Track forum general chit chat.

[romero1990]

Noob question.... signing up for HPDE... the event requires helmet... Can anyone recommend one for a person with big head. Back in the time, I cannot find a helmet fits my head in most bike shops or Walmart, etc.. I wonder how hard it is to get a big helmet for driving.

thanks

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by romero1990

Noob question.... signing up for HPDE... the event requires helmet... Can anyone recommend one for a person with big head. Back in the time, I cannot find a helmet fits my head in most bike shops or Walmart, etc.. I wonder how hard it is to get a big helmet for driving.

thanks

I got this one in a rush - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017BE3O8M/

It comes in 3XL size, lacks padding but it's decent overall. Not bad at $170 for a SA2015 rating. It is a tight fit in the car with stock seats.

[romero1990]

Originally Posted by Ximian

I got this one in a rush - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017BE3O8M/

It comes in 3XL size, lacks padding but it's decent overall. Not bad at $170 for a SA2015 rating. It is a tight fit in the car with stock seats.

awesome. thank you. I am not particularly tall. It could work

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by romero1990

Noob question.... signing up for HPDE... the event requires helmet... Can anyone recommend one for a person with big head. Back in the time, I cannot find a helmet fits my head in most bike shops or Walmart, etc.. I wonder how hard it is to get a big helmet for driving.

thanks

Try a bell sport. I have a big head and it fits mine fine. I put extra cheek pads in because my head is kinda skinny like an anvil.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

I'm on MCS 2WNR. Running 8 for rebound, and 7 for compression. Thinking I need to slow down rebound to make it less skittish? Maybe a little more toe in as well (+2mm currently).

Here's the video (fast-forward to 1:30)

Thanks for posting, interesting video. I don't like the uphill section at LRP at all which has similar vibes, feels like an all risk no reward corner to me. That track looks cool though otherwise! -2.2 seems like a lot of camber for the rear but I could be wrong there. Hope you manage to get the car buttoned up and back out there.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by romero1990

Noob question.... signing up for HPDE... the event requires helmet... Can anyone recommend one for a person with big head. Back in the time, I cannot find a helmet fits my head in most bike shops or Walmart, etc.. I wonder how hard it is to get a big helmet for driving.

thanks

You need to find a local auto racing store that stocks helmets so you can try something on, and be professionally fitted. Not everyone's heads are the same shape, nor are all helmets the same shape.

Buy what fits you best.

[Richbot]

a) glad you're ok b) I'm jealous of that facility it looks amazing c) sorry for the annoyingly long bleacher report but what else am I going to do today that's car related this energy has to come uot somewhere and you posted the video soooo

The 1:30 step-out was asking the rear tires to turn and brake at the same time, it stepped out while you were already threshold braking and turning the wheel, normal response, and you accidentally-on-purpose got the car into a pretty good attitude for corner-entry!

The off was, IMO (and like others said), a car placement issue and you got behind on your inputs. The "hit your marks" school cones are spot on for that sequence IMO, you want the car on the "back side" of both of those in that sequence. Lifting a bit earlier to take more right side track for the right-ish bend right before, cutting in from further outside with a more aggressive initial turn-in would have saved you there, IMO. This comment applies in general to your input, the car can take a lot more steering input on turn-in than you're giving it, and this pays dividends all the way through the corner as you get the car rotated sooner and can deal with any balance issues mid-corner rather than at track-out where you are out of road. You seem early in a few places leading up to the oopsies - early in , grass out, lolsob.

Smooth is fast is a damn lie, fast is fast, and fast is safe. Watch in-car from any good racing driver and the wheel moves a LOT, beacuse the front tire load is being managed constantly, the clock likes it and from outside it looks smooth, but inside it's not just one smooth rheostatic arc of input, you want the tires to be loaded smoothly, of course, but you can use jazz hands or a hammer so long as the loads the tires are seeing are not excessively peaky you're fine. Corrections should be like an Ali punch, pew pew, the front tire doesn't even see your hand move it just feels the punch

Also, take it from somebody who has cut a lot of grass, straighten the wheel, or even turn a bit TOWARD the grass to the point of intentionally easing the transition, if you're worried you're about to have an off! Often the only thing you injure is your pride going straight off UNLESS you have the wheel turned as the tires dig in, then wheeee smash. This is all part of the anticipatory driving that you will, if you have enough oopsies, eventually get good at - you already know what the input is going to do to the car's attitude before you make it, so when the natural consequence of that input happens, even if it's a slide or a bad placement, you're already 3 or 4 steps ahead of the car upstairs, so you aren't driving reactively, you're proactive and can manage anything that comes your way next even if it's grass everywhere

Also also, are you taking mid-session tire pressures, and when in the session, and how? Make sure you're taking hot pressures off a hot in-lap (rather than back in your paddock spot after a cool-down) to get a real idea of how much air you've got in the tires, once you get it once for a given track, you can write down your pressures and pretty much set and forget to get close to the *right* hot pressure. If its' not feeling stable on a staggered setup, I wonder about tire pressure. Michelins are flexy and therefore pressure-sensitive, and the flex can cause them to build heat and therefore pressure faster than other more track-oriented tires.

