BBK StopTech vs. APracing--clear OEM 18" with 12mm spacer?

[david @ eas]

Originally Posted by KM3

I'm sorry, but this statement is completely suspect and makes me question your credibility as a forum sponsor. To be clear, I have nothing against AP - I think their kit is fantastic, their support is top notch, and their track record is proven. The AP kit was certainly high on my list.

But what you are doing is making a very broad and bold generalization that the AP setup is clearly superior to the ST setup for track duty, which I think is completely bogus. Where is your data? Because the anecdotal data in this thread suggests that ST is just as good...

Both of these kits are top notch. Let's not make arbitrary statements otherwise.

Unfortunately there has been quite a discussion about competing BBK's and there is nothing against Stop Tech here, otherwise we wouldn't carry it wouldn't we?

But when you consider AP Racing's history, you'll see why I have a preference on what brakes.:

Since 1967 at the Dutch GP for Formula One, AP Racing has been winning. After this weekend at the Singapore Grand Prix, AP Racing has had a 1st Place win for a Formula one car running AP Racing 663 times since 1967.

Over the years this success has been repeated in all other types of Single Seaters including A1GP, Champ Cars, Indy Racing League, Indy Lights, F2, F3000, F3 etc.

In Touring Cars AP Racing continues to equip winners in the ever popular DTM, British Touring Car Championship, WTCC, and Australian V8 Supercar series. In GT & Sports Cars they also continue to equip winners from Corvette, Lola, Porsche, Bentley, MG Rover, Zytec.

Victory at Le Mans in 1999 was the first time a braking system had required no change of disc and pads during the 24 hour race.

When you come to a consideration for Motorsport, you'll see why I made a comment like that. In no way am I bashing any other company, as I possibly made you feel, but when you consider AP Racing's background, you'll see why I'm a bit partial.

I hope this clears things up, in no way do I mean to make an argument over this, but if you feel like I have made a mistake, please PM me directly so we can discuss it.

[ModBargains.com]

Just to clarify as well as I know that a lot of you have brought this up. The StopTech BBK utilizes a 4 Piston Forged Caliper that retains OEM brake bias with 355x35mm 2-piece floating rotors. Although the overall diameter is slightly less than your OEM 360x30mm rotors, the StopTech 355x35 rotors are thicker. What that means for you is that you will have an increase heat capacity and reduce compliance without upsetting the stock front to rear brake torque ratio. If you want to avoid the use of any spacers to get your OEM 18" wheels to fit I would highly recommend the StopTech 355x35mm kit for your M3.

- Alan

[KM3]

Originally Posted by jurrian @ eas

I hope this clears things up, in no way do I mean to make an argument over this, but if you feel like I have made a mistake, please PM me directly so we can discuss it.

I think you’re missing the point. Nobody is questioning AP’s credentials or history in professional racing. But that doesn’t mean that you can make a statement like, “if you're looking for track duty, AP Racing all the way.” That very specifically implies that the AP kits are superior on the track, which I still maintain is a very poor and brash statement to make. I've completely abused my ST brakes on the track and they have performed flawlessly and consistently (and I'm not the only one). If your statement is true, the AP kit would do that and give me a massage at the end of each session.

[BimmerRob08]

Originally Posted by jurrian @ eas

Unfortunately there has been quite a discussion about competing BBK's and there is nothing against Stop Tech here, otherwise we wouldn't carry it wouldn't we?

But when you consider AP Racing's history, you'll see why I have a preference on what brakes.:

Since 1967 at the Dutch GP for Formula One, AP Racing has been winning. After this weekend at the Singapore Grand Prix, AP Racing has had a 1st Place win for a Formula one car running AP Racing 663 times since 1967.

Over the years this success has been repeated in all other types of Single Seaters including A1GP, Champ Cars, Indy Racing League, Indy Lights, F2, F3000, F3 etc.

