Won ebay auction at 60K for E90 M3, BMW of Lincoln refusing to honor

ivanlo · 03-24-2008, 12:26 PM

i'm ivanlo, admin of motorio.us automotive forums and signed up here to support dooma350.

let's make an example of this dealer (but not through harassment)

Soterik · 03-24-2008, 12:28 PM

Just joined,

Though I didn't have time to read all the pages....if you haven't been told, you have also made it to one of the largest Porsche board as well (Pelican). We are all multiple car owners, and I can't imagine anyone who has read this thread that would actually go to this dealership group and buy a car now...

I'm in your corner...they should cave on the bad publicity alone, not to mention the legal issues!

Note that when I registered and went to the main forums page, I noted that there are the usual range of people subscribed to threads...technical is highest (as would typically be so on a car board) at 168 people.... but this thread alone has OVER 2300 people watching right now!!

Amazing what the internet can do...

Good luck!

Eric

JoeClothing · 03-24-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stlmini

This could be precedent setting. We’ve heard from a lot of lawyers and other professionals. It seems to me there is not a clear decision as to what LEGALLY should happen. Logically and emotionally, it's very clear.

eBay should be very interested in how this turns out and should hope for the seller to prevail. If you cannot be sure that when you win an auction on eBay that you actually going to get the item then there goes eBay's credibility.

Someone in an earlier post said eBay would side with the seller on this because they are paying the bill but I disagree. eBay is nothing without sellers AND buyers.

Absolutely correct. There is a lot of press in this for Ebay, and if anything they are rooting for you Dooma. Anything less than you getting this car for your bid price means negative press for them.
As of late Ebay has been very concerned with a lack of repeat buyers on their site which is the reason for their newly structured feedback system...the same system that was boycotted last month and a national worldwide story.
Essentially Ebay's researchers have noticed that many buyers would end up having a negative experience on their site and as a result would not return. They are doing their best to change how people perceive their site. You not getting your car, would only confirm that their site is still not as well protected from these types of activities as they would like people to think.

Illan · 03-24-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timsev

mind if i join you, i brought some soda

Doesn't Drive · 03-24-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tivs31

I gotta say that through all this I think the reason we are all so behind you is because of everyone's emotions towards dealerships. I think everyone has A. either been scammed or tried to be scammed by a dealership or B. personally know someone that has been scammed or tried to be scammed. ...Or just simply by wishing you the best dooma.

G

Actually, I couldn't care less what the actual object was the auction was about. Car, bar of soap, whatever.

I happen to care because the OP won an auction fair and square and the seller refuses to hold up their end of the deal. And that annoys me.

JoeClothing · 03-24-2008, 12:36 PM

^

Good point Soterik....who in the world would buy a car from these guys now?! I know I wouldn't.....

PhaseShift · 03-24-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlpruk

After many years running my own public relations consultancy, until I retired, may I just say

Thank you-
Maybe I oversimplify things, but when it comes to handling mistakes, my experience is that owning up to them right away puts you in a position to at least explain your actions and at the very least, beg for mercy if you really have to.

FYI- I got this off the local drag racing forum in Guam where I spend my free time. I have also e-mailed links to friends in China, Malaysia, Philippines and Australia. http://www.dragguam.com/dragboard/ And I believe I saw a reference to this on the LS1 forums as well. After seeing posts from folks all over the world – Asia to Europe and all points in between, there is one thing I would like to give kudos to- All the car owners and rivals out there simply putting aside differences to pull for the common Joe. That has a pretty high coolness factor to me.

Phil

I am post # 666 but I hope the heartwarming post sort of EQ's that devil stuff out of the deal.

Los Angeles · 03-24-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JThw8

Another supporter checking in.

And Dooma, someone briefly hit on it a few pages back but just to emphasize.

If you really intend to pursue this you need to send the deposit money, either via paypal or certified check. Their terms in the auction specifically state that if the deposit is not paid in 7 days then the contract is voided. If you attempt to pay and they do not accept the payment at least you have fulfilled your side of the agreement and it gives you more leverage should this drag on past the 7 days (which I fear it will)

Very good point!!

Big Windy · 03-24-2008, 12:41 PM

this thread is impossible to keep up with but is just awesome. i can't believe there have been over 214,000 views. Still no sticky? haha. I really hope that this goes somewhere and that BMW dealership gets screwed as they should.

dgb2 · 03-24-2008, 12:41 PM

I'm just curious to see how many "Nebraskans" that are in the market for a BMW in the next several years would no longer consider purchasing from Husker if they don't do the right thing?
I'm very curious to get some idea of the amount of business they may lose as a result of how they handle this "mistake".

bimmer213 · 03-24-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JThw8

Another supporter checking in.

