Cost of rod bearing replacement

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

We are in the middle of inspection on a MY08 M3 w/ 104K on the odometer, VF540 was installed at 96K:







Here's Rod #8 in the meantime, we'll see how the others appear when removed.

WOW those things are absolutely destroyed. Inspect the crankshaft thoroughly!!

[italyix]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

We are in the middle of inspection on a MY08 M3 w/ 104K on the odometer, VF540 was installed at 96K
Here's Rod #8 in the meantime, we'll see how the others appear when removed.

Out of curiosity, was an oil analysis ever done by the owner of this car?

[Disciple7]

Originally Posted by italyix

Out of curiosity, was an oil analysis ever done by the owner of this car?

multiple owner car? did the original owner follow the 15k BMW maintenance or was more pro-active.

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by italyix

Out of curiosity, was an oil analysis ever done by the owner of this car?

Not that I'm aware of at the moment.

Originally Posted by Disciple7

multiple owner car? did the original owner follow the 15k BMW maintenance or was more pro-active.

Original owner, M3 was normally aspirated for most of its life - the blower has only 9K on it. Owner is very meticulous about maintenance.

We're on RB #3 now, I'll follow up with pictures as soon as we're completed.

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by italyix

Out of curiosity, was an oil analysis ever done by the owner of this car?

^ Curious to know as well, the oil filter should show bits of the bearing material considering how shot they are!

[BMRLVR]

Heed the recommendations of this thread by keeping the 10W60 and this is what most of you guys will have to look forward to! Bearings will be a maintenance item for the duration of your S65 ownership!

Run a lighter oil like a Rotella T6 5W40 or M1 0W40 and you may have a chance at preventing a lot of this bearing wear on a stock engine!

Add some clearance to bearings by sizing the crank journals and you won't have to worry about bearings anymore!

[metro44m3]

Waiting for the oil specialist, longwong, for official analysis

[WallyM5]

Gentlemen,

I changed my rod bearings out at 94,000 miles. Below are some pictures of the conditions. At my mileage I figured it would be wise to change them as I plan on keeping the M for a long time. Parts for you guys would cost around $500, I paid $703 from Tisher BMW but I also did my vanos hose and I have 2 more cylinders. The work took me around 16 hours, as I am slow and have never done this type of work before. But is was a very simple job and was a lot of fun.

We had a couple of guys on the M5 board pay for the work and one guy paid 2500 and another paid $3000.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Heed the recommendations of this thread by keeping the 10W60 and this is what most of you guys will have to look forward to! Bearings will be a maintenance item for the duration of your S65 ownership!

Run a lighter oil like a Rotella T6 5W40 or M1 0W40 and you may have a chance at preventing a lot of this bearing wear on a stock engine!

Add some clearance to bearings by sizing the crank journals and you won't have to worry about bearings anymore!

I totally agree. Every single picture has cavitation, the lack of flow due to the combination of tight clearance and thick oil will lead almost every single engine to suffer the same fate. Do yourselves a favor folks, ditch the 10-60.

[Wendall]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I totally agree. Every single picture has cavitation, the lack of flow due to the combination of tight clearance and thick oil will lead almost every single engine to suffer the same fate. Do yourselves a favor folks, ditch the 10-60.

I switched over to Rotella T6 last month! Hope that helps.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by biggynuts01

I switched over to Rotella T6 last month! Hope that helps.

Good choice, I posted in one of these threads some pressure numbers from using the 0-40. I watch the gauge like a hawk and have never noticed it down below about 36psi. The rotella will probably yield a little more idle pressure. I didn't have the gauge in the car when I was running it so I don't have any data on it.

[Disciple7]

well this is all disappointing

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

We are in the middle of inspection on a MY08 M3 w/ 104K on the odometer, VF540 was installed at 96K:







Here's Rod #8 in the meantime, we'll see how the others appear when removed.

I know that car...that happened because he has too much CF on the car

[PandaM3]

Curious, has anyone been able to get the cost of rod bearings covered under warranty?

I bought my M3 used, but have an extended warranty to 120,000 miles through Carmax's MaxCare program. This means I can bring it to any ASE certified mechanic. (Wonder if EAS or MRF can refer me to any ASE certified mechanics they work with)

If my oil analysis shows progressively increasing lead levels with each oil change, will I be able to get rod bearings replaced?

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I know that car...that happened because he has too much CF on the car

i added some to my car and detailed the engine bay just for you.

[DLSJ5]

It appears most of the high revving V8/10/V12 engines do use Mobil 1, 0W40. I'm not sure what makes the S65 so different that it has to use such a thick oil, especially when you consider the tight clearances BMW is known for.

FWIW here's a list of cars with high revving engines that use Mobil 1, 0W40.