In Touring Cars AP Racing continues to equip winners in the ever popular DTM, British Touring Car Championship, WTCC, and Australian V8 Supercar series. In GT & Sports Cars they also continue to equip winners from Corvette, Lola, Porsche, Bentley, MG Rover, Zytec.

Victory at Le Mans in 1999 was the first time a braking system had required no change of disc and pads during the 24 hour race.

When you come to a consideration for Motorsport, you'll see why I made a comment like that. In no way am I bashing any other company, as I possibly made you feel, but when you consider AP Racing's background, you'll see why I'm a bit partial.

I hope this clears things up, in no way do I mean to make an argument over this, but if you feel like I have made a mistake, please PM me directly so we can discuss it.

Impressive history. I don't have any first hand experiance with any of these BBK brands, this would be my first kit on a powerfull car. But the facts speak for themselves. Thanks for posting. It's nice to know when you spend your hard earned cash on a system like this or what ever system, you can back it up with a good track record. Literaly!

[aus]

So you have a nail you need to drive into some dry wall. Does the $50 dollar hammer drive the nail any better than the $20 hammer?


Has there ever been an instance where a StopTech kit failed and an AP didn't.
No one is disputing AP's history. They've been around for a long time.

[adc]

Originally Posted by KM3

I think you’re missing the point. Nobody is questioning AP’s credentials or history in professional racing. But that doesn’t mean that you can make a statement like, “if you're looking for track duty, AP Racing all the way.” That very specifically implies that the AP kits are superior on the track, which I still maintain is a very poor and brash statement to make. I've completely abused my ST brakes on the track and they have performed flawlessly and consistently (and I'm not the only one). If your statement is true, the AP kit would do that and give me a massage at the end of each session.

Look at the AP rotor specs - they run a larger diameter so I suspect their heat soaking capacity is greater. If this were the only reason it would be a good one, right?

You aren't offering any evidence one way or the other either, you've simply said the Stoptechs were adequate for your own use.

BTW I'm running stock rotors and calipers so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I thought that a BBK (Big Brakes Kit) should have larger rotors than stock, which is not the case with the Stoptech 355mm kit.

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Without stirring the pot too much, AP Racing has been making friction components for about 100 years in total. They pretty much invented performance and racing brakes. One look on the current Top Gear lap chart says a lot:

1. Bugatti Veyron SS (AP Racing) 1.16.8
2. Gumpert Apollo (AP Racing) 1.17.1
3. Ascari A10 (AP Racing) 1.17.3
4. Koenigsegg CCX (w/TG spoiler) (AP & Brembo) 1.17.6
5. Noble M600 (Alcon) 1.17.7
6. Pagani Zonda F Roadster (AP Racing) 1.17.7
7. Caterham R500 (AP Racing) 1.17.9
8. Bugatti Veyron (AP Racing) 1.18.3
9. Pagani Zonda F (AP Racing) 1.18.4

The two cars that beat the latest Bugatti's time (but didn't pass the speed bump test) also run AP Racing brakes -- Ultima GTR and Caparo T1. So does about 1/2 the Formula 1 grid and all but a few cars in NASCAR Sprint Cup, the most demanding iron rotor application in the world.

These incredibly discerning customers can choose any brake system they like. The new McLaren MP4-12C will run a complete AP Racing system (including aero brake flaps) as well as the upcoming 620HP Lotus Elite. Let's also not forget that M3 GT2 and GT4 race cars purchased from BMW Motorsport come with AP Racing brakes fitted from the factory. And these are all paid for by BMW. No sponsorships exist from AP Racing, unlike others that run huge logos on the hood or down the sides. The manufacturers and competitors must pay for their components. Sponsorships drive costs up even higher, which customers always pay for in the end.

I don't wish to throw rocks as S-T. I actually like some of the guys over there. But when it comes to professional racing pedigree and experience with the top supercar manufacturers in the world, AP Racing has demonstrated for years that it is on a different plane. S-T has done a pretty good job of offering quite a bit of performance for the money and their marketing efforts are have been outstanding. They work very hard to keep AP, Alcon and Brembo honest, for sure, so kudos to them.

