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11-22-2009, 09:49 PM | #45 | |
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The m3 does not make more "wheel torque" or whatever the hell you're trying to say after 2500rpm... go look at a dyno graph... THATS WHEEL TORQUE... which is the end all be all. As for short shifting a 335i you have it completely ass backwards... if anything you would short shift 1st and possibly 2nd to maintain traction... every other gear should pull to redline. Again its the delta between area's under the curve.
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11-22-2009, 09:55 PM | #46 | |
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This is the same criticism about the Honda Civic Si and the S2000, that they need to be insanely high rev'ed to move the suckers down the street. Well, that's the whole design idea... |
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11-22-2009, 09:57 PM | #47 | |
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11-22-2009, 09:58 PM | #48 | |
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Dyno graphs posted on the internet almost never display actual wheel torque. They factor the gearing and final drive back in. A simple proof is that actual wheel torque reads in the thousands ft-lbs in most gears, not hundreds. Crank torque reads in the hundreds. Download one of these and you'll see: http://rri.se/popup/performancegraphs.php?ChartsID=768
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11-22-2009, 10:03 PM | #49 | |
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Not to mention, what you state about flat torque curve and high redline and trying to relate that to anything without proper data is my point of how you're just guessing. I think you have a bit of an understanding, but you're making far too many assumptions. You cannot look at power graphs (of different cars) alone and correlate that to acceleration, or make comparisons, regardless of peak powers. And HP is totally irrelevant to determining acceleration. HP is just a devised attempt to try to have one power figure to give one the idea of power while taking into consideration engine torque spread and the redline rpm. But stating HP figures is a lot easier than trying to explain all about multiplied torque as the real determinant of power as we define it and understand it. Anyway, moral of the story is the M3 has plenty of power starting at 2,500 rpms. More than the other 2 cars. That is what you call undisputable fact.
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11-22-2009, 10:05 PM | #50 | |
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Yes, in the thousands in lower gears. Higher gears reduce the multiplication affect.
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11-22-2009, 10:10 PM | #51 |
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Concept?
Quite frankly, BMW has done a good job of selling a comparatively unimpressive engine. For instance their claims that it's more fuel efficient than the 3.2 liter straight six are just plain false. I've been happy with each of the three M3s I've owned, but I'll likely be happier with the F30 than with the E92.
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11-22-2009, 10:16 PM | #52 | |
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11-22-2009, 10:19 PM | #54 | |
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11-22-2009, 10:20 PM | #55 |
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When arguing torque multiplication, doesn't that apply to the other cars we are also comparing too and making it a mute point? Aggressive gearing + 1K more RPMs can't surely make up for the 70-100 lbs more torque in the comparing car can it?
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11-22-2009, 10:20 PM | #56 | |
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i wish u could have ur turbo m3 now |
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11-22-2009, 10:44 PM | #57 |
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Maybe people just get tired of posting on the same tired topics ; )
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11-22-2009, 10:45 PM | #58 |
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Some of you guys aren't really understanding... Torque as a number that the engine produces is not the end-all-be-all. It is important, but there are many other factors that cause a car to BE fast (one thing) and FEEL fast (another thing). For starters, let's think about a quick accelerating car, like a Formula 1 car. Their engines produce less than 300 pounds feet of torque. Cool. BUT, they have a very, very high redline and therefore can have very aggressive (big number, big multiplier) gears and a very large final drive ratio. This means that this torque gets multiplied by a bigger number and then a bigger number hits the road. So, while the headline number that American companies brag about is... "small"... it still puts a lot of power down and moves quickly.
Additionally, on the M3, the whole point and design of the engine is to... REV IT. Unlike turbo cars, which are fine with a 6,000 or 7,000RPM redline this V8 was built to rev and sing. You do not want an M3 to have a lot of low-end power because this means at part throttle and off the line you will have wheel spin. A linear delivery and less torque down low will allow for easier launching and throttle modulation. So, complaining about buying a more expensive M3 and having no low end torque is insane. (Who the hell wants low end torque? The trade off is no top end power.) Save your money and chip a 335i or wear a hat and call yourself silly. Honestly. |
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11-22-2009, 10:50 PM | #59 | |
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Unimpressive?? Really?? Rather than M_philosophy of high-revving, 100+ HP/Liter engines with sonorous engine notes and lofty redline, if torquey, no engine/exhaust note to speak of, low-revving and fuel efficient engines is your thing, you would be much happier looking outside BMW since that is what F30 M3 would be and there is nothing unique about that.
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11-22-2009, 10:52 PM | #60 | |
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This thread is awesome. |
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11-23-2009, 12:31 AM | #63 | |
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Ultimately, I define cars by the smile factor they give to me. Chasing higher HP numbers is pretty adolescent, costs a lot, yields very little, and typically imbalances the overall package considerably. Now that I'm back in the States, I see absolutely no reason to have big power in your car. But I do see certain mods as refining or correcting something that was decided by BMW for the masses. For example, the 3.62 rear diff in both my M cars was I think a bad choice by the M division. The 3.91 would have been perfect, and given both my cars the grunt it should have to take full advantage of the engine's power delivery. It also would have spaced its performance more nicely against non-M variants. I'm sure BMW chose this ratio for fuel economy and for longevity/warranty reasons. Perhaps even liability reasons? That and giving the car a better suspension (KW V2 coilovers will do) and it's essentially a perfect road car. I still look at E46 M3s as more desirable than the E92 M3. Of course the E30 M3 to me is most desirable. The Euro E36 would be too, but certainly not the US E36 M3. BTW, I had a friend in Germany that is now in Japan. He (a doctor) has a E46 M3 with the ESS FI and the car has nearly 700 HP. I'm sure it was a missile on the Autobahns, but mechanical grip is a limiting factor you can't defeat as are speed limiting tire constraints. I doubt he ever drove it over any speed I obtained in my Z4 M. Hell, even the BMW motorsport Z4 M is only rated at 400 HP (and it comes with the 3.91 rear diff ratio BTW). How much power do road cars really need...especially in the US? Whatever my engines put out is plenty for me (multiplied by a shorter final gear though ) ideally...
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11-23-2009, 12:46 AM | #64 | |
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You really never get that burst of power feeling, as the torque is so linear. Less informed people who drive a 335 and M3 back to back, many times say the 335 feels faster. Just the nature of the way the car delivers power. You mentioned and recommended a 3.91 diff for this car. I don't see anyone making final drives in the ratio. What do you think of 4.10? Is that too high? I'm considering that as my next mod after suspension.
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11-23-2009, 12:55 AM | #65 | |
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Actually, if we delete every post in this thread accept for Lucid's and PG's, then this would be a thread full of accurate and useful information, but since we can't, it isn't. Cheers, e46e92
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11-23-2009, 01:00 AM | #66 | |
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With that I'm dragging my old bones to bed. Cheers!
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