Are our friends mounting a coup?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Is it not possible for BMW M to develop a DFI solution during the E92 production run and begin implementing it or do we have to wait until the next model altogether?

Good question. I was wondering about that, too. BMW has not messed with the M3 engines too much for any given chassis. I believe the E46 M3 did not change at all during production, and both the E30 M3 and the E36 M3 engine got 0.2l displament bumps mid-way through. I am sure DFI will be technically possible in a year or two, but pratically, I doubt it.

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by lucid

Good question. I was wondering about that, too. BMW has not messed with the M3 engines too much for any given chassis. I believe the E46 M3 did not change at all during production, and both the E30 M3 and the E36 M3 engine got 0.2l displament bumps mid-way through. I am sure DFI will be technically possible in a year or two, but pratically, I doubt it.

Although they don't mess with the engine often, they introduced the ZCP package. BMW has also had other performance adding models/packages in the previous(E30/E36) models. I hope it's a possibility, but I know I'd sure be pissed if I bought one of the earlier models and BMW turned around and introduced a DFI model.

Seems like it'd be a long time to wait to see a DFI M3 if we have to wait until the next model run.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Although they don't mess with the engine often, they introduced the ZCP package. BMW has also had other performance adding models/packages in the previous(E30/E36) models. I hope it's a possibility, but I know I'd sure be pissed if I bought one of the earlier models and BMW turned around and introduced a DFI model.

Seems like it'd be a long time to wait to see a DFI M3 if we have to wait until the next model run.

Yep, the ZCP did improve handling but did not alter the engine. The E46 CSL did though with new manifolds and exhaust.

I would image that BMW would not want to piss nicely paying customers off. They would aliniate about 20000 people if they were to introduce DFI during the second year run.

The only reason I can think of for such a move is potentially stiff competition emerging within the next 2 years. If the new RS4 comes out with a 550hp+ engine for instance, which is possible if they turbocharge a varient of the current engine. Then there is the GTR.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Although they don't mess with the engine often, they introduced the ZCP package. BMW has also had other performance adding models/packages in the previous(E30/E36) models. I hope it's a possibility, but I know I'd sure be pissed if I bought one of the earlier models and BMW turned around and introduced a DFI model.

Seems like it'd be a long time to wait to see a DFI M3 if we have to wait until the next model run.

I think read somewhere where an M engineer said that since they made a decision early on to base the 4 litre off the 5 litre, DFI won't be introduced into the M line until next generation. This is where I think Porsche is going to be ahead of the game, batting clean up sorta speak. Hope I am wrong. By the way, I don't think Porsche is going to get the horsepower and mileage numbers claimed in AutoLies through DFI.

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yep, the ZCP did improve handling but did not alter the engine. The E46 CSL did though with new manifolds and exhaust.

I would image that BMW would not want to piss nicely paying customers off. They would aliniate about 20000 people if they were to introduce DFI during the second year run.

The only reason I can think of for such a move is potentially stiff competition emerging within the next 2 years. If the new RS4 comes out with a 550hp+ engine for instance, which is possible if they turbocharge a varient of the current engine. Then there is the GTR.

Any idea how long this model run is supposed to be?

Another six years is a long time to wait for DFI in the M3.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by lucid

I would image that BMW would not want to piss nicely paying customers off. They would aliniate about 20000 people if they were to introduce DFI during the second year run.

You must be kidding. Just look at what the 335 did to 330 customers a year or so later. BMW knows there are plenty of Roundel worshippers who have to have their "latest and greatest" to show up the neighbors.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Any idea how long this model run is supposed to be?

Another six years is a long time to wait for DFI in the M3.

I am afraid it is exactly that: 6 years. Then +1 for the usual absence of the M3 from the lineup while the 3-series is introduced.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Would you pay $5 for a pensil, simply because you can afford to do so..?

Perhaps he wants both car, but wants to make a logical descision based on several dynamics and not just performance. But, notwithstanding, performance must meet a certain mark to be considered.

Why knows.

I just hope you enjoy your purchases.