And Dooma, someone briefly hit on it a few pages back but just to emphasize.

If you really intend to pursue this you need to send the deposit money, either via paypal or certified check. Their terms in the auction specifically state that if the deposit is not paid in 7 days then the contract is voided. If you attempt to pay and they do not accept the payment at least you have fulfilled your side of the agreement and it gives you more leverage should this drag on past the 7 days (which I fear it will)

Best of luck to you, stick to your guns, you are in the right here and dealerships like this cannot continue to be allowed to get away with these antics.

This is a very good post.

However you did get something wrong, the terms on the listing states that they require a $1000-$5000 deposit within 24 hours of the auction ending. The 7 days is given to complete the entire transaction, not just a deposit.

The 24 hour window to send them a deposit is already over. And you're obviously not going to send them the full payment by the end of the 7 days. I don't know how these terms will actually hold up considering the circumstances.

UltimateBMW · 03-24-2008, 12:46 PM

+1 for supporting Dooma.

Since this thread has become very active and simply HUGE, maybe it would be a good idea to update the OP with the current state of things Dooma?

Brookzors · 03-24-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb2

I'm just curious to see how many "Nebraskans" that are in the market for a BMW in the next several years would no longer consider purchasing from Husker if they don't do the right thing?

It depends how much of this makes the news. It's not that hard to take a short drive right over to Omaha and buy a BMW for us Nebraskans.

eclipsisNA · 03-24-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmer213

This is a very good post.

However you did get something wrong, the terms on the listing states that they require a $1000-$5000 deposit within 24 hours of the auction ending. The 7 days is given to complete the entire transaction, not just a deposit.

The 24 hour window to send them a deposit is already over. And you're obviously not going to send them the full payment by the end of the 7 days. I don't know how these terms will actually hold up considering the circumstances.

It shouldn't be an issue being the dealership tried to cancel the entire deal and thus dooma would have no reason to send a deposit.

dgb2 · 03-24-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bimmer213

This is a very good post.

Unfortunately, the terms on the listing states that they require a $1000-$5000 deposit within 24 hours of the auction ending. Also stating the entire transaction must be completed within 7 days of the auctions end.

The 24 hour window to send them a deposit is already over. And you're obviously not going to send them the full payment by the end of the 7 days. I don't know how these terms will actually hold up considering the circumstances.

I would love to hear what the practicing attorneys that previously commented in this thread would have to say about that.

It's been a few years since I was in my Business Law course, but I believe that when the dealership called Dooma 15 minutes after the auction stating they would not sell him the car they broke the contract at that moment. That would mean that Dooma doesn't need to worry about a down payment in 24hrs or even full payment in 7 days at this point as there is no contract in existence at the moment. The issue at hand is that the dealer backed out of the contract illegally and must reissue the same offer, at which point I believe the 24hrs/ full payment in 7 days conditions would come back into effect.

bimmer213 · 03-24-2008, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron21

I just discovered something very interesting.. possible shill bidding!

Check out the bid histories for these auctions :

BMW : M3

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230223241488

BMW : M3

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230211917973

BMW : 5-Series

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230216844258

Pontiac : GTO

http://offer.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/...m=230205212482

Specifically look at the "r***c" bidder. He bid on the GTO and the M3 auctions.

Then we have that "5***i" guy who bid on all 3 BMW auctions...

Look suspicious to me.

The above post needs to get a lot more attention. Dooma350, you should really bring this point up to whoever you speak with about this. It will definitely give you a much stronger case and bring up even more illegalities the dealership has been doing in their auctions. With this, and on top of the fact that we know they edited the auction you won 3 times before it ended, i'd like to see the dealership use the "we made a simple mistake" argument.

nyc3 · 03-24-2008, 12:54 PM

I have sent several emails to Local ne news outlets I suggest you all do the same. Anything we can do to support the OP.

freediverdude · 03-24-2008, 12:59 PM

I wasn't going to register and post anything, since I'm not a luxury car owner, but I have been following this since it was about 2 pages, and have read everything. And I had an idea. You know what would be really great way to end all this, especially given the PR hits that the dealership and eBay are taking?

What if we organized a fund for paying for the difference between the msrp and the auction price, and organized a party at the dealership. AND, what if we invited the CEO of BMW NA, and Meg Whitman of eBay(is she still there or gone already), to come and speak on behalf of their companies, and to reassure everyone that they will take steps to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

Could you imagine? I bet the donations would pour in (even possibly from the companies themselves), so much so the OP might not even have to pay for his car, the dealership would get their money, the publicity would be unbelievable and positive, talk about a win for everyone. Is this a good idea?