1. Audi RS4 V8 - 8200 RPM
2. Lambo LP 560 Gallardo - 8500 RPM
3. Lambo Murcielago - 8000 RPM
4. Ferrari 458 - 9000 RPM
5. Ferrari 599 GTO - 8400 RPM
6. Porsche 997 GT3 - 8400 RPM
7. Audi R8 V10 - 8700 RPM
8. Audi R8 V8 - 8250 RPM
9. Porsche Carrera GT - 8400 RPM
10. Lexus LFA - 9000 RPM
11. McLaren MP4-12C (TT)-8500 RPM

I know they aren't high revving engines, but they are known for big power of course and according to Mobil 1's website the Buggatti Veyron runs Mobil 1 0W40 as well as the Nissan GT-R.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...d_Mobil_1.aspx

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

I totally agree. Every single picture has cavitation, the lack of flow due to the combination of tight clearance and thick oil will lead almost every single engine to suffer the same fate. Do yourselves a favor folks, ditch the 10-60.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

Heed the recommendations of this thread by keeping the 10W60 and this is what most of you guys will have to look forward to! Bearings will be a maintenance item for the duration of your S65 ownership!

Run a lighter oil like a Rotella T6 5W40 or M1 0W40 and you may have a chance at preventing a lot of this bearing wear on a stock engine!

Add some clearance to bearings by sizing the crank journals and you won't have to worry about bearings anymore!

Is there some evidence somewhere that lighter oil is preventing early bearing failure? What about those of us that consistently run their cars at very high engine temps? Maybe the M5 guys have some data?

I understand the logic of a thinner oil getting into tighter areas. That being said our engines run at 210 degrees which is HOT to begin with. On the track our cars are typically operating around 255-270 degrees. What are the lubrication benefits of a 40 weight oil vs. a 60 weight oil at 255 degrees? I am aware that both oils fall within a wide envelope of operating temps but how do the viscosities of both oils compare when at the higher temps?

This rod bearing issue sounds a lot like the Intermediate Shaft (IMS) issue that Porsches with the now antiquated M96 engine (986, 996 and 997.1) had. Many IMS issues were believed to be a result of IMS bearing failure that caused the IMS to wobble and eventually cause catastrophic failure. Except with that issue one of the solutions is (theory) to switch to a heavier weight oil. The belief is that a heavier weight oil will maintain viscosity at higher operating temps and stave off excessive bearing wear. One of the leading beliefs was that the recommended Mobil1 oil did not maintain its advertised viscosity and thus the recommendation was usually a higher quality oil or a switch to a heavier weight oil.

I understand that part of the argument is the cold start issue. I completely agree that during a cold start, especially in a cold climate, the effectiveness of the 60 weight oil is questionable. That being said, I feel this is why it is extremely important to allow the S65 to warm-up prior to any kind of real load is placed on it. Furthermore, if we swap to a lighter weight oil for the 10-15 min the engine is warming-up... what is the lighter weight oil doing at standard operating temps which accounts for 99.9% (rough guess) of actual engine use.

So is it better to have a lighter weight oil to protect the engine during a cold start at the sacrifice of viscosity/lubrication at operating temps or beyond... which accounts for the vast majority of engine use?

If we can agree that the most vulnerable time is during a cold start is it possible that some of bearing failures may be a result of not following a good warm-up strategy? I am not talking about bouncing off of the redline below 210 degrees, I am talking about avoiding any kind of high revs at all until the engine hits 210 degrees.

I would love to see data other than logical speculation? Because otherwise I can logically explain why we should stick with a heavier weight oil, that there is going to be a certain percentage of mechanical failures regardless of what we do, that some owners do not wait for their cars to warm-up, I would be shocked if bearings removed after 60K miles did not show at least some wear and that in the end the failure rate of the S65 is quite small despite how much this forum amplifies the issue. Granted I am willing to admit I could be totally screwed up.

Jason

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Is there some evidence somewhere that lighter oil is preventing early bearing failure? What about those of us that consistently run their cars at very high engine temps? Maybe the M5 guys have some data?

I understand the logic of a thinner oil getting into tighter areas. That being said our engines run at 210 degrees which is HOT to begin with. On the track our cars are typically operating around 255-270 degrees. What are the lubrication benefits of a 40 weight oil vs. a 60 weight oil at 255 degrees? I am aware that both oils fall within a wide envelope of operating temps but how do the viscosities of both oils compare when at the higher temps?

This rod bearing issue sounds a lot like the Intermediate Shaft (IMS) issue that Porsches with the now antiquated M96 engine (986, 996 and 997.1) had. Many IMS issues were believed to be a result of IMS bearing failure that caused the IMS to wobble and eventually cause catastrophic failure. Except with that issue one of the solutions is (theory) to switch to a heavier weight oil. The belief is that a heavier weight oil will maintain viscosity at higher operating temps and stave off excessive bearing wear. One of the leading beliefs was that the recommended Mobil1 oil did not maintain its advertised viscosity and thus the recommendation was usually a higher quality oil or a switch to a heavier weight oil.