Not to rehash this thread, but this is the essence of what I was saying, or trying to say.

Let's move forward and appreciate what we have to look forward to.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

You must be kidding. Just look at what the 335 did to 330 customers a year or so later. BMW knows there are plenty of Roundel worshippers who have to have their "latest and greatest" to show up the neighbors.

Oh, but the 330 customers are not necessarily the "give me the highest performance possible on a street car" people. And they would have paid much less than the M3 customers. Most M3 buyers will be wanting every bit of performance for the buck--regardless of the fact that they won't use it on the street. And they will be paying big bucks. Regardless, I agree that there must be some pissed off 330 customers out there, but I doubt that they number in the thousands, or that that would keep them from buying another BMW.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by devo

Let's move forward and appreciate what we have to look forward to.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by lucid

Oh, but the 330 customers are not necessarily the "give me the highest performance possible on a street car" people. And they would have paid much less than the M3 customers. Most M3 buyers will be wanting every bit of performance for the buck--regardless of the fact that they won't use it on the street. And they will be paying big bucks. Regardless, I agree that there must be some pissed off 330 customers out there, but I doubt that they number in the thousands, or that that would keep them from buying another BMW.

330 customers may not be as wealthy as M buyers or maybe they are just smarter with their money, considering cost of ownership. However, they are enthusiasts alike or they would probably of bought the 328 And I would bet, based only various BMW boards, the numbers are quite high. Who wouldn't be angry after driving the 335? Remember, those flying propellors are quite an alluring status symbol in most crowds. Sales numbers keep proving it.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

330 customers may not be as wealthy as M buyers or maybe they are just smarter with their money, considering cost of ownership. However, they are enthusiasts alike or they would probably of bought the 328 And I would bet, based only various BMW boards, the numbers are quite high. Who wouldn't be angry after driving the 335? Remember, those flying propellors are quite an alluring status symbol in most crowds. Sales numbers keep proving it.

You have a point about the 328 vs. 330 decision. I wonder if the arrival of the 335 was publicized/leaked in advance so that potential buyers at least had the option to wait? If the M3 was going to get DFI mid-cycle (unlikely), I would think the best way to handle it might be to leak some info about it so that the enthusiasts get a chance to think things through...

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by lucid

I am afraid it is exactly that: 6 years. Then +1 for the usual absence of the M3 from the lineup while the 3-series is introduced.

This makes me sad.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by lucid

You have a point about the 328 vs. 330 decision. I wonder if the arrival of the 335 was publicized/leaked in advance so that potential buyers at least had the option to wait? If the M3 was going to get DFI mid-cycle (unlikely), I would think the best way to handle it might be to leak some info about it so that the enthusiasts get a chance to think things through...

I was really hoping for DFI, especially knowing that Porsche was on the cusp of introducing their own version and the 335 already had it. Seemed like a no brainer. This has been probably the biggest disapointment for me with the new M3. Imagine the horsepower and mileage bump it would of provided. It would have been a monster that the RS4, C63 and C2 couldn't of touched for years to come.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ruff

I was really hoping for DFI, especially knowing that Porsche was on the cusp of introducing their own version and the 335 already had it. Seemed like a no brainer. This has been probably the biggest disapointment for me with the new M3. Imagine the horsepower and mileage bump it would of provided. It would have been a monster that the RS4, C63 and C2 couldn't of touched for years to come.

There was a discussion around this on another thread. I believe it came down to BMW wanting to push the envelope in implementing the DFI tech that uses the highest injector pressure/design, which is not exactly ready yet.

[Stahlgrau]

Originally Posted by ruff

I was really hoping for DFI, especially knowing that Porsche was on the cusp of introducing their own version and the 335 already had it. Seemed like a no brainer. This has been probably the biggest disapointment for me with the new M3. Imagine the horsepower and mileage bump it would of provided. It would have been a monster that the RS4, C63 and C2 couldn't of touched for years to come.

Man, you have a new "biggest disappointment" every other day. Is there anything about the M3 you do like?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by Stahlgrau

Man, you have a new "biggest disappointment" every other day. Is there anything about the M3 you do like?

