E9x M3 vs. E46 M3 Driving Experience (2021 Edition)

[JayR_e92]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

Thanks for your input. I own both and driven both at the limit. E46 is a razor and E92 is a butter knife.

"E46 is a razor and E92 is a butter knife"

In stock form?

[Eja144]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

[COLOR="Red"]I didn't start the thread. it was a post I made in another thread and someone grabbed the post and made a new thread with it.[/COLOR]


but you're right, 7+ years of E46 ownership is just blind fanboy-ism

Well yeah, I'd say that sounds exactly like blind fanboy-ism. You're shitting all over a chassis it seems you've never actually driven. Comparing the E90 to a "bloated" 5 series is absurd by anyone's standards. E46 is a great car, but its fan club is fucking obnoxious. Just go to any E9x YouTube video and the comments are loaded with "bUt wHAT aBOuT e46??!!"

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by Eja144

Well yeah, I'd say that sounds exactly like blind fanboy-ism. You're shitting all over a chassis it seems you've never actually driven. Comparing the E90 to a "bloated" 5 series is absurd by anyone's standards. E46 is a great car, but its fan club is fucking obnoxious. Just go to any E9x YouTube video and the comments are loaded with "bUt wHAT aBOuT e46??!!"

I've never seen so many people get so upset because a M3 enthusiast who owns BOTH cars prefers one generation over the other. It's kind of funny at this point. I simply enjoy driving the E46 over the E92, that includes stock vs stock. I am not sure if there is a need to convince you otherwise, since its all subjective. If you want to talk about facts like long term reliability and how the 46 is a POS in that department, that would be a better argument.

[bmw>benz]

Owned both as DDs. The e9x is superior in every way. I used to regret selling the e46 m3 until I got the e92 m3. I wouldn't go back unless it was an addition.

That being said the GOAT and the one that got away is and will always be my e39 M5. I don't care that it was bloated and vague in comparison. What a beast. It still appears in my dreams every now and then. The only reason I'm happy with the e92 over the e39 is the fact that it's far more reliable in comparison.

[Epoustouflant]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

[COLOR="Red"]I didn't start the thread. it was a post I made in another thread and someone grabbed the post and made a new thread with it.[/COLOR]


but you're right, 7+ years of E46 ownership is just blind fanboy-ism

That might lead to confirmation bias, usually a component of fanboi'sm yea?

[Bartledoo]

I drove a student's stock E46 M3 at the track recently and to quote OP it felt like a bloated 550i.

[Eja144]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

I've never seen so many people get so upset because a M3 enthusiast who owns BOTH cars prefers one generation over the other. It's kind of funny at this point. I simply enjoy driving the E46 over the E92, that includes stock vs stock. I am not sure if there is a need to convince you otherwise, since its all subjective. If you want to talk about facts like long term reliability and how the 46 is a POS in that department, that would be a better argument.

Hey man, it's totally fine to have a preference. Not knocking you there. To be frank, most feel your POV is exaggerated and unrealistic, so we're disagreeing.

[JayR_e92]

I personally went from a DCT e92 M3 to a 6MT e92 m3 straight into an E46 M3 6MT. And in my opinion the E92 M3 is better in MOST ways.

Feels more robust without feeling too disconnected from the road. Drivers seat position feels much better. Steering feels quicker and more responsive with slightly less effort. Interior looks and feels nicer. Much more reliable long term. It's also still fairly analog and not overrun by computers and electronics like later models became.

On top of that, costs to repair and modify an E46 M3 are basically the exact same as an E92 M3. Over time you will spend more on tick for tack items on the E46 M3 that's just a fact and history has shown that. (This fact is most annoying seeing as e36 M3's are so much cheaper to repair/modify buy parts for).

That being said, there's just something about the e46 M3 that is engaging and nostalgic. It also tends to turn more heads which superficially adds to the experience of owning one. Both are beasts and it all comes down to personal preference.

There is no right or wrong answer and everyone's opinion will be different.

[GeorgeA]

Originally Posted by PYE46M3

I've never seen so many people get so upset because a M3 enthusiast who owns BOTH cars prefers one generation over the other. It's kind of funny at this point. I simply enjoy driving the E46 over the E92, that includes stock vs stock. I am not sure if there is a need to convince you otherwise, since its all subjective. If you want to talk about facts like long term reliability and how the 46 is a POS in that department, that would be a better argument.

I think the issue was the way you said it. Calling the E92’s driving experience a “joke” compared to the E46, also saying it felt like a 550i with no actual connection to how it really drives. There is a difference between what you’re saying now and what you said earlier.

Again, no problem with you liking the E46 more.

[PYE46M3]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

I think the issue was the way you said it. Calling the E92’s driving experience a “joke” compared to the E46, also saying it felt like a 550i with no actual connection to how it really drives. There is a difference between what you’re saying now and what you said earlier.

Again, no problem with you liking the E46 more.