Good luck getting it put back together! That's a sucky feeling. I watched the video first though, and was expecting a lot more carnage, car looks 30 minutes worth of work from good to go to me! Sometimes, you just screw up and crash, even when you do everything else right.

[LeveragedTiger]

Originally Posted by Richbot

a) glad you're ok b) I'm jealous of that facility it looks amazing c) sorry for the annoyingly long bleacher report but what else am I going to do today that's car related this energy has to come uot somewhere and you posted the video soooo

The 1:30 step-out was asking the rear tires to turn and brake at the same time, it stepped out while you were already threshold braking and turning the wheel, normal response, and you accidentally-on-purpose got the car into a pretty good attitude for corner-entry!

The off was, IMO (and like others said), a car placement issue and you got behind on your inputs. The "hit your marks" school cones are spot on for that sequence IMO, you want the car on the "back side" of both of those in that sequence. Lifting a bit earlier to take more right side track for the right-ish bend right before, cutting in from further outside with a more aggressive initial turn-in would have saved you there, IMO. This comment applies in general to your input, the car can take a lot more steering input on turn-in than you're giving it, and this pays dividends all the way through the corner as you get the car rotated sooner and can deal with any balance issues mid-corner rather than at track-out where you are out of road. You seem early in a few places leading up to the oopsies - early in , grass out, lolsob.

Smooth is fast is a damn lie, fast is fast, and fast is safe. Watch in-car from any good racing driver and the wheel moves a LOT, beacuse the front tire load is being managed constantly, the clock likes it and from outside it looks smooth, but inside it's not just one smooth rheostatic arc of input, you want the tires to be loaded smoothly, of course, but you can use jazz hands or a hammer so long as the loads the tires are seeing are not excessively peaky you're fine. Corrections should be like an Ali punch, pew pew, the front tire doesn't even see your hand move it just feels the punch

Also, take it from somebody who has cut a lot of grass, straighten the wheel, or even turn a bit TOWARD the grass to the point of intentionally easing the transition, if you're worried you're about to have an off! Often the only thing you injure is your pride going straight off UNLESS you have the wheel turned as the tires dig in, then wheeee smash. This is all part of the anticipatory driving that you will, if you have enough oopsies, eventually get good at - you already know what the input is going to do to the car's attitude before you make it, so when the natural consequence of that input happens, even if it's a slide or a bad placement, you're already 3 or 4 steps ahead of the car upstairs, so you aren't driving reactively, you're proactive and can manage anything that comes your way next even if it's grass everywhere

Also also, are you taking mid-session tire pressures, and when in the session, and how? Make sure you're taking hot pressures off a hot in-lap (rather than back in your paddock spot after a cool-down) to get a real idea of how much air you've got in the tires, once you get it once for a given track, you can write down your pressures and pretty much set and forget to get close to the *right* hot pressure. If its' not feeling stable on a staggered setup, I wonder about tire pressure. Michelins are flexy and therefore pressure-sensitive, and the flex can cause them to build heat and therefore pressure faster than other more track-oriented tires.

Good luck getting it put back together! That's a sucky feeling. I watched the video first though, and was expecting a lot more carnage, car looks 30 minutes worth of work from good to go to me! Sometimes, you just screw up and crash, even when you do everything else right.

1) Thanks for the response - a bleacher report is exactly what I need!

2) I agree with all of the comments on the off. My brain thought I was straight, but history says otherwise.

3) To adjust my style for more aggressive turn-in, what does this look like from a throttle level perspective? A very light roll into throttle while I'm managing the front-end, and then progress to 100% on the way out?

Also, in many cases, I find that the front is already washing out on turn-in, through to the apex. Will the more aggressive turn-in get more rear rotation that will help compensate for that? As mentioned, the car does feel loose in the rear as-is, so I might need to work on setup more to confidently adjust my style.

4) I check pressures in the pits immediately after every session. I was at 36 hot with the Cup 2s.

5) Damage was: front control arm, front tension arm, and inner/outer tie rod. Wheels are bent but should be fixable. Usual body damage as well, but I think it's just paint and panel pulling.

