BBK StopTech vs. APracing--clear OEM 18" with 12mm spacer?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by Julius@WSTO

if i may add my 2 cents...

i think that there is a distinctive difference between customers that purchase BBK for street applications and track/race. obviously Race teams demand a lot out of their brakes than do regular customers. It is not as easy to say one is better than the other when braking duty is mostly on regular streets.

From what i have seen, customers tend to purchase with many different criteria and i don't discount them at all. Some place price as a major factor, some aesthetics or even the prestige of a brand. Some merely want a BBK that will show off their ride. Some have had great success with a certain brand in the past and they pay for their loyalty.
Again, I would be foolish to say some of these criteria are less important than others.

On the flip side, us as a vendor will try to accomodate these criteria by offering a couple of choices. the important thing for us as a vendor is that it is a reliable product and that the manufacturers have a support system in place that will allow us to serve our customers. Performance of the product is also key and so is reliability.

AP Racing and Brembo has been such company for us and we will continue to offer them to our clients. I can't say anything negative about Stop Tech as i have not dealt with them personally, but through a distributor.

The important thing is; don't be afraid to ask questions when purchasing any performance product and you should have a clear set of objectives and find the one that best meets your needs. I know i talked in length over time with "dawgdog" on his brake choice and even the fluid that he was going to use and the important thing is that he is very happy with the choice that he has made.

Having said that, i know of a lot more brands other than AP, Brembo, Stop Tech, Alcon that just don't cut it and we don't even offer them. Atleast, i know that i can offer the above products with confidence to our customers.

Great points, Julius! While there can be small and/or large differences when comparing one system to another, whether or not each particular owner, given their own driving demands, fully enjoys the differences is an arguable point.

It's much the same argument when choosing to buy an M3 versus a 335i or 328i. Some people see them as much the same, while others see gargantuan differences. They only share about 20% of their parts lists and the M3 costs a bit more for a variety of reasons. But if only commuting in traffic every day, will that type of owner enjoy all the advantages of M3 ownership? Well, maybe yes and maybe no. It's really up to the buyer to determine whether or not they can justify the extra expense.

The flaw in this metaphor is that at least this prospective owner gets to decide between two BMW's. If you throw in a coupe from Hyundai, Fiat, Tata, Mahindra, Great Wall, Chery or Geely in the decision matrix, questions regarding safety and longevity come into the equation. The point? At least narrow down the choice to the better brands and then choose wisely from there based on your own situation. Most M3 owners I know only concern themselves with the best available options.

Chris

[008]

Can the 365mm Brembos or the APs be run as a front fitment only?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 008

Can the 365mm Brembos or the APs be run as a front fitment only?

The AP Racing 368mm kit can be run as a front only, but I don't recommend it for track use. The bias is a little too front heavy for my taste, although there are a few people using it that way until they purchase the rears later. For the street it's alright, but the matching rear kit really brings the car into its own under braking.

Chris

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by 008

Can the 365mm Brembos or the APs be run as a front fitment only?

The Brembo system, absolutely.

Based on the proper combination of effective radius and piston area, the Brembo system remains within the appropriate range to ensure optimum brake bias based on the OEM master cylinder, ABD, EBD, and other traction control devices. You could run our front system alone, add a rear later, or never add the rear at all. For that matter, you could run the rear system alone, although I don't know why anyone would ever want to do that.

Bias is merely of of the many factors in an appropriately tuned brake system. The bulk of the engineering and testing for the system on the BMW M3 is based around temperature management, and the ability to consistently absorb and dissipate heat during extreme use and ensuring fade free performance.

And temperature management is not exclusive to pads the rotors...

Beyond that, there's a whole gamut of laboratory and on road testing to produce a caliper that can also handle the wide range of temperatures and abuse while maintaining a consistent and controllable pedal feel without the risk of seal degradation or the need for regular maintenance or rebuilding.

You want the system as a whole to be properly balanced, but you also want it to maintain consistent and safe operating temperatures. This is actually very much in line with what Chris and I have been talking about, that while some of the "other" systems on the market can hit the target for proper bias, and produce a brake system that initially seems to perform at an acceptable level for some consumers, these are the same systems that tend to consistently experience temperature related issues over time, exhibiting more wear, and requiring more maintenance down the line.

Again, something that you may say the majority of the people on this board will never experience, but at the same time something that the more discriminating consumer may appreciate knowing.

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

The AP Racing 368mm kit can be run as a front only, but I don't recommend it for track use. The bias is a little too front heavy for my taste, although there are a few people using it that way until they purchase the rears later. For the street it's alright, but the matching rear kit really brings the car into its own under braking.

Chris

Chris, I'm sure that you guys are within a range for bias where pad compounds (and the coefficients of friction) can be used to fine tune a system to a particular drivers preference though, even with a front only system.

*Personal preference is one thing, where sub par engineering is completely different.

I'd hate for anyone to think that your front system is front biased to the point where it may negatively affect braking performance overall...as we very well know some other brake kit suppliers like to claim for ALL products other than their own.

[008]

I would need it to hold up under heavy track use on very hot days. FL and TX with summers of 90+ even 100+ days where at a DE I might be out for an hour plus and at the club until I run out of gas. On my E46 M3 I had to duct it but my Elise and Cayman have been flawless with just PFC01 pads and Motul fluid. The Elise had AP fronts with swing arm brembo rear iirc.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

Chris, I'm sure that you guys are within a range for bias where pad compounds (and the coefficients of friction) can be used to fine tune a system to a particular drivers preference though, even with a front only system.