The flying propeller of course, enough said?

[ruff]

Originally Posted by lucid

There was a discussion around this on another thread. I believe it came down to BMW wanting to push the envelope in implementing the DFI tech that uses the highest injector pressure/design, which is not exactly ready yet.

I read that too. Looks like PAG may be making some headway with this if AutoLies numbers are even halfway close.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by lucid

You have a point about the 328 vs. 330 decision. I wonder if the arrival of the 335 was publicized/leaked in advance so that potential buyers at least had the option to wait? If the M3 was going to get DFI mid-cycle (unlikely), I would think the best way to handle it might be to leak some info about it so that the enthusiasts get a chance to think things through...

The info was available, but it was not acknowledged in the least by BMW and was also debated very hotly on the forums. In addtion, BMW waited until the absolute 11th hour to finally confirm the E90 335i. Most everyone was convinced that only the E92/E93 would get the N54 turbo. Others thought that the E90 would get it, but not until a few model years later (like for the mid-life refresh). You really had to scour the forums and keep track of the posts made by the claimed insiders and study their track records. People were getting flamed left and right for even suggesting that BMW would release an E90 335i so early and "screw over" the 2006 330i owners.

In the end, many, many, MANY people were caught off guard by the E90 335i, and there were countless threads on E90post from pissed off 330i owners. I would guess that probably at least 25% of them have gone on to trade for a 335i by now (taking a large loss in the process). Bottom line is, IMHO, it is rare for an automanufacturer to base their products around the wishes of past customers. Typically they are much more concerned about future customers. They will do what it takes to keep pace with what their competitors are doing.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The info was available, but it was not acknowledged in the least by BMW and was also debated very hotly on the forums. In addtion, BMW waited until the absolute 11th hour to finally confirm the E90 335i. Most everyone was convinced that only the E92/E93 would get the N54 turbo. Others thought that the E90 would get it, but not until a few model years later (like for the mid-life refresh). You really had to scour the forums and keep track of the posts made by the claimed insiders and study their track records. People were getting flamed left and right for even suggesting that BMW would release an E90 335i so early and "screw over" the 2006 330i owners.

In the end, many, many, MANY people were caught off guard by the E90 335i, and there were countless threads on E90post from pissed off 330i owners. I would guess that probably at least 25% of them have gone on to trade for a 335i by now (taking a large loss in the process). Bottom line is, IMHO, it is rare for an automanufacturer to base their products around the wishes of past customers. Typically they are much more concerned about future customers. They will do what it takes to keep pace with what their competitors are doing.

Exactly

[southlight]

Read that interview about DFI also. If I got the BMW guy (think it was Richter) right, he said that the next generation will get it. So first DFI car should be the next Generation (F10) M5 followed by the next generation M3. Maybe even the rumoured X6-M will be the first M car to get DFI. Imagine the V10 combined with a 5.000 lb car, that would need the consumption advantage of DFI really hard!
I can't decide if I'm more disappointed that the M3 didn't get DFI or more happy that this technology which is still making trouble isn't featured yet... If the 20 MPG figure turned out to be right while sporty driving (not track), I wouldn't care about DFI any more.

Best regards, south

[ruff]

Originally Posted by southlight

Read that interview about DFI also. If I got the BMW guy (think it was Richter) right, he said that the next generation will get it. So first DFI car should be the next Generation (F10) M5 followed by the next generation M3. Maybe even the rumoured X6-M will be the first M car to get DFI. Imagine the V10 combined with a 5.000 lb car, that would need the consumption advantage of DFI really hard!
I can't decide if I'm more disappointed that the M3 didn't get DFI or more happy that this technology which is still making trouble isn't featured yet... If the 20 MPG figure turned out to be right while sporty driving (not track), I wouldn't care about DFI any more.

Best regards, south

The RS4 with the older generation DFI gets terrible mileage. Yet to see a car with the newer generation DFI work with a high reving motor. Will be interesting to see if Porsche will be the first to break through this barrier.