Like I said, this was the first real off-track adventure in my short track-day career. Lots to learn and apply for next time!

[Kelse92]

Bought some rt660’s today. But they’re BRZ sized lol
Looking forward to trying them and reporting back.
My car is sadly getting pulled apart and is gonna sit for a few weeks after this weekend while the shocks get sent off to KW and I get the new coolers installed.

[roastbeef]

anyone have a decent solution for a solid work bench that folds away? i've been eyeballing this one on amazon, but i can't find any independent reviews.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B081FKXYGR...v_ov_lig_dp_it

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

My brain thought I was straight, but history says otherwise.

...does feel loose in the rear as-is, so I might need to work on setup more to confidently adjust my style.

Just keep getting out there to figure out what you like. Most people prefer a stable rear, something easy to hang on to.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by LeveragedTiger

1) Thanks for the response - a bleacher report is exactly what I need!

2) I agree with all of the comments on the off. My brain thought I was straight, but history says otherwise.

3) To adjust my style for more aggressive turn-in, what does this look like from a throttle level perspective? A very light roll into throttle while I'm managing the front-end, and then progress to 100% on the way out?

Also, in many cases, I find that the front is already washing out on turn-in, through to the apex. Will the more aggressive turn-in get more rear rotation that will help compensate for that? As mentioned, the car does feel loose in the rear as-is, so I might need to work on setup more to confidently adjust my style.

4) I check pressures in the pits immediately after every session. I was at 36 hot with the Cup 2s.

5) Damage was: front control arm, front tension arm, and inner/outer tie rod. Wheels are bent but should be fixable. Usual body damage as well, but I think it's just paint and panel pulling.

Like I said, this was the first real off-track adventure in my short track-day career. Lots to learn and apply for next time!

The idea of the more assertive turn-in is, partially, a question of line and a question of throttle application, and a qusetion of the car's attitude as it moves through the corner, can't really divorce them from eachother

You want to square off your entries a bit more, so that you turn in a bit later and more sharply, and as you're turning in you're leaning the car back onto the outside rear tire progressively feeding throttle in until you're WOT.

You have to get through the turn somehow, and just about all ways around require the same "amount" of turning, but the more turning you get done and over with at the entry phase of the corner, the less you have to do on the exit, where holding the wheel turned while you're also unloading the front tires with acceleration causes understeer and/or can cause a snap-oversteer "pushy-loose" situation when the suspension needs to mvoe over a bump or whatnot with too much steering lock dialed in. If the car feels loose, but is also understeering, this is often what's happening, with too much entry speed you will have too much lock dialed in to just make it through the corner at all, and then when you ask the rear tires to start accepting load from the powertrain, something has to give.

Ideally the wheel is near-straight from mid-corner to exit, not because you're not turning, but because the car is in a cornering attitude that doesn't need much steering input anymore, slip angle and physics and how hard you are pushing the throttle determine your track-out, rather than how hard the front tires are scrubbing against the pavement. Usually, you need to give up a bit of speed on entry to make this work. If it's washing out, you've tried to put 10lb of speed in a 5lb sack, entry understeer is almost always a too much entry speed problem, and then you're stuck managing understeer through the whole corner (lame, boring, forgettable) instead of oversteer through the corner (fun, attracts fame and fortune, looks rad in photos)

Which means you have to place the car a little differntly on turn-in, if you use the same lnie and turn in more aggressively, you are on the inside grass! Especially if you've slowed a bit more like I mentioned, so, instead of the traditional arc, picture every one of your lines a little bit like the Parabolica at Monza looks from overhead; rather than the arc of a circle it's more like the cross section of the leading edge of an airfoil - sharper near the lower surface of the wing, then gently widening arc as you track out. In autocross we say the idea is to get the inside tires on the "back side" of the apex/clipping point, because if that's where the car's pointed at the apex, tracking out at the limit of traction on the drive wheels is a piece of cake.

These are subtle differences but they matter a lot in a game of inches and tenths of a second. All this word salad is just a vocabulary to give yourself stuff to think about, in the end it's your appendages and rear end that have to do the things!

The car does not look loose in the video to me. It looks like your inputs can loosen it up, which is a good thing, you want to be able to *make* it move its tail, on your terms. I might go down in pressure in the rear a bit (2psi or so) if you're running 36 all around and see how it feels and how the tires look next time. With that much camber I'd think you'd be alright.