I simply reused the word joke because that is the exact word that whack6 used to describe E46 values. One doesn't have to look that hard to realize that clean example E46 have been selling for $50k+ and they continue to appreciate .

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I find that frequently you get comments about how raw an E46M is and how tame a E92 is from people who have an E46 modded to the moon and back.

It's the same guys who would shit themselves when they drive a properly gutted E36 Euro being more than 100kg lighter. I test drove a caged one, could not believe it had the same motor as my slightly modded 3.2.

E36 had no subframe failure issues unlike E46, with a front under cross-brace and GT strut brace the chassis felt very firm. I regret selling the 3.2. (still got a 3.0 though)

[Helmsman]

E46 series is imo the best looking BMW 3 series to date, and the E46 M3 adding to that. Never had one though.
As 550i was mentionen. Did own a 550i for a couple of gorgeous years (E60 so old bugger but still). M Sport, tuned, exhaust, loved it, wanted more. Went E90M. Still stock after 7 years. One can't compare these two cars.

[soundofspeed]

Nice discussion here. I have a Z4M QP (it was a cheap alternative to the E46 M3, so I bought this instead) and an E90 M3. I like the E90 M3 really very much, a decent very conveniant vehicle with high practicabillity and one of the best engines ever built. Quality, refinement, suspension - really perfect and the car is much better then the Z4M (and the E46) in every way. But the Z4M is just different, it is another kind of driving, much more pure. Extremely fun to drive.
I also like the e36 very much. It is literally the same as the e46, but misses all the electronic stuff and is much lighter. With a Euro engine or a S54 really a great car for the track and cheap to repair and to maintain.
The good thing is everyone can pick the car he likes.

[marxdrift]

Originally Posted by GeorgeA

I really don't even know how to respond to this statement, but let's break it down.

550i and the E92 feel NOTHING like each other - not sure where you even got that idea from.

E46 and E92 are about the same weight, but the E92 has better suspension, steering (E46 has a SLOW rack, E92 has a quick and crisp one), engine, gearbox, chassis and just about everything else. By better, I mean more connected at a higher performance level which requires a more experienced driver to reach those limits vs the E46, who's limits are easier to reach which might indulge less experienced drivers.

A huge amount of people outside of this forum who blurt out statements like that haven't driven either car at the limit and are basing things off of regular street driving (which is irrelevant).

Again, the E46 is a pleasure to drive, I loved my seat time on track and canyon BUT the E92 is a step up in every aspect, it is more involving, quicker and more raw.

E46 and E92 are about the same weight, but the E92 has better suspension, steering (E46 has a SLOW rack, E92 has a quick and crisp one), engine, gearbox, chassis and just about everything else. By better, I mean more connected at a higher performance level which requires a more experienced driver to reach those limits vs the E46, who's limits are easier to reach which might indulge less experienced drivers.

A huge amount of people outside of this forum who blurt out statements like that haven't driven either car at the limit and are basing things off of regular street driving (which is irrelevant).

Again, the E46 is a pleasure to drive, I loved my seat time on track and canyon BUT the E92 is a step up in every aspect, it is more involving, quicker and more raw.[/QUOTE]

that's pretty much what i was gonna say, both are amazing cars, i don't track cars but i do like to drive through the canyons, e46 wasn't hard for me to take it to the limit but the e92 i'm unable to, yet atleast.

[MP0W3RD]

Every generation M3 has something that makes it special.

I will say this about the E46: its held its value exceptionally well.

The way the prices have gone, I can't see myself owning one though.

At the end of the day, its one of the more problematic M3s: rod bearings, sub frame issues, valve adjustments.

It's certainly a fine machine...but worth the same money as an E92? Nothing competes with the 8400 RPM wail for that bespoke V8 engine.

The E92 is a superior car in every measurable way (except weight...but my CF roof/speed cloth/ single hump E92 tipped the scales at 3550 lbs with all fluids and a full tank of gas) and has proven to be a far more reliable platform, rod bearings withstanding, but that seems to be a far less prevalent issue than it was on the E46 platform. And its still analogue. It has the BEST steering of any modern BMW. It will remain the most "extreme" BMW M3 ever developed...engineered with glee during their time in F1.

I find the E36 M3 to be a more interesting car than the E46 on a number of levels. It's far less expensive to own and maintain, a tremendous joy to drive, not nearly as problematic, and yeah it doesn't have ITBs...but with the M50 intake manifold swap, ASC delete, and a tune...it RIPS (5.1 second 0-60 launch in my 200K miles car with those mods and full interior).

To each their own! This is a wonderful community.

[14_deltaM3]

Originally Posted by MP0W3RD

Every generation M3 has something that makes it special.

I will say this about the E46: its held its value exceptionally well.

The way the prices have gone, I can't see myself owning one though.

At the end of the day, its one of the more problematic M3s: rod bearings, sub frame issues, valve adjustments.

It's certainly a fine machine...but worth the same money as an E92? Nothing competes with the 8400 RPM wail for that bespoke V8 engine.