PhaseShift · 03-24-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freediverdude

I wasn't going to register and post anything, since I'm not a luxury car owner, but I have been following this since it was about 2 pages, and have read everything. And I had an idea. You know what would be really great way to end all this, especially given the PR hits that the dealership and eBay are taking?

What if we organized a fund for paying for the difference between the msrp and the auction price, and organized a party at the dealership. AND, what if we invited the CEO of BMW NA, and Meg Whitman of eBay(is she still there or gone already), to come and speak on behalf of their companies, and to reassure everyone that they will take steps to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

Could you imagine? I bet the donations would pour in (even possibly from the companies themselves), so much so the OP might not even have to pay for his car, the dealership would get their money, the publicity would be unbelievable and positive, talk about a win for everyone. Is this a good idea?

I see your point and it is a cool concept, but I could not personally justify supporting the dealer in any way. Seems to me that sends the wrong message here if the dealer ends up getting out of the price they contracted to.

My support lies with '350

walker77 · 03-24-2008, 01:06 PM

Dooma, you've gotten a lot of great advice here. I've always believed one of the best ways to attack a situation like this is to show 'Husker Auto Group' how expensive welching on your auction can really become.

I think I speak for most everyone here when I say I'm willing to take a few minutes to make bidders on Husker's other auctions aware of how Husker does business...

Herms · 03-24-2008, 01:09 PM

Sounds like you have a good case. Be persistent - they're probably just trying to scare you off because the sad fact is that legal fees are often a deterrent for people (would you rather go through the trouble and spend the same $ or just get the car elsewhere now for the same amt? - they hope the latter).

I'm not familiar with rules for contract formation as they relate to sites like Ebay. Assuming their auction consitutes an offer and you're bid acceptance of that offer such that a valid contract was formed, you're in pretty good shape and should either be able to (a) get damages in the amout you pay for the car less the price you should have bought it from them), or (b) specific performance of their obligation to sell you the car.

Doubtful that they have any defense to this. If it's a unilateral mistake on their part, the only real defense would be that it was an obvious mistake and any reasonable person would have realized it (basically, if the error had been egregious, say they offered it for $1000, then the law won't protect you if you were just trying to take advantage of an obvious mistake). This defense likely wouldn't apply in this situation.

As others have mentioned, go through the BBB, BMW, and Ebay and see what happens. If it doesn't help, consult a lawyer (don't rely on the lawyers on this site as obviously these are just thoughts and impressions and not intended to be legal service).

JudgeHolden · 03-24-2008, 01:10 PM

Ok, I apologize if any of this is a rehash, I've only made it to page 25 or so, but:

1) I am a lawyer. Not your lawyer. None of this is legal advice. I am not telling you what to do, yadda yadda yadda (that's legal speak.) I do not even deal with this kind of law. Hell, 5 months from now I will not deal with any kind of law.

2) I posted on bimmer.org about 8-10 years ago. So hello to any refugees from there. It was fun going through all the e46 mule spotting way back when.

I don't see how morals fit into this, although certain people bring them up. I'd say it looks like the following occured:
1) Dealer puts M3 on ebay. Dealer hopes it will get bids from across the nation. Dealer is thinking this will net them a huge profit.
2) Dealer starts auction well below invoice to attract more attention.
3) Dealer screws up. Despite ebay saying, many times, to note the difference between "buy it now" and "reserve," some nitwit screws up. Instead of putting a reserve at their invoice, they do a buy-it-now.
4) They never cancel auction.
5) Doomer bids. Doomer wins. Doomer is happy.
6) Nitwit's boss is not happy. The bid is under the invoice. Dealer stands to lose a few thousand dollars on this.
7) Dealer stands to also lose significantly more in a lost-sale, as the M3 likely would have gone for at least $10k above this price.

Seems like an decent estimate of the facts to me.

Now earlier someone mentioned that this was a unilateral mistake. This is likely true. However, their analysis of a unilateral mistake was wrong. C'mon, even google will tell you what the legal difference between unilateral and bilateral.

So the question might be did the OP have reason to know it was a mistake. One one hand, arguably, as the BIN was ridiculously low. On the other hand, the auction did brag about being ridiculously low. It could go either way. The thing is, the BIN was reasonable. I'll let you draw your conclusions.

