'09 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car - NO M3???

[footie]

Guys, you can argue till the cows come home but the fact is that the Cayman is a better handling car than the 911, there chief tester has went on record and admitted the fact so why continue to argue your point?

The 911 is more of a challenge, that has never been in dispute but it isn't the better balanced or better handling car.

[footie]

Originally Posted by graider

that sounds kinda bias no. a tt-rs over a zr1? i don't know about you guys, but i'm taking the zr1 over any of those car list in this mag even though i'm not a fan of the interior. assume i can afford one, lol

the zr1 sparks emotion and absolute power, but I need to get rid of the stock rims. the tt-rs, not sure what to think of it although you maybe right, it has the balance and handling. but no way it is a better handler than the zr1. we are talking about tt-rs vs enzo performance here.

Don't confuse out-right pace with overall better packaging, the ZR1 was the quickest which at the very least placed it close to the top in terms of out-right grip but that does not automatically mean it offers the best combination of handling balance, emotion, ride or usability. That may be the reason for it's lowly placement of 13th out 20 cars (I think).

[991GT3]

Originally Posted by footie

Guys, you can argue till the cows come home but the fact is that the Cayman is a better handling car than the 911, there chief tester has went on record and admitted the fact so why continue to argue your point?

The 911 is more of a challenge, that has never been in dispute but it isn't the better balanced or better handling car.

It's not a fact its an opinion of one guy (albeit a legend).
And his opinion, at least from what I've found, supports my perspective (ie the cayman is great but its underpowered).
So basically this is all semantics. If Porsche drops a 380bhp engine in the car I'd probably be on board with the rest of the Cayman lovers.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

Guys, you can argue till the cows come home but the fact is that the Cayman is a better handling car than the 911, there chief tester has went on record and admitted the fact so why continue to argue your point?

The 911 is more of a challenge, that has never been in dispute but it isn't the better balanced or better handling car.

I don't care what Walter said 2-3 years ago that got the Cayman fanatics all excited - if the engine and LSD, etc... Sure if this and if that..Yeah, *maybe*! It was his opinion, never a fact, and still not a fact today. End of story. I've tried to explain why the 911 handles better, but people just look at quotes, single lap times, and other random data that they find on the Internet and aren't sure how to interpret. Or they look for any data or quote to support their position, one to which they stick very hard to w/o having much driving experience to put in their own detailed comments...

As it is, the Cayman needs work to catch up. And not just a larger engine. If and when, we'll see. I'm all for it, as I've said, but it's not there today, so stop repeating stuff you don't seem to understand. Today, the 911 is still the better handling car. Please show me where Walter said different. I've made a detailed post (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=176), and can make another for 2 pages if anyone is interested. But people don't seem to care or have the experience with the 911 at the limit to understand what I'm talking about it seems, judging from the replies. It seems forums are just for people to make quick jabs and point to other quotes or links. Meaningful posts seem to be a waste...so I suppose I'm wasting my time.

Please post Walter's exact comments - maybe I missed something.

[urbo73]

Originally Posted by footie

Don't confuse out-right pace with overall better packaging, the ZR1 was the quickest which at the very least placed it close to the top in terms of out-right grip but that does not automatically mean it offers the best combination of handling balance, emotion, ride or usability. That may be the reason for it's lowly placement of 13th out 20 cars (I think).

From that list I can see why the Cayman S won overall. The top three are the only real contenders - the rest yikes I don't know.. I would have put the ZR-1 4th as very few drivers will get close to the limit which it where is falls apart.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Ive owned both 911s and the cayman S and they are both amazing to drive, but the 911 is def more exciting and more capable...this is why the GT3 is considered by so many to be the best out of the factory track car available. it is so versatile too. the GT3 will tear up a small, technical track, or a long track where straight line speed is comes more into play.

Exactly. Like I quoted before, GT3 gets awarded "the best handling car in production" trouncing Cayman S often (and trust me, the brute force of the GT3 is not the reason over Cayman S because the Z06 has substantially more brute force than the GT3, yet the GT3 reigns supreme) and heaped praises upon it of the "most exciting Porsche today". That is again, not because of the engine. It is the HANDLING! It is because of how perfectly balanced the suspension and chassis are for track racing.