I understand that part of the argument is the cold start issue. I completely agree that during a cold start, especially in a cold climate, the effectiveness of the 60 weight oil is questionable. That being said, I feel this is why it is extremely important to allow the S65 to warm-up prior to any kind of real load is placed on it. Furthermore, if we swap to a lighter weight oil for the 10-15 min the engine is warming-up... what is the lighter weight oil doing at standard operating temps which accounts for 99.9% (rough guess) of actual engine use.

So is it better to have a lighter weight oil to protect the engine during a cold start at the sacrifice of viscosity/lubrication at operating temps or beyond... which accounts for the vast majority of engine use?

If we can agree that the most vulnerable time is during a cold start is it possible that some of bearing failures may be a result of not following a good warm-up strategy? I am not talking about bouncing off of the redline below 210 degrees, I am talking about avoiding any kind of high revs at all until the engine hits 210 degrees.

I would love to see data other than logical speculation? Because otherwise I can logically explain why we should stick with a heavier weight oil, that there is going to be a certain percentage of mechanical failures regardless of what we do, that some owners do not wait for their cars to warm-up, I would be shocked if bearings removed after 60K miles did not show at least some wear and that in the end the failure rate of the S65 is quite small despite how much this forum amplifies the issue. Granted I am willing to admit I could be totally screwed up.

Jason

A lot of it was discussed here and I provided bearing specs and measurements, BMRLVR provided engine building expertise, and kawasaki provided both engine building expertise and oil analysis expertise.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856441

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

It appears most of the high revving V8/10/V12 engines do use Mobil 1, 0W40. I'm not sure what makes the S65 so different that it has to use such a thick oil, especially when you consider the tight clearances BMW is known for.

FWIW here's a list of cars with high revving engines that use Mobil 1, 0W40.

1. Audi RS4 V8 - 8200 RPM
2. Lambo LP 560 Gallardo - 8500 RPM
3. Lambo Murcielago - 8000 RPM
4. Ferrari 458 - 9000 RPM
5. Ferrari 599 GTO - 8400 RPM
6. Porsche 997 GT3 - 8400 RPM
7. Audi R8 V10 - 8700 RPM
8. Audi R8 V8 - 8250 RPM
9. Porsche Carrera GT - 8400 RPM
10. Lexus LFA - 9000 RPM
11. McLaren MP4-12C (TT)-8500 RPM

I know they aren't high revving engines, but they are known for big power of course and according to Mobil 1's website the Buggatti Veyron runs Mobil 1 0W40 as well as the Nissan GT-R.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...d_Mobil_1.aspx

Your data is inaccurate. Your showing all the cars that use Mobil1 or have it in their recommended lists, not just the cars that use 0w-40. For example the LFA uses a 5w-50 oil.

From the mobil site:
http://www.mobil1.com.sg/performance...s_mobil_1.aspx

The carrera GT uses 10w-60
http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt178_...cants---Mobil/

Lambo: Lamborghini suggests 5W40 for normal driving. 20W50 for a sports work-out and 0W30

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by regular guy

A lot of it was discussed here and I provided bearing specs and measurements, BMRLVR provided engine building expertise, and kawasaki provided both engine building expertise and oil analysis expertise.
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=856441

No doubt good information in that thread.

However, the problem I have is that the focus of the argument is that (A) The bearings are the wrong size/thickness which causes (B) 60w oil is too heavy (when cold) which will cause excessive bearing wear and eventual engine failure. So the logical assumption is that we should start seeing a lot of engine failures as a result of excessive bearing wear.

So for the theory to be correct at some point all (at least the vast majority) S65s will fail and they will fail due to excessive bearing wear caused by improper tolerances from BMW paired with an improper oil choice.

While I am willing to agree that the BMW tolerances appear tight, I am skeptical to agree that going with a thinner oil delays the problem. While a thinner oil may reduce wear during a cold startup, will it continue to protect the bearings at the S65s operating temp and especially during track use (hi temps)?

I have a seen a few blackstone reports that have shown the 60w oil may be shearing down to 40w over an oil change interval and thus using a higher quality 40w oil may provide basically the same protection as TWS 60. I do not believe Mobil1 will do the trick since in the Porsche world Mobil1 0w-40 has shown signs of shearing down to 30w or less over an interval and that is why a lot of owners switched to Motul or Castrol 40w. I think more data needs to be gathered here and frankly the S65 has not been around long enough.

