E9x M3 vs. E46 M3 Driving Experience (2021 Edition)

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by qusainshirazi

Having driven both, E46 M3 comp and owning a 09' M3, they're a whole different feel and ballgame. I like the raw driving experience of the E46, but like the V8 noises and feel of that S65 in the E92. E46 is plenty of power to play around with, E9X can feel a bit slow for what it looks like imo

Agree and disagree in part. Having owned both a Z4M and E92 M3, I'd say the S54 platform car had plenty of power compared to a Honda Civic. The E92 wasn't what you'd consider torquey but as a whole, the experience of the E92 was much more fulfilling. I'm looking to go back to an E92 from an F82, but would never consider an E46 M3.
I had no idea either about that the internet had established the E46 as a better platform. That's totally false IMO. It's boring AF.

[kyrix1st]

One another aspect to keep in mind is S54 hardly gains 20+ bhp from primary cat delete unlike S65 in E92 M3s that see torque gain over the whole curve.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

One another aspect to keep in mind is S54 hardly gains 20+ bhp from primary cat delete unlike S65 in E92 M3s that see torque gain over the whole curve.

I don't think power modability is a point in favor of the e9X-- 340-375rwhp is the norm, these days, on the S54 from bolt ons, NA (pump gas). More with aftermarket internals. Easy, and reliable, power, too-- I've been tracking with 350+ rwhp (so ~75rwhp over stock) for years now. I've swapped a couple parts this spring, and should be solidly in the 36Xrwhp range next time I stick it on the dyno to get tuned (SAE dynojet-- so ~440 at the crank).

If you want to go FI, MaxPSI has gotten 902rwhp from the S54 with stock internals and the stock ECU (and more with aftermarket internals).

... Not to mention, we can do all sorts of fun things like multiple ECU maps you can switch between on the fly, e.g. valet mode, 87 octane, 93 octane, e85. Swapped between using factory steering wheel controls, indicated on the cluster what map you're on.

[Bartledoo]

Funny, I haven’t seen a single formidable E46 at the local tracks unless it was basically converted into a GTR widebodied race car with a V8 swap and lord knows how much investment…not to mention ~1000lb lighter than a typical E9X M3 track car

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Funny, I haven’t seen a single formidable E46 at the local tracks unless it was basically converted into a GTR widebodied race car with a V8 swap and lord knows how much investment…not to mention ~1000lb lighter than a typical E9X M3 track car

I'm pretty sure you know that track times are far more based on drivers than cars :P

... and I am faster than 95% of e9X M3s I come upon on track, with my full interior, stock internals, no aero e46 M3 :P

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't think power modability is a point in favor of the e9X-- 340-375rwhp is the norm, these days, on the S54 from bolt ons, NA (pump gas). More with aftermarket internals. Easy, and reliable, power, too-- I've been tracking with 350+ rwhp (so ~75rwhp over stock) for years now. I've swapped a couple parts this spring, and should be solidly in the 36Xrwhp range next time I stick it on the dyno to get tuned (SAE dynojet-- so ~440 at the crank).

If you want to go FI, MaxPSI has gotten 902rwhp from the S54 with stock internals and the stock ECU (and more with aftermarket internals).

... Not to mention, we can do all sorts of fun things like multiple ECU maps you can switch between on the fly, e.g. valet mode, 87 octane, 93 octane, e85. Swapped between using factory steering wheel controls, indicated on the cluster what map you're on.

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding, but are you saying that an s54 regularly picks up well over 100whp from just bolt ons? Are you including a s/c in your definition of bolt on ?

Also, I’m quite quite MaxPSIs one off build is not representative of most FI e46 builds.

Apologies if I seem sceptical of these claims….

[kyrix1st]

NA to NA, S54 will never make as much power as S65 without sufficient modification.

One thing to note when discussing dyno figures is that E9x are much more sensitive to octane rating due to higher compression ratio and gains quite a few more hp towards AKI 96 with the stock ECU. If both S65 and S54 are using AKI 93 octane, there is no chance S54 makes more power over S65 on the same dyno.