However, my preferred choice (as biased as it may seem) would be with AP equipment given the chance. It is definitely worth the modest premium. I've been working with motorsports friction for over 20 years and stand by my choice, with my reputation hanging in the balance.

The difference in feel and confidence cannot be expressed in rotor size or wheel fitment discussions. I really don't know how to quantify that look a driver gives me after running his first session on AP's, but it is definitely there. If you want proof, ask someone who has run the current E9x M3 strap drive system for their opinion. After all the ads, promotion, forum vendor specials/group buys, seemingly endless tech discussions, etc., that's the hard data that really counts.

Chris
http://www.facebook.com/pages/AP-Rac...29396143762748

[Gary_C]

I'm curious if my last post got deleted, or if maybe I closed the page or shut down my computer before clicking "Submit Reply"?

I was pointing out that the 365x34mm, 6-piston monobloc Brembo kit fits under the OEM 18" wheels without the use of spacers. I also pointed out that it's only $200 more than the AP Racing kit and $600 more than the Stoptech kit, while actually being $200 less than the StopTech trophy kit.

Just some food for thought, since I believed the Brembo kit to be a better value overall (even at the higher price point) than many of the other options out there.

As for aus's comment about a $50 hammer vs. a $20 hammer...yes there is a significant difference if you know where to look. Talk to any long time framer/contractor and he will tell you numerous reasons why the $50 hammer is hanging from his work belt. Talk to your neighbor who is an avid DIY'er and he'll tell you why the $20 hammer is just fine for work around the house.

Personally, I'm more likely to trust the experience of the guy actually willing to spend his money on a $50 hammer than the opinion and justification of the guy who is insistent that the $20 hammer does the same job. And as someone else sort of hinted at...even more so if the guy swinging the $20 hammer has their logo all over his work clothes and tool box.

[garek]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

As for aus's comment about a $50 hammer vs. a $20 hammer...yes there is a significant difference if you know where to look. Talk to any long time framer/contractor and he will tell you numerous reasons why the $50 hammer is hanging from his work belt. Talk to your neighbor who is an avid DIY'er and he'll tell you why the $20 hammer is just fine for work around the house.

Personally, I'm more likely to trust the experience of the guy actually willing to spend his money on a $50 hammer than the opinion and justification of the guy who is insistent that the $20 hammer does the same job. And as someone else sort of hinted at...even more so if the guy swinging the $20 hammer has their logo all over his work clothes and tool box.

Sure, you should trust the expert, and not some hack.

However, as previously mentioned in this thread, there are racing drivers on this forum who own M3s that have the StopTech kits on their cars. So it seems in this case, the experts have bought the $20 hammer.

[KM3]

Originally Posted by adc

You aren't offering any evidence one way or the other either, you've simply said the Stoptechs were adequate for your own use.
.

Yes, and that's all I'm trying to say. Unlike others in this thread, I'm not trying to make sweeping statements indicating that "for track use, brand X is a million times better than brand Y." I'm simply pointing at statements like that and indicating that they are baseless.

I have a lot of respect for the other systems mentioned in this thread, and frankly, I'm of the opinion that you can't go wrong with any of them - they're all great systems in their own right. But I'm not about to say "+1000 OMG LOL ST FTW!!!" I'm very happy with my ST system. A close friend of mine is very happy with his AP system. At the end of the day, both of us enjoy being able to stay out on the track a bit longer while being able to push our cars a bit harder.

[KM3]

Originally Posted by garek

Sure, you should trust the expert, and not some hack.

However, as previously mentioned in this thread, there are racing drivers on this forum who own M3s that have the StopTech kits on their cars. So it seems in this case, the experts have bought the $20 hammer.

+1

Gary, you and Chris are very valuable resources on this board. Please don't resort to using analogies like this to justify the price differential.