Porsche upped their game and the new GT3 997.2 and RS 997.2 with 450 HP and only 2960 lbs of weight are going to make the 997.1 GT3 look like a snail. I believe Walter Rohrl has claimed the new GT3 RS is substantially faster than GT-R around Nurburgring.

[dawheat]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Exactly. Like I quoted before, GT3 gets awarded "the best handling car in production" trouncing Cayman S often (and trust me, the brute force of the GT3 is not the reason over Cayman S because the Z06 has substantially more brute force than the GT3, yet the GT3 reigns supreme) and heaped praises upon it of the "most exciting Porsche today". That is again, not because of the engine. It is the HANDLING! It is because of how perfectly balanced the suspension and chassis are for track racing.

I thought the Scuderia was the de facto track/handling production car king? An optimized mid-engined, light weight, and high revving car > An optimized rear-engined, light weight, and high revving car.

The GT3 is the pinnacle of the 911 platform and clearly a spectaular car, but I think any car enthusiast would be mesmerized if Porsche ever had the courage to do the same to the Cayman.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by dawheat

The GT3 is the pinnacle of the 911 platform and clearly a spectaular car, but I think any car enthusiast would be mesmerized if Porsche ever had the courage to do the same to the Cayman.

You have completely forgotten the Porsche Carrera GT was mid-ship rear wheel drive layout as well just like the Cayman and guess what?? the 997.1 GT2 has a faster laptime than the Carrera GT even with a 100+ HP deficit. I am sure the new GT3 997.2 would be faster than the Carrera GT.

[Bunkei]

I can't help but to be impressed by the domestics! If you take the Porsche and R8 out of the equation because of their uncommon (and less practical) Mid-Engine/RWD layout, and consider the more popular Front-Engine/RWD layout, two of the top three spots were held by Cadillac and Ford. Impressive indeed.

[footie]

The results of the Autoexpress 'Driver's car of the year'.

I'm only giving the top three as the whole twenty would only complicate the discussion.

1st : Audi R8v10
2nd : Porsche Cayman S
3rd : Porsche 997Mk2 GT3

I'm not 100% sure I would place the Cayman ahead of the GT3 but I do understand why they did it. The GT3 isn't that enjoyable on the road in comparison to how it feels on the track, it's very stiff and unless you are 100% committed every time you drive it there is not much pleasure to be had. The is very different to the Cayman, it's a hoot either on or off the track and the ride is exceptional for a car with it's caliber of handling.

The same is true for the R8, it's probably the best true supercar that one could enjoy everywhere that doesn't come with compromises. The reason I think they placed it first is that unlike the Cayman it IS a proper supercar yet it's as easy to drive as what the Cayman is, that kind of thing is generally unheard of.

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by Nawaaz

Every one of you guys are correct.

There's no need to be brought down just because a magazine did not include it in a certain category, especially in a category that the M3 always excels in.

Well said. +1

The lack of the GT3 and other models, especially when behind that Camaro and CTS-V, is absurd (for handling).

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by slipstream

I find Motor Trend to be an irrelevant car magazine for driving enthusiasts. The only reviews that have less useful information about driving are found in Consumer Reports.

That magazine has been around for over 50 years and you call it "irrelevant?"

[Archon]

Originally Posted by footie

The results of the Autoexpress 'Driver's car of the year'.

I'm only giving the top three as the whole twenty would only complicate the discussion.

1st : Audi R8v10
2nd : Porsche Cayman S
3rd : Porsche 997Mk2 GT3

I'm not 100% sure I would place the Cayman ahead of the GT3 but I do understand why they did it. The GT3 isn't that enjoyable on the road in comparison to how it feels on the track, it's very stiff and unless you are 100% committed every time you drive it there is not much pleasure to be had. The is very different to the Cayman, it's a hoot either on or off the track and the ride is exceptional for a car with it's caliber of handling.

The same is true for the R8, it's probably the best true supercar that one could enjoy everywhere that doesn't come with compromises. The reason I think they placed it first is that unlike the Cayman it IS a proper supercar yet it's as easy to drive as what the Cayman is, that kind of thing is generally unheard of.