Originally Posted by Obioban

I don't think power modability is a point in favor of the e9X-- 340-375rwhp is the norm, these days, on the S54 from bolt ons, NA (pump gas). More with aftermarket internals. Easy, and reliable, power, too-- I've been tracking with 350+ rwhp (so ~75rwhp over stock) for years now. I've swapped a couple parts this spring, and should be solidly in the 36Xrwhp range next time I stick it on the dyno to get tuned (SAE dynojet-- so ~440 at the crank).

If you want to go FI, MaxPSI has gotten 902rwhp from the S54 with stock internals and the stock ECU (and more with aftermarket internals).

... Not to mention, we can do all sorts of fun things like multiple ECU maps you can switch between on the fly, e.g. valet mode, 87 octane, 93 octane, e85. Swapped between using factory steering wheel controls, indicated on the cluster what map you're on.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

NA to NA, S54 will never make as much power as S65 without sufficient modification.

That's not the point I was trying to make. Your post was, "One another aspect to keep in mind is S54 hardly gains 20+ bhp from primary cat delete unlike S65 in E92 M3s that see torque gain over the whole curve."

-- implying the S65 gains more power from modifications than the S54. That is very much not the case.

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

One thing to note when discussing dyno figures is that E9x are much more sensitive to octane rating due to higher compression ratio and gains quite a few more hp towards AKI 96 with the stock ECU. If both S65 and S54 are using AKI 93 octane, there is no chance S54 makes more power over S65 on the same dyno.

A full bolt on S54 can easily make more power than a stock S65 on the same dyno/day, on 93 octane for both. I've never played with anything beyond 93 AKI, as I don't feel like it's money well spent, so can't comment on that.

Once you start comparing modded to modded, it comes down the specific modifications of the two cars in questions, but I certainly agree that at a similar level of modification the extra 0.8 L will have the s65 making more power.

But, again, that wasn't the post I was refuting-- the s54 does gain more.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding, but are you saying that an s54 regularly picks up well over 100whp from just bolt ons? Are you including a s/c in your definition of bolt on ?

Also, I’m quite quite MaxPSIs one off build is not representative of most FI e46 builds.

Apologies if I seem sceptical of these claims….

I'm pretty sure I said NA bolt ons and pump gas.

100whp from bolt ons (so ~375rwhp) is achievable these days, but that is the approaching the upper limit, so you need the best of everything-- full exhaust (using, specifically, SSV1 stepped headers and twin 2.5" tubing all the way back), CSL airbox and engine management, cams, bored out throttle bodies, pulleys, custom tune. But, yes, that is not uncommon and has been done repeatedly.

340-350rwhp is far more the norm/easy-- headers/airbox/pulleys/custom tune.

[STONEDM3]

S65 symphony put the e92 over every m3 IMO but I only own e46 and 92. E46 does represent the past error and the e92 represents the start of a new error to me

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I'm pretty sure I said NA bolt ons and pump gas.

100whp from bolt ons (so ~375rwhp) is achievable these days, but that is the approaching the upper limit, so you need the best of everything-- full exhaust (using, specifically, SSV1 stepped headers and twin 2.5" tubing all the way back), CSL airbox and engine management, cams, bored out throttle bodies, pulleys, custom tune. But, yes, that is not uncommon and has been done repeatedly.

340-350rwhp is far more the norm/easy-- headers/airbox/pulleys/custom tune.

Look, I’m not going to start a “if you mod this engine vs that engine, engine x will make more power” argument. But if your point is that you can turn an s54 to 11 and make it comparable to an s65 in power, I get that. I don’t call what you’ve described as just bolt ons, though.

But the extent of the mods your suggesting is essentially turning an s54 into a race engine that can’t really be driven the way that an e46 was intended to be. The same mods made to an s65 turns it into an unstreetable monster as well.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by 14_deltaM3

Look, I’m not going to start a “if you mod this engine vs that engine, engine x will make more power” argument. But if your point is that you can turn an s54 to 11 and make it comparable to an s65 in power, I get that. I don’t call what you’ve described as just bolt ons, though.

But the extent of the mods your suggesting is essentially turning an s54 into a race engine that can’t really be driven the way that an e46 was intended to be. The same mods made to an s65 turns it into an unstreetable monster as well.

That was not my point. Feels like you didn’t actually read my post.