[rzm3]

In all fairness, all the brake kits offered by these various manufacturers are great kits. I've personally driven/ridden on the track in M3s with ST and Brembo, and know different owners (some professional racing drivers) who have various brands of BBK on their cars, and no one has reported any standing performance issues after installing aftermarket BBK.

Sure, the racing pedigree of AP is incomparable by any other manufacturer, and the reliability and performance of OE applications from Brembo is second to none...

But without any side-by-side comparison, I would be hard pressed to believe that StopTech's kit would statistically perform worse than its competitors on the E9x M3, especially when professional race teams (i.e. Turner) use near identical kits on their M3 race cars, and when professional drivers use the same kit on their own street-legal M3s...

Again, all great kits, but I have yet to see proof to show that any one is better than the others.

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by KM3

+1

Gary, you and Chris are very valuable resources on this board. Please don't resort to using analogies like this to justify the price differential.

That actually wasn't my analogy, just my response to one that had already been presented.

My point, as simply stated as I can make it, is that there are significant differences in the products being discussed here, and in this case, the physical and practical differences far exceed the cost difference. Whether someone wants to acknowledge those differences or not, is entirely up to them.

Walking away from topic of hammers, the higher end brake systems being offered to the aftermarket tend to come from companies with significantly greater abilities, resources and heritage. They also tend to operate with larger and more capable engineering and manufacturing resources, employing more costly R&D, manufacturing and testing processes, as well more stringent safety and quality control measures. Beyond the processes that bring a product to market, the results with these products have proven to perform better, last longer, and require less maintenance and replacement costs over time.

That's not to say that more price conscious options are worthy of a second look and a chance to prove themselves. Many people have shared their opinions and positive experiences with companies like StopTech, Rotora and there's no reason to avoid them if that's all your budget allows for, or if you want to use the cost difference for a second modification or replacement parts down the line. As for the idea of there not being a noticeable difference, or the chance that it could actually be better while costing less, it's just not possible considering the level of product that's available right now from the more prominent brands like Brembo and AP.

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by rldzhao

Sure, the racing pedigree of AP is incomparable by any other manufacturer...

Actually, Brembo and Alcon share similar racing pedigree with regards to braking. AP can actually attribute a number of their statistical victories in professional racing to clutches, master cylinders, pedal boxes,... and/or brakes.

Originally Posted by rldzhao

But without any side-by-side comparison, I would be hard pressed to believe that StopTech's kit would statistically perform worse than its competitors on the E9x M3, especially when professional race teams (i.e. Turner) use near identical kits on their M3 race cars, and when professional drivers use the same kit on their own street-legal M3s...

Again, all great kits, but I have yet to see proof to show that any one is better than the others.

I would say that this is more of a visibility issue for the typical consumer. In professional racing Brembo, AP and Alcon are widely recognized as the pillars of the industry.

While there are a handful of cars that do run other brands, these are generally a result of unique circumstance and/or sponsorship opportunities. The further upstream you travel the more you see teams willing to pay for the competitive edge rather than accepting sponsorship like they do in lower level series where the majority of teams still have to "pay to play" such as World Challenge and Grand AM.

As for statistically performing better or worse, I would say that professional racing is still the best gauge there is for which products do consistently perform at a higher level.
***Keep in mind that the word "perform" is a very broad term since "braking performance" can be anything from stopping distance to consistency to longevity to confidence.***
Regardless, if there were a product that was readily available, offered the same results (or even remotely similar), and came with a lower price point, you see more than a handful of club level racers and sponsored teams running their products.

[aus]

Originally Posted by KM3

Yes, and that's all I'm trying to say. Unlike others in this thread, I'm not trying to make sweeping statements indicating that "for track use, brand X is a million times better than brand Y." I'm simply pointing at statements like that and indicating that they are baseless.

