VANOS solenoid causing other codes

[bvrider1]

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[deansbimmer]

Which bank did you you check timing on? Bank one is checked on overlap TDC. I've seen several incorrectly timed S65's based off of that single "gotcha". The timing blocks must drop onto the cam flats and sit flush against the head- the max permissible gap between the head and the high side of the cam blocks is 1mm.

Digging deeper: Why was the engine rebuilt? I saw you replaced the VANOS bolts but were the VANOS adjusters themselves reused?

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Which bank did you you check timing on? Bank two is checked on overlap TDC. I've seen several incorrectly timed S65's based off of that single "gotcha". The timing blocks must drop onto the cam flats and sit flush against the head- the max permissible gap between the head and the high side of the cam blocks is 1mm.

Digging deeper: Why was the engine rebuilt? I saw you replaced the VANOS bolts but were the VANOS adjusters themselves reused?

I checked bank 2 (right side when looking at the engine from the front of the car, which I believe is bank 2?).. I rotated the crank to OT, made sure the numbers on the cams were showing, then just slipped the tools on - the tools sat completely flush, no gap. I set it up as per the workshop manual which says to just rotate to OT and make sure the numbers on the cams are facing up. Am I actually supposed to check timing with the numbers not showing??

As for why it was rebuilt, the engine blew up due to rod bearings... A completely different engine was sourced for the rebuild. The bottom end was built entirely by Carbahn (formerly Dinan). The heads were cleaned and assembled by Carbahn also. I installed the heads and timed it myself. The VANOS gears I believe came from the new engine, but to be honest, I had 3 sets of everything, so I'm not 100% which engine the gears came from.

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

It sounds like you did that bank correctly. These are the directions which must be followed precisely.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...mshaft/OePfn3n

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

It sounds like you did that bank correctly. These are the directions which must be followed precisely.

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...mshaft/OePfn3n

Yep, that's just how I did it.

In an effort to work out additional troubleshooting, if I electrically disconnect a solenoid, would the VANOS timing be at "minimum" or "maximum"? I'm thinking if I can force the engine in to a state that, mechanically, it should be at a specific point (i.e. full advance or full retard), then check what INPA/ISTA is showing for real time timing on that cam. Maybe that will indicate if the DME itself is at fault. I also have my oscilloscope, but without reference values, not sure it's much use.

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

So I found my spare VANOS actuators (I actually have 4 x intake and 3 x exhaust - can't find my 4th spare exhaust one, but I'm sure I have it somewhere). Is there any way to categorically test/check/clean them without putting them on? Not sure if BMW have a check process. Can't find my spare solenoids right now (I should have at least 2 intake and 2 exhaust ones in my spares), but will look for them too.

I plan on ultrasonically cleaning them, then test them on Bank 2 with new seals.

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by romemmy

So I found my spare VANOS actuators (I actually have 4 x intake and 3 x exhaust - can't find my 4th spare exhaust one, but I'm sure I have it somewhere). Is there any way to categorically test/check/clean them without putting them on? Not sure if BMW have a check process. Can't find my spare solenoids right now (I should have at least 2 intake and 2 exhaust ones in my spares), but will look for them too.

I plan on ultrasonically cleaning them, then test them on Bank 2 with new seals.

Thanks!

S.

There is no BMW check process documented for mechanical assessment of these VANOS units. They do expressly state do not disassemble. However, we have successfully disassembled and reassembled them. (A tech post documenting it has been on my to-do list).

I do not recommend cleaning them ultrasonically without any further action. You need a way to physically remove (flush) any debris from the adjusters and an ultrasonic would only dislodge them and even that's not guaranteed. There's no way to flush out any dislodged debris. Swarf collects between the rotor blades and becomes pressed into the surfaces until it impedes rotor movement. I've also seen the internal check valves break and jam the internals. The only way to verify their condition is to carefully disassemble them.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

There is no BMW check process documented for mechanical assessment of these VANOS units. They do expressly state do not disassemble. However, we have successfully disassembled and reassembled them. (A tech post documenting it has been on my to-do list).

I do not recommend cleaning them ultrasonically without any further action. You need a way to physically remove (flush) any debris from the adjusters and an ultrasonic would only dislodge them and even that's not guaranteed. There's no way to flush out any dislodged debris. Swarf collects between the rotor blades and becomes pressed into the surfaces until it impedes rotor movement. I've also seen the internal check valves break and jam the internals. The only way to verify their condition is to carefully disassemble them.