Lastly, this is nothing like getting too much change back. Nor is it like a contract bid, which has laws specifically written for those unique circumstances.
This is a dealer hoping to get rich. This is a dealer hoping to put this M3 on ebay and have people in California and people in Massachusetts starting a bidding war and paying far more over the sticker than people in Lincoln, NE would. The dealer screwed up in a way that isn't wholly obvious to the buyer, and in a way they should have noticed and cancelled the auction when they had the chance.
The dealer gambled that the car would fetch a huge amount of money, and it didn't. The gamble did not pay off. The dealer could have hedged this gamble by using a reserve, or by starting the bidding at the lowest they'd be willing to sell.
The dealer didn't. Likely half out of greed and half out of pure stupidity.

Should the law protect you from being too greedy? No.
Should the law protect you from being stupid? Arguably, but in this case, where it was a car dealer that had done ebay auctions before? It would be hard to convince me that they needed protection from their own idiocy.

Again, just a brief analysis. No legal advice, in fact I've tried hard to make no conclusory statements here. This is for discussion only. Solely that, nothing else.

03-24-2008, 12:26 PM	#639
ivanlo Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: 98 Honda Civic Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	i'm ivanlo, admin of motorio.us automotive forums and signed up here to support dooma350. let's make an example of this dealer (but not through harassment)
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:28 PM	#640
Soterik Registered 0 Rep 2 Posts Drives: 1967 911S Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Seattle, WA iTrader: (0)	Just joined, Though I didn't have time to read all the pages....if you haven't been told, you have also made it to one of the largest Porsche board as well (Pelican). We are all multiple car owners, and I can't imagine anyone who has read this thread that would actually go to this dealership group and buy a car now... I'm in your corner...they should cave on the bad publicity alone, not to mention the legal issues! Note that when I registered and went to the main forums page, I noted that there are the usual range of people subscribed to threads...technical is highest (as would typically be so on a car board) at 168 people.... but this thread alone has OVER 2300 people watching right now!! Amazing what the internet can do... Good luck! Eric
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:36 PM	#644
JoeClothing Second Lieutenant 63 Rep 233 Posts Drives: E60 M5 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Chevy Chase, MD iTrader: (0)	^ Good point Soterik....who in the world would buy a car from these guys now?! I know I wouldn't.....
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03-24-2008, 12:41 PM	#647
Big Windy Major General 152 Rep 5,124 Posts Drives: None Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Bay Area iTrader: (0)	this thread is impossible to keep up with but is just awesome. i can't believe there have been over 214,000 views. Still no sticky? haha. I really hope that this goes somewhere and that BMW dealership gets screwed as they should.
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03-24-2008, 12:41 PM	#648
dgb2 New Member 0 Rep 15 Posts Drives: GLI Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Rextron 52 iTrader: (0)	I'm just curious to see how many "Nebraskans" that are in the market for a BMW in the next several years would no longer consider purchasing from Husker if they don't do the right thing? I'm very curious to get some idea of the amount of business they may lose as a result of how they handle this "mistake".
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:46 PM	#650
UltimateBMW Brigadier General 401 Rep 3,288 Posts Drives: MP4 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: South iTrader: (0)	+1 for supporting Dooma. Since this thread has become very active and simply HUGE, maybe it would be a good idea to update the OP with the current state of things Dooma? __________________
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03-24-2008, 12:54 PM	#655
nyc3 Registered 0 Rep 4 Posts Drives: Top Secret Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: nyc iTrader: (0)	I have sent several emails to Local ne news outlets I suggest you all do the same. Anything we can do to support the OP.
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 12:59 PM	#656
freediverdude New Member 0 Rep 5 Posts Drives: Mazda3 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Lutz, Florida iTrader: (0)	I wasn't going to register and post anything, since I'm not a luxury car owner, but I have been following this since it was about 2 pages, and have read everything. And I had an idea. You know what would be really great way to end all this, especially given the PR hits that the dealership and eBay are taking? What if we organized a fund for paying for the difference between the msrp and the auction price, and organized a party at the dealership. AND, what if we invited the CEO of BMW NA, and Meg Whitman of eBay(is she still there or gone already), to come and speak on behalf of their companies, and to reassure everyone that they will take steps to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Could you imagine? I bet the donations would pour in (even possibly from the companies themselves), so much so the OP might not even have to pay for his car, the dealership would get their money, the publicity would be unbelievable and positive, talk about a win for everyone. Is this a good idea?
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 01:06 PM	#658
walker77 Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: 2007 M5 - Manual Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Baltimore, MD iTrader: (0)	Public Pressure Dooma, you've gotten a lot of great advice here. I've always believed one of the best ways to attack a situation like this is to show 'Husker Auto Group' how expensive welching on your auction can really become. I think I speak for most everyone here when I say I'm willing to take a few minutes to make bidders on Husker's other auctions aware of how Husker does business...
	Appreciate 0