I have a lot of respect for the other systems mentioned in this thread, and frankly, I'm of the opinion that you can't go wrong with any of them - they're all great systems in their own right. But I'm not about to say "+1000 OMG LOL ST FTW!!!" I'm very happy with my ST system. A close friend of mine is very happy with his AP system. At the end of the day, both of us enjoy being able to stay out on the track a bit longer while being able to push our cars a bit harder.

Originally Posted by rldzhao

In all fairness, all the brake kits offered by these various manufacturers are great kits. I've personally driven/ridden on the track in M3s with ST and Brembo, and know different owners (some professional racing drivers) who have various brands of BBK on their cars, and no one has reported any standing performance issues after installing aftermarket BBK.

Sure, the racing pedigree of AP is incomparable by any other manufacturer, and the reliability and performance of OE applications from Brembo is second to none...

But without any side-by-side comparison, I would be hard pressed to believe that StopTech's kit would statistically perform worse than its competitors on the E9x M3, especially when professional race teams (i.e. Turner) use near identical kits on their M3 race cars, and when professional drivers use the same kit on their own street-legal M3s...

Again, all great kits, but I have yet to see proof to show that any one is better than the others.

Nice to see some people have some common sense and can make an appropriate analogy and aren't so literal.

In any case, I'm not a professional carpenter, but there have been a few professionals here who have used the $20 hammer and it worked just fine for them... so is the $50 hammer truely a better hammer, or does it just give you bragging rights?

Originally Posted by Gary_C

That actually wasn't my analogy, just my response to one that had already been presented.

My point, as simply stated as I can make it, is that there are significant differences in the products being discussed here, and in this case, the physical and practical differences far exceed the cost difference. Whether someone wants to acknowledge those differences or not, is entirely up to them.

Walking away from topic of hammers, the higher end brake systems being offered to the aftermarket tend to come from companies with significantly greater abilities, resources and heritage. They also tend to operate with larger and more capable engineering and manufacturing resources, employing more costly R&D, manufacturing and testing processes, as well more stringent safety and quality control measures. Beyond the processes that bring a product to market, the results with these products have proven to perform better, last longer, and require less maintenance and replacement costs over time.

That's not to say that more price conscious options are worthy of a second look and a chance to prove themselves. Many people have shared their opinions and positive experiences with companies like StopTech, Rotora and there's no reason to avoid them if that's all your budget allows for, or if you want to use the cost difference for a second modification or replacement parts down the line. As for the idea of there not being a noticeable difference, or the chance that it could actually be better while costing less, it's just not possible considering the level of product that's available right now from the more prominent brands like Brembo and AP.

Still waiting on some solid PROOF that AP or your beloved Brembo is a better system, regardless of money. No one said StopTech was better, but if I thought there was going to be a tangible difference between the kits, I'd gladdly spend the money, BUT since I'll NEVER be the driver Juniour or Keen Leh are and the system works fine for them, I KNOW it'll be more braking capability than I'll EVER need.

You need to keep in mind 99% of the people here are just internet racers and will NEVER track their car... or exceed the stock brake capability.

Originally Posted by garek

However, as previously mentioned in this thread, there are racing drivers on this forum who own M3s that have the StopTech kits on their cars. So it seems in this case, the experts have bought the $20 hammer.

And it seems to be working just fine for them... which means it'll work just fine for 99.99 of ALL the drivers out there, and most likley 100% of all the drivers out there, but I won't go that far. You're basically poo poo-ing StopTech because they don't have the big name and history. I'm just asking for a case where a StopTech BBK didn't perform as expected or failed.

[KM3]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

That actually wasn't my analogy, just my response to one that had already been presented.

You're right, the analogy was already presented, but you turned it into a "we're more expensive because we're clearly better" argument (at least, that was the way I read it). That wasn't the original intent of the analogy. Man, some folks on this board don't just drink the kool-aid, they have it hooked up intravenously...

And before you all keep going in circles with this, let me be perfectly clear, yet again: I'm not bashing on the other brands and I'm not questioning their track records. As I've already said numerous times, I have great respect for Brembo and AP and for their respective histories. Time will tell if ST can attain similar credentials; remember, they are a much newer company.