Sound reasoning but the whole story does complicate things

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...ance_car_2008/

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carrevi...ance_car_2009/

Honestly, the M3 was there in 4th place in 2008 and yet not there at all in 2009. In that group for 2009, it does belong there above many of the cars listed. I guess they have to hype up what's new but there are some repeats in the list from 2008 to 2009.

With anything that's based on opinions it's hard to take it seriously. Example, in 2008. The R8 v8 isn't even listed.....and yet the winner of 2009 is the v10 version. I'm thinking the 2008 R8 should at least be there some where in 2008. It's this kind of random placement that makes their opinion as about as good as anyone's here.

my .02

[BMW-driver]

So in 2008 a 'girly' Mini Cooper S, ranks above the mighty M3 ......

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

So in 2008 a 'girly' Mini Cooper S, ranks above the mighty M3 ......

When you're comparing cars, you're probably not going to look for new or 'significantly' (a term they apply to their convenience) revised cars only, making those stupid car-of-the-year 'contests' as relevant as taking marital advice from Mark Sanford .

All car magazines want to keep all their sponsors happy. With that blatant conflict of interest, their objectivity goes down the toilet IMO. The stupid conditions they put (many very vague on purpose) are laughable. On the other hand, an M3 is not going to win every contest, but we know it's the best bang for the buck if you want SOPHISTICATED performance .

[M3_WC]

No surprise the M3 isn't on the list. It is no longer a pure drivers car.

[Nawaaz]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

No surprise the M3 isn't on the list. It is no longer a pure drivers car.

You mean the current M3 is not a greater driver's car than at least the the new Camaro SS, CTS-V, Jaguar XFR, Shelby GT500??

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Nawaaz

You mean the current M3 is not a greater driver's car than at least the the new Camaro SS, CTS-V, Jaguar XFR, Shelby GT500??

It is, but there are many many cars produced today that are more of a drivers car. Even the E46 M3 is more of a drivers car than the current gen M3. I agree though that list does have some questionable cars on it.

[Nawaaz]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

It is, but there are many many cars produced today that are more of a drivers car. Even the E46 M3 is more of a drivers car than the current gen M3. I agree though that list does have some questionable cars on it.

Most performance cars produced today compared to the previous generations, are 'fattened up ' because of safety requirements, and customers' demands for more luxury and comfort for day to day driving.

This in turn, upsets driving purists all over, yet satisfies the bulk of the customers that help keep the sales going for auto manufacturers.

With this said, I still believe the current M3 is a very good driver's car, especially when you compare it to its competition, such as the IS F, C63, and RS4. However, I'd have to tip my hat to my previous Evo IX for providing a more RAW driving experience than the M3 I have today.

[DakarE36]

Originally Posted by 997GT3

The list is stupid. No 911, no M3, no GTR but instead a tiny Miata, a piggish CTS-V, a mustang and a Camaro.

Most of those cars are nice but they're not in the same handling league (except the ZR1 and R8) as a 911, M3, or GTR.

The CTS-V absolutely is in the same league (at least as the m3), and you should know this (even if your not a fan) as a knowledgeable car fan. If you dont believe me, believe the reviews, and beleive the m3 beating track times (whipped the snot out of the m3 around the ring).

[bobbyd1961]

motortrend? there still around ? i thought they went out of business in 1984 when they picked the 84 vette as car of the year.
hey i bought that brand new 84 vette and it was a piece of crap in fact dubbed as the worst vette ever made.
NICE PICK and what makes you think that any pick you make has credibility?

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

No surprise the M3 isn't on the list. It is no longer a pure drivers car.

Ok everyone - read BOTH the October 2008 and October 2009 issues of Motor Trend - obviously they weren't going to pick the exact same cars every year - that wouldn't sell as many magazines - but look at a professional like Pobst's rankings as well as the data in both magazines - 102.943 lap time for M3 on Leguna Seca and 2nd place subjective rating by a professional driver (Pobst) as reported in the October 2008 issue. Compares very favorably to a slightly slower ranking for the current 320 hp Cayman S (at 103 seconds flat on Leguna Seca), albeit higher ranking for fun/handling factor. Pobst's comments about the M3 in the October 2008 issue run 100% contrary to the M3 no longer being a "pure drivers car," especially considering he is a professional race car driver.