But honestly, for this to be true... for this engine to be a "ticking time bomb" as stated in the above linked thread.... for BMW to have incorrectly designed the S65. We should see the vast majority of high mileage E9X M3s suffer engine failures or bearing issues. Right? I mean think about it, if the engine is of poor design we should see the majority of high mileage S65s fail and maybe only small handful, for whatever reason, continue to run without issue? But if its not poorly designed, if the M engineers accepted a certain mechanical failure rate of like 5%... then 95% of us should have no issue... right? Is the sky really falling at 5%?

Now I am not arguing that at some point the S65 will not have to be rebuilt. Like maybe its only engineered to last 100K-150K without at least some kind of overhaul.... honestly, as a uber high performance engine I am willing to accept that... but these threads are scaring people with like 20K on their motors. Maybe it would be more responsible to frame the concern or hold out for more data.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Your data is inaccurate. Your showing all the cars that use Mobil1 or have it in their recommended lists, not just the cars that use 0w-40. For example the LFA uses a 5w-50 oil. From the mobil site:
http://www.mobil1.com.sg/performance...s_mobil_1.aspx

It's not my data it's Mobil 1's, it's entirely possible other oil is recommended or used by the car makers, my point was, since it has been listed as a viable alternative to the 10W60 by BMWLVR, that MANY high reving engines use 0W40 and Mobil 1, why not the S65? The Lexus LFA uses Mobil 1 from the factory, I should have listed as such and kept it separate from the 0W40 Mobil 1 list, as I did not check the weight on that specific car, so good point on that, it does indeed use 5W50.

Originally Posted by JEllis

The carrera GT uses 10w-60
http://www.design911.co.uk/fu/pt178_...cants---Mobil/

In that above link, they also list 0W40 as a product for the Carrera GT, it's the 2nd product listing.

One thing to note is that the details for the mobil 10W60 in that link, don't seem to fit the needs of the Carrera GT though, lol. - "Mobil 1 Extended Life 10W-60 is engineered for the specific demands of older vehicles – It is specially engineered to provide longer lasting protection in higher mileage engines so you can get longer life out of your vehicle.....Greater oil film thickness for extra protection in older engines Higher viscosity to reduce oil burn off in older engines, More anti-wear additives to help protect worn engines "

From the mobil site as well: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=2

Originally Posted by JEllis

Lambo: Lamborghini suggests 5W40 for normal driving. 20W50 for a sports work-out and 0W30

From the mobil site as well: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=2

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by DLSJ5

It's not my data it's Mobil 1's, it's entirely possible other oil is recommended or used by the car makers, my point was, since it has been listed as a viable alternative to the 10W60 by BMWLVR, that MANY high reving engines use 0W40 and Mobil 1, why not the S65? The Lexus LFA uses Mobil 1 from the factory, I should have listed as such and kept it separate from the 0W40 Mobil 1 list, as I did not check the weight on that specific car, so good point on that, it does indeed use 5W50.



In that above link, they also list 0W40 as a product for the Carrera GT.

From the mobil site as well: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=2





From the mobil site as well: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=2

Gotcha... just pointing out the 'factory' recommended oils for some of the cars you listed are in fact heavier weight than what you made it seam.

For example, below is the factory recommended oil list for Porsche engines. Latest version I could find. As you can see heavier weight oils are recommended in temps above -25 deg C. Not to place too fine a point on things, your statement appeared like you were saying its strange that BMW is only company recommending a heavier weight oil for its high performance engines. When in reality, plenty of other manufacturers recommend heavier weight oils... engine and environment dependent.

http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_3/P...oved_Oils.html

Below is the factory recommended list for BMW M engines.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...ngineOils.aspx

Click the PDF at the bottom of the page.

I am not trying to be a dick but these forums can really amplify issues that in reality are effecting a very small percentage of cars. And, in many cases, the percentage is probably in line with what the factory considered an acceptable amount of mechanical failures. I am not sure what the percentage is, but consider there are a few hundred E9X owners in this forum with less than a dozen reported bearing failures...

Take it for what its worth, but I have the whole BMW M division on my side and on the other, there are a handful faceless forum members with varying levels of expertise.

Like I said before, I am willing to go against factory recommendations if someone shows me something concrete but at this point I just dont think the S65 has been around long enough.

When I had my Porsche 997 the #1 recommended oil was Mobil1 0w-40 as you stated. However, the 997.1 has an M96 derived motor and thus at least a small possibility (probably on the order of less than 5%) of suffering an IMS failure or IMS bearing failure. Many 6speed forum members advocated the use of Castrol or Motul oil of identical or similar weight as they had better properties. LN Engineering has a bunch of Porsche M96 experience and advocated the use, in some cases, of a higher quality oil than M1 0w-40. Thus, in this case, given the data, the level of expertise and experience at play (which went beyond just LNE) and the fact that the oils I was considering were on the Porsche approved list, I switched to Castrol and Motul. Even switching oil brands caused an uproar on 6speed despite all the stated oils being on the approved list and in this particular case there was over decade of experience with the IMS problem.


Jason