In the absence of hard data proving otherwise, is it really too much to ask people to stop making blanket statements like the ones in this thread?

[AP Racing - Chris_B]

Originally Posted by KM3

In the absence of hard data proving otherwise, is it really too much to ask people to stop making blanket statements like the ones in this thread?

Gary and I have both made completely valid blanket statements. When you consider that both Brembo and AP Racing (which has been owned by the Brembo Group for 11 years, but still operates independently) both have large, high-visibility and demanding OE contracts, there isn't much more you can say. The fact that nearly all of the supercar and sports car manufacturers in the world have qualified their products speaks volumes over anything either of us can type in a thread. That fact is that, other than a few Alcon contracts, the two brands (taken together) lead the field by light years.

The TS16949 certification and OE validation test processes are things lesser manufacturers would not even dream of attempting. It would bankrupt many of them if they even tried. Again, this is not 'bashing' any other products, but an illustration of exactly what is being asked here regarding the differences. Car manufacturers don't read the forums to gather opinions or a consensus on which brakes to qualify. They actually do their own testing, have 3rd party testing done and also require the manufacturer to certify their internal test data. After all that is done, then the production process needs to be approved along with all the DFMEA's, PFMEA's, PPAP's and other quality system documentation. None of this is any sort of picnic. And, speaking just for AP now, the same level of internal processes is used on the aftermarket road car products as the same departments and engineers also do that work. I would imagine Brembo operates in pretty much the same way. If you want 'hard data', that is where it is found. Reputations are earned for a reason.

Did you know that many car manufacturers require their suppliers to write a check for 3 times the cost of a product each and every time a defect is found either on the production line or at the dealership? Some have a 'no questions asked' policy. If a dealer replaces it for any reason within the warranty period, get out the checkbook -- regardless if the claim actually has any merit or not.

This is not to say another company with some bright people cannot make something that works for a particular application. But you can bet real money that the level of design, analysis, simulation modeling, test validation, endurance testing and quality control processes of the leading companies will not be the same as what the bargain brands allow themselves to get away with either by choice or by budgetary constraint.

Did you know that most AP Racing rotors are made from cast iron alloys that are not classified anywhere? They are internal specifications that are proprietary to AP. The factories making the rotors in cheaper kits are typically use standard alloys (G2500, G3000 or, in a few cases, G3500). It takes a lot of volume to demand the sort of specs that AP requires. The lesser alloys do not respond the same to the heat treating profiles that AP rotors are processed through.

I also have seen some of the other companies' products in action on the race track. Sometimes, another manufacturers' parts are run in secret while the bugs are getting worked out (this is exactly what happened for a well-known team who runs BMW M3's!). I see one World Challenge crew chief nearly every day that is forced to work with a certain brand. He can't finish a sentence about the brakes on all three of his cars without MF'ing them. But he has no choice in the matter as there are paying stickers on the car. He just has to shrug and replace hats, rotors and heavily tapered pads after every event. There is no way he is going to let the media hear a complaint. Granted, it is more of a street system, but their "race" products aren't really that much different when you take a close look at them, beyond a different color and some extra machining (which makes them run even hotter as they have less mass).

Frankly, I'm genuinely surprised that the pricing is as close as it is. I would have thought companies with much lower production costs and smaller staffs would be able to price their systems quite a bit lower. The question to ask is are their prices really justified and how? Why is it only a few hundred bucks less and not a thousand or more? Many have been increasing costs over the last two years while AP and Brembo have remained pretty stable and in some cases even lower due to slightly more favorable currency exchange rates. If either company were to go to Taiwan, China and/or India like many others do, you would see costs come down quite a bit. But don't count on that sort of change happening any time soon -- thankfully!

Chris

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by KM3

You're right, the analogy was already presented, but you turned it into a "we're more expensive because we're clearly better" argument (at least, that was the way I read it). That wasn't the original intent of the analogy.