The E92 is a superior car in every measurable way (except weight...but my CF roof/speed cloth/ single hump E92 tipped the scales at 3550 lbs with all fluids and a full tank of gas) and has proven to be a far more reliable platform, rod bearings withstanding, but that seems to be a far less prevalent issue than it was on the E46 platform. And its still analogue. It has the BEST steering of any modern BMW. It will remain the most "extreme" BMW M3 ever developed...engineered with glee during their time in F1.

I find the E36 M3 to be a more interesting car than the E46 on a number of levels. It's far less expensive to own and maintain, a tremendous joy to drive, not nearly as problematic, and yeah it doesn't have ITBs...but with the M50 intake manifold swap, ASC delete, and a tune...it RIPS (5.1 second 0-60 launch in my 200K miles car with those mods and full interior).

To each their own! This is a wonderful community.

All well said. I will say it again - a euro spec e36 may be the best M3...

[911r]

Originally Posted by marxdrift

E46 and E92 are about the same weight, but the E92 has better suspension, steering (E46 has a SLOW rack, E92 has a quick and crisp one), engine, gearbox, chassis and just about everything else. By better, I mean more connected at a higher performance level which requires a more experienced driver to reach those limits vs the E46, who's limits are easier to reach which might indulge less experienced drivers.

A huge amount of people outside of this forum who blurt out statements like that haven't driven either car at the limit and are basing things off of regular street driving (which is irrelevant).

Again, the E46 is a pleasure to drive, I loved my seat time on track and canyon BUT the E92 is a step up in every aspect, it is more involving, quicker and more raw.

My E46 M3 had a ZHP rack and I still wasn't a fan of the steering feel. Pretty numb on center. E9x M3 steering feel is one of the best I've felt out of any BMW in my opinion...and I've driven most of them. Heavy, direct and quick.

[ha9981]

I'm going to have to believe someone who claims to own both but describes one as a basically garbage is either lying or retarded.

Lying because he doesn't own the so called garbage.

Retarded because well he knowingly bought garbage.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by ha9981

I'm going to have to believe someone who claims to own both but describes one as a basically garbage is either lying or retarded.

Lying because he doesn't own the so called garbage.

Regarded because well he knowingly bought garbage.

Always make sure when you call someone retarded that you spell retarded correctly.

[ha9981]

Originally Posted by akkando

Always make sure when you call someone retarded that you spell retarded correctly.

Yeah that was retarded. Fixed

[Obioban]

[Obioban]

I think they just appeal to different mind sets. The e46 the most hardcore feeling NA M3, and the e9X is the softest.
-Stock, the e46 is the harshest riding M3, whereas the e9X is the softest (or maybe e30...).
-The e46 drivetrain clunks, while the e9Xs doesn't.
-The s54 is unable to maintain a steady idle, s65 can.
The S54 sounds like it wants to explode at 8000rpm, whereas the S65 feels unstressed at 8400rpm.
The S54 has the highest specific output and highest piston speed of any NA BMW engine.
The e46 is smaller, and it feels way smaller from behind the wheel.
The e46 is 200-400 lbs lighter, depending on how the cars are optioned

None of those are bad for the e9X (other than weight), but they are different-- so I wouldn't expect people that like the e9X's experience to be enamored with the e46 experience. But, if you like the e46 experience, the e9X isn't a better version of it-- so that's why you get people preferring the e46 to the e9X.

Since people keep saying they're the same weight, and I weight all interesting cars that come to my house (and some that aren't)...



Note: All weights are adjusted to the car having the equivalent of a half tank of gas.

But, looking at that we have to very comparable cars-- a slick top, no idrive, 6mt, 18" wheel e90 M3 (3638 lbs) and slitktop, no nav, 6mt, 18" wheel e46 (3335 lbs)-- so 305 lbs different, similarly (lightly) optioned.

Oh, and a final throught reading through the thread-- a faster steering rack isn't "better"-- it's a different compromise. If you prefer a faster rack, it's better for your taste, but there isn't an objective better here. If there was, why not have it go lock to lock in, say, a 1/4 turn of the wheel? :P

I find the e90 M3 to be more of a successor to the e39 M5 than the e46 m3. They are more similar in size, more similar in weight, they have more similar suspension geometry that people like to claim is an upgrade to the e46 (different geometry's a suited to different size/weight cars-- BMW actually wrote a technical document about this), similar ride quality, similar sound deadening, and similar V8 sounds (albeit the S62 is torquey and the S65 is revvy). Similar chassis stiffness, too! When I think about replacing my e39 M5 with an e90 M3, I can get enthused! It's a more hard core, lighter, sportier, revvier version of a similar concept. I have zero desire to replace my e46 with an e9X M.

... sadly that's a non starter, as my wife loves the M5 too much.

As these cars get older, the ability to be DDed matters less, absolute speed matters less (because they're both slow as shit compared to modern cars), and looks and driving experience matters more... and those last two are where the e46 excels. That, IMO, is why we're seeing the things happening with e46 values that we are.