NT-01s on, we got caught in a horrific storm which spawned tornadoes nearby. It was raining so hard all traffic was going about 25mph. I just took it real easy and had no issues with near new NT-01s. That same experience with an R1 would have been dangerous.

I don't find the R1 *that* big of a "breakaway off the peak" tire as some here. I found the R1 to be very communicative and easy to manage near the limits. It doesn't speak to you like the NT-01 at all, but it does some higher frequency squeaking at times, but the feel through the wheel/seat is of high enough quality that I've never had an issue with them. Then again, I've been doing this stuff for 4 decades, so I guess I should be more careful with recommendations.

If you have to run NT-01s, if the tread splice opens up, try to put that tire on the other side of the car for a while. Keep an eye on it. So far it appears we've not heard of anything catastrophic occurring...just disconcerting. Nitto should get in front of this issue, pronto.

[ThunderMoose]

@bigjae - I interpreted the graph that I saw the other day at TDE to indicate that r-comps and slicks actually handle less slip angle (than street tires). I assume because sidewall is much stiffer. They can handle much more Gs obviously, but adhesion drops off quickly as you state.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

bigjae - I interpreted the graph that I saw the other day at TDE to indicate that r-comps and slicks actually handle less slip angle (than street tires). I assume because sidewall is much stiffer. They can handle much more Gs obviously, but adhesion drops off quickly as you state.

There are many more elements that have a greater impact on slip angle than sidewall stiffness.

Slip angle by definition is the angle between the tire direction of travel versus the direction in which the tire is pointing. All tires, to generate lateral grip, have an inherent amount of slip. Thread compound, thread pattern (size of the thread blocks) and thread depth have the greatest impact on the slip angle/lateral load relationship.

R-comps have less slip angle for a given lateral load than street tires because their compound is much stickier, they usually have much less thread depth and ususally have very large thread blocks (or none at all ).

[1MOREMOD]

i like splice!

[ThunderMoose]

@canautm3 - I agree that the variables you describe influence slip angle, but my point remains that r comps and slicks have less max available slip angle than typical street tires not no so much because they have more grip but because they deform less.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

@1moremod - You seem to be explaining grip rather than slip angle. R comps (and slicks) have more grip for a given lateral load because of the stickier compound and the larger contact patch.

Slip angle is different than grip though the amount of slip angle will be affected by the "deformability" of the tire and the amount if grip. So while r comps have more grip they have less slip angle because they cannot deform as much. Our TDE instructor had great presentation on this subject which I'll try to get and post.

Here's a good discussion in the interim:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=439047

yes you are right. but it is actually both. a street tire has a lower total co. of friction but operates close to max over a wider slip angle. a track tire has a higher overall co of friction and its max widow for slip angle is narrower. it ramps up quickly and also falls off more quickly as well. just remembering graph from speed secrets and tune to win.

[w00tw00t]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

yes you are right. but it is actually both. a street tire has a lower total co. of friction but operates close to max over a wider slip angle. a track tire has a higher overall co of friction and its max widow for slip angle is narrower. it ramps up quickly and also falls off more quickly as well. just remembering graph from speed secrets and tune to win.

Nerd Alert!

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by w00tw00t

Nerd Alert!

Haha thanks dude!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

@canautm3 - You seem to be explaining grip rather than slip angle. R comps (and slicks) have more grip for a given lateral load because of the stickier compound and the larger contact patch.

Slip angle is different than grip though the amount of slip angle will be affected by the "deformability" of the tire and the amount if grip. So while r comps have more grip they have less slip angle because they cannot deform as much. Our TDE instructor had great presentation on this subject which I'll try to get and post.

Here's a good discussion in the interim:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=439047

You are correct, looking back at my literature, side wall stiffness does have significant influence on the lateral load vs slip angle relationship. But so do the other parameters I mentioned .

[bigjae1976]

Generally speaking, R-Comps and slicks will provide peak grip a higher slip angles BUT that peak has a more narrow window than a street tire.

A street tire will peak with less slip angle but will have a wider optimum range.

Where do R-Comps and slicks get their 1-2 second per lap/mile advantage from? You carry more speed with more weight transfer creating more slip angle. An R-Comp will provide grip, a street tire will start to fall off and slide. All assuming that you haven't changed the car in any other way.

If you had less slip angle with R-Comps you'd be going slower.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Generally speaking, R-Comps and slicks will provide peak grip a higher slip angles BUT that peak has a more narrow window than a street tire.

A street tire will peak with less slip angle but will have a wider optimum range.

Where do R-Comps and slicks get their 1-2 second per lap/mile advantage from? You carry more speed with more weight transfer creating more slip angle. An R-Comp will provide grip, a street tire will start to fall off and slide. All assuming that you haven't changed the car in any other way.

If you had less slip angle with R-Comps you'd be going slower.

Isn't that what I said!

[ThunderMoose]

I think we're in violent agreement on the subject of grip and slip angle.