The original intent of the analogy read to me as "StopTech is less expensive and does the exact same job, so why would anyone be foolish enough to pay for more for another brand?"

While some people do think that way, there's a handful of others who may be curious as to why these other brands (Brembo and AP) cost more and really do appreciate knowing the difference.

Originally Posted by KM3

Man, some folks on this board don't just drink the kool-aid, they have it hooked up intravenously...

I'm curious as to why my statements would seem that I'm "drinking the kool-aid" any more than someone who is insistent that there's no proof as to why Brembo or AP should cost more than StopTech?

How about you explain to me why you chose StopTech over Rotora in a more convincing manner than Chris_B and I have tried to explain ourselves?

[Gary_C]

Great post Chris !

I really think some of these other companies survive purely based on the fact that Brembo and AP doesn't publish this type of information for public consumption because it's simply common sense to them since it's the way that everything is done.

The hardest part for me is knowing exactly what teams and people you are talking about that constantly complain about the product they are paid to use, and how I want to share statements like "We run this product on "this car" because of our sponsorship agreement, but you know as well as I do why I can't and won't run that crap on the ALMS car".







[/I]

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

Gary and I have both made completely valid blanket statements. When you consider that both Brembo and AP Racing (which has been owned by the Brembo Group for 11 years, but still operates independently) both have large, high-visibility and demanding OE contracts, there isn't much more you can say. The fact that nearly all of the supercar and sports car manufacturers in the world have qualified their products speaks volumes over anything either of us can type in a thread. That fact is that, other than a few Alcon contracts, the two brands (taken together) lead the field by light years.

The TS16949 certification and OE validation test processes are things lesser manufacturers would not even dream of attempting. It would bankrupt many of them if they even tried. Again, this is not 'bashing' any other products, but an illustration of exactly what is being asked here regarding the differences. Car manufacturers don't read the forums to gather opinions or a consensus on which brakes to qualify. They actually do their own testing, have 3rd party testing done and also require the manufacturer to certify their internal test data. After all that is done, then the production process needs to be approved along with all the DFMEA's, PFMEA's, PPAP's and other quality system documentation. None of this is any sort of picnic. And, speaking just for AP now, the same level of internal processes is used on the aftermarket road car products as the same departments and engineers also do that work. I would imagine Brembo operates in pretty much the same way. If you want 'hard data', that is where it is found. Reputations are earned for a reason.

Did you know that many car manufacturers require their suppliers to write a check for 3 times the cost of a product each and every time a defect is found either on the production line or at the dealership? Some have a 'no questions asked' policy. If a dealer replaces it for any reason within the warranty period, get out the checkbook -- regardless if the claim actually has any merit or not.

This is not to say another company with some bright people cannot make something that works for a particular application. But you can bet real money that the level of design, analysis, simulation modeling, test validation, endurance testing and quality control processes of the leading companies will not be the same as what the bargain brands allow themselves to get away with either by choice or by budgetary constraint.

Did you know that most AP Racing rotors are made from cast iron alloys that are not classified anywhere? They are internal specifications that are proprietary to AP. The factories making the rotors in cheaper kits are typically use standard alloys (G2500, G3000 or, in a few cases, G3500). It takes a lot of volume to demand the sort of specs that AP requires. The lesser alloys do not respond the same to the heat treating profiles that AP rotors are processed through.

I also have seen some of the other companies' products in action on the race track. Sometimes, another manufacturers' parts are run in secret while the bugs are getting worked out (this is exactly what happened for a well-known team who runs BMW M3's!). I see one World Challenge crew chief nearly every day that is forced to work with a certain brand. He can't finish a sentence about the brakes on all three of his cars without MF'ing them. But he has no choice in the matter as there are paying stickers on the car. He just has to shrug and replace hats, rotors and heavily tapered pads after every event. There is no way he is going to let the media hear a complaint. Granted, it is more of a street system, but their "race" products aren't really that much different when you take a close look at them, beyond a different color and some extra machining (which makes them run even hotter as they have less mass).