I second TSK's comments about rear rebound damping too, a little bit less might help, but I would also take some compression out. A little more compliance in the rear, in general, can help oversteer feel less abrupt, and if they're anything like my old MCS setup, the only thing you're losing with turning them down is speed of response, not quality of damping, it ought to still feel nicely controlled even turned down a bit. I actually ended up pretty close to my "street" settings on a "street" tire, like the RS3, I found turning them up much more than that just made the car skip over some imperfections as it asked too much of the tire and forced it to be a friction damper, and friction dampers suck

Thank you for coming to my ted talk lol

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Richbot

The idea of the more assertive turn-in is, partially, a question of line and a question of throttle application, and a qusetion of the car's attitude as it moves through the corner, can't really divorce them from eachother

You want to square off your entries a bit more, so that you turn in a bit later and more sharply, and as you're turning in you're leaning the car back onto the outside rear tire progressively feeding throttle in until you're WOT.

You have to get through the turn somehow, and just about all ways around require the same "amount" of turning, but the more turning you get done and over with at the entry phase of the corner, the less you have to do on the exit, where holding the wheel turned while you're also unloading the front tires with acceleration causes understeer and/or can cause a snap-oversteer "pushy-loose" situation when the suspension needs to mvoe over a bump or whatnot with too much steering lock dialed in.

Ideally the wheel is near-straight from mid-corner to exit, not because you're not turning, but because the car is in a cornering attitude that doesn't need steering input anymore, slip angle and physics and how hard you are pushing the throttle determine your track-out, rather than how hard the front tires are scrubbing against the pavement. Usually, you need to give up a bit of speed on entry to make this work.

Which means you have to place the car a little differntly on turn-in, if you use the same lnie and turn in more aggressively, you are on the inside grass! Especially if you've slowed a bit more like I mentioned, so, instead of the traditional arc, picture every one of your lines a little bit like the Parabolica at Monza looks from overhead; rather than the arc of a circle it's more like the cross section of the leading edge of an airfoil - sharper near the lower surface of the wing, then gently widening arc as you track out. In autocross we say the idea is to get the inside tires on the "back side" of the apex/clipping point, because if that's where the car's pointed at the apex, tracking out at the limit of traction on the drive wheels is a piece of cake.

These are subtle differences but they matter a lot.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk lol

TL;DR: you want to get back to full throttle as early as possible, so get your turning done quickly

[atopa2002]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

Bought some rt660’s today. But they’re BRZ sized lol
Looking forward to trying them and reporting back.
My car is sadly getting pulled apart and is gonna sit for a few weeks after this weekend while the shocks get sent off to KW and I get the new coolers installed.

What's the cost of rebuilding the KW?

[turbo_joe]

Who do you guys recommend for custom springs/rates/info for my KW Clubsports? Not exactly sure what I would need but looking to get stiffer springs this coming off season

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by atopa2002

What's the cost of rebuilding the KW?

I got emailed a price sheet PDF a couple of weeks ago and I'm going to send off my fronts next week.
It's $160/shock for the CS (includes oil, seals, guide, o-rings, bump stop, dust cover and top nut) plus whatever parts/labor additional is needed if it's more than just those things needed to fix them.
I know my rebound is messed up on one side so that's at least another $35 etc.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by turbo_joe

Who do you guys recommend for custom springs/rates/info for my KW Clubsports? Not exactly sure what I would need but looking to get stiffer springs this coming off season

Do some research around here and order springs from Bimmerworld etc.
I have the shorter Eibach springs for wheel clearance up front and 800lbs out back. I believe fsmtnbiker ran as much as 1100 on the rear of his Clubsports but that was with aero.

[turbo_joe]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

Do some research around here and order springs from Bimmerworld etc.
I have the shorter Eibach springs for wheel clearance up front and 800lbs out back. I believe fsmtnbiker ran as much as 1100 on the rear of his Clubsports but that was with aero.

Right on. I have semi aggressive aero on the car car currently and pulled the helper springs up front to get clearance for the 10.5" front wheels. I was thinking around 800-900 for the rear but not sure about the front.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by turbo_joe

Right on. I have semi aggressive aero on the car car currently and pulled the helper springs up front to get clearance for the 10.5" front wheels. I was thinking around 800-900 for the rear but not sure about the front.

I think the valving on the Clubsports can take 200lbs + or - difference from their stock rates pretty easily. Personally I ended up leaving my car a little softer up front and then added the big Hotchkiss sway bar.

[roastbeef]

Removed the sound deadening behind the rear seat side panels. 8lbs!

[turbo_joe]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

Removed the sound deadening behind the rear seat side panels. 8lbs!

I think I am gonna finally rip out the rest of my rear interior this winter. I have no back seat but didn't remove anything else yet

[//steve\\]

Who has gone from all stock suspension arms to the full SPL catalog and can comment on just how much of a difference they've noticed?