03-24-2008, 01:09 PM	#659
Herms First Lieutenant 26 Rep 395 Posts Drives: '15 M235i Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: LA. CA iTrader: (0)	Sounds like you have a good case. Be persistent - they're probably just trying to scare you off because the sad fact is that legal fees are often a deterrent for people (would you rather go through the trouble and spend the same $ or just get the car elsewhere now for the same amt? - they hope the latter). I'm not familiar with rules for contract formation as they relate to sites like Ebay. Assuming their auction consitutes an offer and you're bid acceptance of that offer such that a valid contract was formed, you're in pretty good shape and should either be able to (a) get damages in the amout you pay for the car less the price you should have bought it from them), or (b) specific performance of their obligation to sell you the car. Doubtful that they have any defense to this. If it's a unilateral mistake on their part, the only real defense would be that it was an obvious mistake and any reasonable person would have realized it (basically, if the error had been egregious, say they offered it for $1000, then the law won't protect you if you were just trying to take advantage of an obvious mistake). This defense likely wouldn't apply in this situation. As others have mentioned, go through the BBB, BMW, and Ebay and see what happens. If it doesn't help, consult a lawyer (don't rely on the lawyers on this site as obviously these are just thoughts and impressions and not intended to be legal service). Last edited by Herms; 03-24-2008 at 01:41 PM..
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03-24-2008, 01:10 PM	#660
JudgeHolden Registered 0 Rep 4 Posts Drives: no longer a bimmer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newark, NJ iTrader: (0)	Ok, I apologize if any of this is a rehash, I've only made it to page 25 or so, but: 1) I am a lawyer. Not your lawyer. None of this is legal advice. I am not telling you what to do, yadda yadda yadda (that's legal speak.) I do not even deal with this kind of law. Hell, 5 months from now I will not deal with any kind of law. 2) I posted on bimmer.org about 8-10 years ago. So hello to any refugees from there. It was fun going through all the e46 mule spotting way back when. I don't see how morals fit into this, although certain people bring them up. I'd say it looks like the following occured: 1) Dealer puts M3 on ebay. Dealer hopes it will get bids from across the nation. Dealer is thinking this will net them a huge profit. 2) Dealer starts auction well below invoice to attract more attention. 3) Dealer screws up. Despite ebay saying, many times, to note the difference between "buy it now" and "reserve," some nitwit screws up. Instead of putting a reserve at their invoice, they do a buy-it-now. 4) They never cancel auction. 5) Doomer bids. Doomer wins. Doomer is happy. 6) Nitwit's boss is not happy. The bid is under the invoice. Dealer stands to lose a few thousand dollars on this. 7) Dealer stands to also lose significantly more in a lost-sale, as the M3 likely would have gone for at least $10k above this price. Seems like an decent estimate of the facts to me. Now earlier someone mentioned that this was a unilateral mistake. This is likely true. However, their analysis of a unilateral mistake was wrong. C'mon, even google will tell you what the legal difference between unilateral and bilateral. So the question might be did the OP have reason to know it was a mistake. One one hand, arguably, as the BIN was ridiculously low. On the other hand, the auction did brag about being ridiculously low. It could go either way. The thing is, the BIN was reasonable. I'll let you draw your conclusions. Lastly, this is nothing like getting too much change back. Nor is it like a contract bid, which has laws specifically written for those unique circumstances. This is a dealer hoping to get rich. This is a dealer hoping to put this M3 on ebay and have people in California and people in Massachusetts starting a bidding war and paying far more over the sticker than people in Lincoln, NE would. The dealer screwed up in a way that isn't wholly obvious to the buyer, and in a way they should have noticed and cancelled the auction when they had the chance. The dealer gambled that the car would fetch a huge amount of money, and it didn't. The gamble did not pay off. The dealer could have hedged this gamble by using a reserve, or by starting the bidding at the lowest they'd be willing to sell. The dealer didn't. Likely half out of greed and half out of pure stupidity. Should the law protect you from being too greedy? No. Should the law protect you from being stupid? Arguably, but in this case, where it was a car dealer that had done ebay auctions before? It would be hard to convince me that they needed protection from their own idiocy. Again, just a brief analysis. No legal advice, in fact I've tried hard to make no conclusory statements here. This is for discussion only. Solely that, nothing else.
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