*Personal preference is one thing, where sub par engineering is completely different.

I'd hate for anyone to think that your front system is front biased to the point where it may negatively affect braking performance overall...as we very well know some other brake kit suppliers like to claim for ALL products other than their own.

You are correct -- I am speaking about my own personal preference. Pad tuning can be done with some patience as coefficients of friction change with temperature and pressure. In other words, it takes some dialing in to make it work best.

Is it engineered properly? You bet! Is it a good front-only solution? Yes, but a bit less than what is possible. The 4-wheel solution is just so good (feel, performance, thermal management, etc.), settling for front only would best be a short-term solution. The buyer gets even more out of their front purchase price when the rears are added.

The 368mm front-only setup is still better, in my opinion, than many other options out there. We are only talking about fractal percentage points here, but a few M3 drivers are at a level where small changes can be felt. Adding the rear kit later has gotten us a huge positive response every time. Good is fine, but great is better! Explaining all of this to those that have not felt the difference can be frustrating. Giving a haircut over the phone comes to mind.

Chris

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 008

I would need it to hold up under heavy track use on very hot days. FL and TX with summers of 90+ even 100+ days where at a DE I might be out for an hour plus and at the club until I run out of gas. On my E46 M3 I had to duct it but my Elise and Cayman have been flawless with just PFC01 pads and Motul fluid. The Elise had AP fronts with swing arm brembo rear iirc.

I am very familiar with the various Elise systems -- standard, Cup 4-piston front and 4-wheel AP Racing upgrade (but less so for the Cayman). Since the 189HP Elise weighs in at barely 2000 pounds, it is not nearly as hard on brakes as a 3700 pound (non-GTS) M3 with over 400HP. There is an amazing amount of heat capacity in the front AP Racing solution, but ducting is always a good idea to help with stabilizing pad friction response and extending component life. The rear system helps reduce some of the total thermal load on the front and helps pull down the rear, giving a feeling of more control and confidence deep in the braking zone.

[008]

Thanks for the info guys. I'm going to reassess once I've had the new car on the track. Now if the car would just get here....

[aus]

I think one reason Chris and Gary don't get why a few here chose StopTech is because they seem to think they sell for $600-700 difference in price, which is just not the case. It's more like $2,000 difference in price, which is a set of track wheels and tires mounted/balanced.
I'm never going racing, BUT if I were going racing and had the budget, then AP would be the way I would go- not taking anything away from Brembo. These systems are way beyond what my needs will ever be. Hell, the StopTech's are way beyond what I'll ever need if two race car drivers are fine with them. Chris and Gary are talking about EXTREME conditions (high leve racing) my brakes will NEVER see.

And at least I can say I go on the track with the car/brakes, which is just not the case with most owners of these brakes.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by aus

I think one reason Chris and Gary don't get why a few here chose StopTech is because they seem to think they sell for $600-700 difference in price, which is just not the case. It's more like $2,000 difference in price, which is a set of track wheels and tires mounted/balanced.

This is true, but only if the following two conditions are both met:

1. OE 18" run-flat wheels are being used, AND
2. Spacers won't be used.

Many owners I've worked with have either OE 19's or Euro non-run-flat wheels (the earlier E9x M3 ones) for the street, plus some have a separate set of 18" track wheels. They do this regardless of the BBK as they run different tire compounds and sometimes different wheel widths on the track.

For those running the North American 18" OE run-flats on the street, a spacer is required on the fronts. While some prefer not to run spacers (which I completely understand), a new set of wheels is NOT required.

Chris

[008]

I think what AUS is saying is that the real world sales price difference between the 3 kits is closer to $2k which is the equivalent of a new set of wheels. For instance the AP set can be had for $6800 let's say while the ST can be bought for around $5k for the 355mm version.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by 008

I think what AUS is saying is that the real world sales price difference between the 3 kits is closer to $2k which is the equivalent of a new set of wheels. For instance the AP set can be had for $6800 let's say while the ST can be bought for around $5k for the 355mm version.

Current pricing on a full front/rear AP Racing system is less than $6800. Al always, those who are in the market for brake upgrades should check with forum vendors for accurate, up-to-date information.

Chris

[008]

Chris, I was quoted about $6700 for your kit from forum vendors fyi. To that we need to add about $200 for spacers to compare for those with 18"s. What do you see the kit generally sell for? Thanks.

[david @ eas]

Originally Posted by 008

Chris, I was quoted about $6700 for your kit from forum vendors fyi. To that we need to add about $200 for spacers to compare for those with 18"s. What do you see the kit generally sell for? Thanks.

Sending you a quick PM

[aus]

Originally Posted by 008

I think what AUS is saying is that the real world sales price difference between the 3 kits is closer to $2k which is the equivalent of a new set of wheels. For instance the AP set can be had for $6800 let's say while the ST can be bought for around $5k for the 355mm version.

I got the 380 kit for that price. I don't know if it's still available at that price. The APEX wheels are suppose to fit the 380mm ST kit.

[garek]

I got the ST 380/355 kit for $4600 delivered.