That said, streetability is not decreased if your car is properly tuned. I have a stock s54 in my wagon and a bolt on s54 in my coupe, and there’s no difference in drivability. The only real issue is that the coupe is a bit too quick to actually be worked over (enjoyed) on the street… but such is the paradox of faster cars on the street.

I’d also say a race engine would actually be something along the lines of higher compression necessitating race gas, cams that require deleting vanos (gutting the bottom end), headers that throw away the bottom end to max out high end power, raised redline, shorter rebuild intervals, dry sump replacing the ac compressor, etc. Not at all the kind of things the bolt ons I described require.

… I have had that experience, too, in my old s50b32 e36 M3 race car. Zero desire for that experience in my e46 coupe, that my 2 year old rides in the back of 😜

[redline9001]

Having owned an e46 m3 and an e92 m3. They are very different cars to drive, the e92 is faster but I find the e46 a funnier car to drive. I regret selling my e46 … but I still own my e92 and I am not selling it .

[W///]

I personally skipped the E46 M3 and went for a Z4MR instead. Price wise, it makes no sense to me why the E46's are so much more expensive nowadays than the rarer, rawer, lighter and more reliable Z4M (speaking about the chassis specifically). Sure, the coupe prices have sailed, although still not as much as S54 clownshoes, but the Roadsters are still stuck in the high teens/low 20s. IMHO, it's an absolute bargain for that car.

Regarding the E9x M3, I've driven many older and newer M's, and while some come close, it's still the car that gives me goosebumps.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by W///

I personally skipped the E46 M3 and went for a Z4MR instead. Price wise, it makes no sense to me why the E46's are so much more expensive nowadays than the rarer, rawer, lighter and more reliable Z4M (speaking about the chassis specifically). Sure, the coupe prices have sailed, although still not as much as S54 clownshoes, but the Roadsters are still stuck in the high teens/low 20s. IMHO, it's an absolute bargain for that car.

Regarding the E9x M3, I've driven many older and newer M's, and while some come close, it's still the car that gives me goosebumps.

Prefacing this with a Z4MR probably being in my future...
-It's only ~100 lbs lighter, and you lose the back seat and the majority of the trunk in exchange.
-It's uglier.
-It has a much worse interior.
-The long nose makes it worse to drive a lot of the time.
-It handles worse, despite being stiffer. I'm pretty confident this is a suspension issue, but that doesn't make it super easy to address, because...
-Aftermarket support is absurdly worse-- and most of the good stuff they do get is hand me down M3 parts.

Z3Ms have shot up, IMO, because they're small... and small cars are just inherently more fun. The Z4M isn't particularly small on the outside, just the inside.

That said, I want to add a convertible to the fleet, and it's coming down to Z4MR or Miata. I go back and forth daily. I think I'd like the Z4MR more in isolation, but a 3rd S54 powered, e46 based car is a bit redundant...

[W///]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Prefacing this with a Z4MR probably being in my future...
-It's only ~100 lbs lighter, and you lose the back seat and the majority of the trunk in exchange.
-It's uglier.
-It has a much worse interior.
-The long nose makes it worse to drive a lot of the time.
-It handles worse, despite being stiffer. I'm pretty confident this is a suspension issue, but that doesn't make it super easy to address, because...
-Aftermarket support is absurdly worse-- and most of the good stuff they do get is hand me down M3 parts.

Z3Ms have shot up, IMO, because they're small... and small cars are just inherently more fun. The Z4M isn't particularly small on the outside, just the inside.

That said, I want to add a convertible to the fleet, and it's coming down to Z4MR or Miata. I go back and forth daily. I think I'd like the Z4MR more in isolation, but a 3rd S54 powered, e46 based car is a bit redundant...