Thanks dean. Is the process difficult (i.e. need to drill out fasteners or something), or pretty straightforward? I'm happy to disassemble them. The exhaust unit is spring loaded, and I've not "released" it to see how far back it springs.. I guess I have enough spares to try it out on one exhaust and one intake unit though!

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Its not hard, just carefully noting positions of parts and locations. Just need to pry off the plastic cover without breaking it, and the hardest part is reloading the return spring back on. It requires good force to retension.

[romemmy]

I took the mechanism apart on one of the gears... it’s a pretty simple design. I’m completely at a loss as to how BMW charge $1300 for one of these at the dealer (cheapest online is still around $800)!


image upload

dean - my only concern really is the torque on the bolts when putting them back in. They were pretty easy to get off so I don’t think much - but do you have a tested torque value you use when doing this?

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

Also, I found putting the spring back on easy if you don’t locate the spring loaded button, but have it fully rotated clockwise. Then you can put the spring on by hand (needs a little force, but pretty easy). Then once you have it on, you can clamp it and rotate the center piece with respect to the outer gear anti-clockwise until it clicks, tensioning the spring.

Right now I’m stuck because I don’t have that darn replacement O-ring - BMW didn’t have any in stock in the entire Bay Area yesterday, so at a halt until then..

I took a bunch of pics so will put something together when done. I haven’t taken apart the other one yet though, so will do that maybe today.

Thanks!

S.

[peter de la mare]

Keep up the good work S. May be using your experience to fix my own issue.

[peter de la mare]

Any update on this one S.?

[romemmy]

Okay, engine back together (I just did bank 2), replaced all the seals on the adjusters, and nothing really changed!

I'm thinking it must be an electrical issue at this point. Taking the adjusters off, replacing seals, new center bolts, etc, that the readings would at least change a little if it were mechanical timing issues.. but nothing.

I'm thinking I could change the solenoids, but I'm really skeptical since all 4 are having the same issues.

Anyway, I think I'll reflash the ECU first - maybe it got corrupted.

Thanks!

S.

[romemmy]

So I just reflashed the ECU, and even just tried a different set of hall sensors too - no change in readings.

Next I’m going get some new solenoids for one bank and see what happens. I wish I could test for oil pressure at the solenoid - I’m still thinking it’s something common, maybe affecting global oil pressure or maybe a common ground issue or something.

Thanks!

S.

[peter de la mare]

This is bizarre, well done for persevering.

[romemmy]

AARRrrrrgggg... Replaced both solenoids (inlet and exhaust) on bank 2 - not a blind bit of difference!! $650 for those two from BMW, and I may as well have burned the money.

ECU maybe? I need to figure out the VANOS signals... Maybe some kind of common grounding issue..

Thanks,

S.

[romemmy]

One thing I'm still a little puzzled about is how INPA reports "!0.0" for some of the angle tests. I'm not sure how a test result can be "!0.0" when the engine is obviously running just fine. Even if it's not in target spec, it should still have a value shouldn't it??

Thanks!

S.

[peter de la mare]

I’m also getting weird test results, I’m not actually doing these tests but the tech who is says he’s a bit baffled, but also mentioned ECU. I’ll ask him for details and feed back.

[romemmy]

Originally Posted by peter de la mare

I’m also getting weird test results, I’m not actually doing these tests but the tech who is says he’s a bit baffled, but also mentioned ECU. I’ll ask him for details and feed back.

Yeah, I'm gonna see if I can source a used ECU and try that next. I wish there was an easier way to specifically point to vanos issues on this engine.

[romemmy]

So I did another test.. This time with all the solenoids disconnected. So now it has no way of moving the cams, so they should all be at default values (see below). The weird thing here is that the intake cams are showing the same value for max and min, which makes sense. The exhaust cams however show a value for max, but again !0.0 for min. Not sure why they wouldn't show a min value (which should just be equal to max).

Does anyone have a screenshot of INPA running VANOS tests on a good vehicle? Even more useful would be a screenshot showing the tests with solenoids disconnected.

Thanks!

S.

[deansbimmer]

Have you replaced the engine harness? Strange issues like this can often be traced back to wiring especially on engines that have been removed and installed several times.

jcolley