Frankly, I'm genuinely surprised that the pricing is as close as it is. I would have thought companies with much lower production costs and smaller staffs would be able to price their systems quite a bit lower. The question to ask is are their prices really justified and how? Why is it only a few hundred bucks less and not a thousand or more? Many have been increasing costs over the last two years while AP and Brembo have remained pretty stable and in some cases even lower due to slightly more favorable currency exchange rates. If either company were to go to Taiwan, China and/or India like many others do, you would see costs come down quite a bit. But don't count on that sort of change happening any time soon -- thankfully!

Chris

[dawgdog]

I have been more than happy with my AP kit, but would not in any way consider StopTech a downgrade. The person who installed my kit also installed KM3's StopTech kit. He is an advanced instructor and has driven both my car and KM3s at Pacific Raceways. We put new pads on my car over the weekend and he had nothing but superlatives for KM3's brakes.

[Ryan@IND]

if i may add my 2 cents...

i think that there is a distinctive difference between customers that purchase BBK for street applications and track/race. obviously Race teams demand a lot out of their brakes than do regular customers. It is not as easy to say one is better than the other when braking duty is mostly on regular streets.

From what i have seen, customers tend to purchase with many different criteria and i don't discount them at all. Some place price as a major factor, some aesthetics or even the prestige of a brand. Some merely want a BBK that will show off their ride. Some have had great success with a certain brand in the past and they pay for their loyalty.
Again, I would be foolish to say some of these criteria are less important than others.

On the flip side, us as a vendor will try to accomodate these criteria by offering a couple of choices. the important thing for us as a vendor is that it is a reliable product and that the manufacturers have a support system in place that will allow us to serve our customers. Performance of the product is also key and so is reliability.

AP Racing and Brembo has been such company for us and we will continue to offer them to our clients. I can't say anything negative about Stop Tech as i have not dealt with them personally, but through a distributor.

The important thing is; don't be afraid to ask questions when purchasing any performance product and you should have a clear set of objectives and find the one that best meets your needs. I know i talked in length over time with "dawgdog" on his brake choice and even the fluid that he was going to use and the important thing is that he is very happy with the choice that he has made.

Having said that, i know of a lot more brands other than AP, Brembo, Stop Tech, Alcon that just don't cut it and we don't even offer them. Atleast, i know that i can offer the above products with confidence to our customers.

[Poppin Fresh]

Originally Posted by Julius@WSTO

if i may add my 2 cents...

i think that there is a distinctive difference between customers that purchase BBK for street applications and track/race. obviously Race teams demand a lot out of their brakes than do regular customers. It is not as easy to say one is better than the other when braking duty is mostly on regular streets.

From what i have seen, customers tend to purchase with many different criteria and i don't discount them at all. Some place price as a major factor, some aesthetics or even the prestige of a brand. Some merely want a BBK that will show off their ride. Some have had great success with a certain brand in the past and they pay for their loyalty.
Again, I would be foolish to say some of these criteria are less important than others.

On the flip side, us as a vendor will try to accomodate these criteria by offering a couple of choices. the important thing for us as a vendor is that it is a reliable product and that the manufacturers have a support system in place that will allow us to serve our customers. Performance of the product is also key and so is reliability.

AP Racing and Brembo has been such company for us and we will continue to offer them to our clients. I can't say anything negative about Stop Tech as i have not dealt with them personally, but through a distributor.

The important thing is; don't be afraid to ask questions when purchasing any performance product and you should have a clear set of objectives and find the one that best meets your needs. I know i talked in length over time with "dawgdog" on his brake choice and even the fluid that he was going to use and the important thing is that he is very happy with the choice that he has made.

Having said that, i know of a lot more brands other than AP, Brembo, Stop Tech, Alcon that just don't cut it and we don't even offer them. Atleast, i know that i can offer the above products with confidence to our customers.

^

Your approach to this discussion is commendable as a vendor.