Answered back:
- It's only ~100 lbs lighter, and you lose the back seat and the majority of the trunk in exchange. Weighed mine a while back, and it was around 3250 lbs, bone stock. Certainly not Miata light, but I think this is acceptable.
-It's uglier. Subjective, but I find it fascinating to look at. I think the car has aged exceptionally well. Not as elegant as the E46, but I think for a stock car, they look very cool, especially the side profile (I actually prefer it to the coupe when the top is done)
-It has a much worse interior. Materials wise, I agree, lots of hard plastics, but it seems they hold up well (no peeling aside from steering wheel trim). This is important to me as I drive with the top down only, so it's exposed to a lot of sun. I really like the retro design though, and it's just as intuitive to use as the E46's interior.
-The long nose makes it worse to drive a lot of the time. This is where I don't really agree depending on how you use the car. I very much doubt you're going to daily this thing, but between the seating position and the long hood, this is one of the most exciting aspects of the car. It just feels completely different than M2/3/4 ect ect... This alone adds SO much to the driving experience, which is what this thread is about"
-It handles worse, despite being stiffer. I'm pretty confident this is a suspension issue, but that doesn't make it super easy to address, because...
-Aftermarket support is absurdly worse-- and most of the good stuff they do get is hand me down M3 parts. Personally, I have no giant desire to mod mine, apart from wheels, a drop, carbon intake and a very mild exhaust. Not trying to turn this particular one into a race car. Also best stock brakes on an M car I've seen outside of my M2C

Depending on what you're looking for, I think the Z4MR cannot be beaten in terms of smiles vs $$$ ratio. As a pure weekend car, instead of a car that can do it all, or pure track car, I think it's absolutely fantastic. I cannot emphasize enough how ridiculously fun it is to hear the S54 howl with the top down. I've driven my car back to back with a GT4 and came away smiling after driving both (for different reasons). That's about as high of a praise as I can give it:


P.S. I've also driven the updated ND, interesting choice. Doesn't really strike me as your type of car to be honest. Have you driven them?

[Obioban]

I've not driven the updated ND, just the original. I agree the Z4M is more what I look for, I just feel like I should... vary my experiences. That's why I keep going back and forth between the two.

Biggest issue with the ND so far (pre update) was that I'm too tall to actually be able to close the roof-- but supposedly they improved that in the update. That'll be make or break for if can I own it.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Prefacing this with a Z4MR probably being in my future...
-It's only ~100 lbs lighter, and you lose the back seat and the majority of the trunk in exchange.
-It's uglier.
-It has a much worse interior.
-The long nose makes it worse to drive a lot of the time.
-It handles worse, despite being stiffer. I'm pretty confident this is a suspension issue, but that doesn't make it super easy to address, because...
-Aftermarket support is absurdly worse-- and most of the good stuff they do get is hand me down M3 parts.

Z3Ms have shot up, IMO, because they're small... and small cars are just inherently more fun. The Z4M isn't particularly small on the outside, just the inside.

That said, I want to add a convertible to the fleet, and it's coming down to Z4MR or Miata. I go back and forth daily. I think I'd like the Z4MR more in isolation, but a 3rd S54 powered, e46 based car is a bit redundant...

What about a boxster?

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

What about a boxster?

I have access to one I can drive any time I want, so not a ton of reason to own.

… not a very, but I’m also trying to hold out to see if the T.43 actually comes into existence. That would likely be the best sports car ever made for my wants.

[Azeka1]

Originally Posted by Obioban

-It handles worse, despite being stiffer. I'm pretty confident this is a suspension issue, but that doesn't make it super easy to address, because...
-Aftermarket support is absurdly worse-- and most of the good stuff they do get is hand me down M3 parts.

Obioban We've been on track together with my Z4M Coupe, and I think we even spoke about this in person. During basic street driving, I agree with you. However, the Z4M handling shines when driven hard. My opinion is that it handles better than an E46 M3 (at least for my driving style). It rotates much quicker, OEM brakes are excellent, and is more responsive. I even prefer the driving dynamics over my fully prepared E36 M3 race car.

From an aftermarket perspective, suspension options from JRZ and MCS are all you need. Everything you could want to do to the car is readily available, but it doesn't need much to outperform any heavily track-prepped E46 M3. Ask me how I know.

Good luck with the Z4M search!

[e46IX]

I've owned several E46 M3's and E9x M3's.

I currently have a Z4MC and E92 M3 in my stable.

The E92 M3 is comfortable, good build quality and a nice soundtrack. Thats all.

There is no question the S54-powered car puts a smile on my face more. It has a much more satisfying power delivery and a much more robust engine as a whole. The S65 rotating assembly is made of glass

[G80indy]

Traded a Z4MR for ordered E92 comp. 6mt
Throttle response of S65 is a dream.
Also - the 3k vanos rattle of those S54s!
Umm… no