ZCP vs 6MT

[SoCalRPM]

Guys and gals, let's not go crazy on this thread. We're all friends and family here. Some like 6MT. Some like DCT. Some prefer the variation that they don't currently have and vice versa. But we all love M cars. Let's move on.

[Transfer]

Silly topic but I'll bite. Enthusiasts everywhere continue to convince themselves that the E9x M3 6MT is worth its weight in gold but the reality is that it is a clunky unit with bad ratios. I suppose to the resale market the 6MT is worth more than ZCP but not to me. Consider also that in the future less people will actually know how to drive manual transmissions although I'm not sure that makes a difference for resale.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Shifting gears with dct does seem pointless when dct owners say the auto mode is so good. Even if it wasn’t so good, the car can move without flapping paddles.

You talk like flapping paddles is a chore or undesireable or something. And who says the auto mode is good? It sucks and is only good for warming up the car, lazy driving with the wife or grandma, and sitting in traffic. If you like to drive between 1500-4000 RPMs with smooth shifts then I guess the auto mode is your bag but if you want to use the powerband, manual shift all other times.

[UPSROD]

And, if it is so fantastic, why does everybody change or modify the E9X 6 speed shifter?

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Shifting gears with dct does seem pointless when dct owners say the auto mode is so good. Even if it wasn’t so good, the car can move without flapping paddles.

The point of manually shifting a DCT is to be in total control of both rpm and gear selection - exactly like a manual - except that you can always keep your left foot planted against dead pedal for maximum bracing, and, keep both hands on the wheel at all times. These last two points are THE true benefit of the single/dual clutch boxes.....the faster shift times are a very distant second. Further, the DCTs ratios are vastly better suited to this motors very narrow top end. Finally, it's a shirt ratio box, with 2 extra gears stuffed into the same ratio spread, given you a much higher resolution of rpm control for a given road speed.

So, we can see here objectively, that there are numerous practical benefits to the DCT well beyond what your shortsighted nature allows you to see

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

The point of manually shifting a DCT is to be in total control of both rpm and gear selection - exactly like a manual - except that you can always keep your left foot planted against dead pedal for maximum bracing, and, keep both hands on the wheel at all times. These last two points are THE true benefit of the single/dual clutch boxes.....the faster shift times are a very distant second. Further, the DCTs ratios are vastly better suited to this motors very narrow top end. Finally, it's a shirt ratio box, with 2 extra gears stuffed into the same ratio spread, given you a much higher resolution of rpm control for a given road speed.

So, we can see here objectively, that there are numerous practical benefits to the DCT well beyond what your shortsighted nature allows you to see

Not short sighted. Just totally disinterested in an automatic, high powered sporty car.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Not short sighted. Just ignorant and prideful.

Fixed.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Fixed.

You were fixed too when you went automatic.

Eric the Eunuch.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

Not short sighted. Just totally disinterested in an automatic, high powered sporty car.

I agree. I would also like to point out some misconceptions that have been posted. First, the issue with the S65 is its paucity of torque, and not any narrowness in the powerband. The S65 reaches peak torque at 3,900 rpm and peak power at 8,300 rpm, giving it a useable powerband of 4,400 rpm. That is not narrow. The real issue is that you need to actually rev the engine beyond 3,900 rpm to get any real power, something few nonenthusiasts are willing to do regularly. Second, the DSG does not have 2 more gears than the 6MT. Just 1 additional cog. Does the additional cog make a difference? Of course, just as does the faster shift time. On the track that difference is one between a podium finish and simply going home empty handed, but on public roads the difference is all but irrelevant. Those of us who drive 6MTs prefer the added driver involvement and greater skill required over faster lap times on tracks we rarely visit.

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by DSilk

I agree. I would also like to point out some misconceptions that have been posted. First, the issue with the S65 is its paucity of torque, and not any narrowness in the powerband. The S65 reaches peak torque at 3,900 rpm and peak power at 8,300 rpm, giving it a useable powerband of 4,400 rpm. That is not narrow. The real issue is that you need to actually rev the engine beyond 3,900 rpm to get any real power, something few nonenthusiasts are willing to do regularly. Second, the DSG does not have 2 more gears than the 6MT. Just 1 additional cog. Does the additional cog make a difference? Of course, just as does the faster shift time. On the track that difference is one between a podium finish and simply going home empty handed, but on public roads the difference is all but irrelevant. Those of us who drive 6MTs prefer the added driver involvement and greater skill required over faster lap times on tracks we rarely visit.

No skill required. It takes skill to learn how to become a medic and help others. You have to be skilled to become a teacher. Any 10 year old kid living on a farm can drive a manual gear box. Manuals are awesome but zero skill needed to apply, just a want and an hour of your time behind the wheel.

[DSilk]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

No skill required. It takes skill to learn how to become a medic and help others. You have to be skilled to become a teacher. Any 10 year old kid living on a farm can drive a manual gear box. Manuals are awesome but zero skill needed to apply, just a want and an hour of your time behind the wheel.

If you have to learn how to do it it is a skill. Moreover, there is a difference between simply doing something and doing it well.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by DSilk

I agree. I would also like to point out some misconceptions that have been posted. First, the issue with the S65 is its paucity of torque, and not any narrowness in the powerband. The S65 reaches peak torque at 3,900 rpm and peak power at 8,300 rpm, giving it a useable powerband of 4,400 rpm. That is not narrow. The real issue is that you need to actually rev the engine beyond 3,900 rpm to get any real power, something few nonenthusiasts are willing to do regularly. Second, the DSG does not have 2 more gears than the 6MT. Just 1 additional cog. Does the additional cog make a difference? Of course, just as does the faster shift time. On the track that difference is one between a podium finish and simply going home empty handed, but on public roads the difference is all but irrelevant. Those of us who drive 6MTs prefer the added driver involvement and greater skill required over faster lap times on tracks we rarely visit.

Sigh, we've been down this path before.

The torque may peak at 3900 (it's got plenty here) but it dips between 4 and 6k (it's weak here), coming on strong again around 6.5k rpm. Ideally, the motor wants to be above ~6.5k at all times for any real acceleration.

This is not possible in a 6MT as the ratios are spread too wide - during redline upshift the rpm drops below the "ideal" rpm window. I promise you - take your car out and go WOT at 5900rpm and compare that to going WOT at 6.5k rpm. There is a HUGE difference in engine response. The motor's "sweet spot" is very narrow/peaky in stock form.

The DCT addresses this with its much closer ratios (and, shorter gears, too). There are in FACT two extra gears in the same ratio spread:

DCT: 7th gear is 1:1
6MT: 5th gear is 1:1

This allows for a much smaller rpm drop between gears, shorter gears, and thus much more acceleration and resolution. These are not "misconceptions". I drive a 6MT. I redline my car multiple times daily. The DCT is geared much better for the S65. End of story. Note that I'm NOT talking about which one is more fun, more engaging, requires more skill, etc. - those are subjective. I'm talking purely objective here.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by Transfer

If you like to drive between 1500-4000 RPMs with smooth shifts then I guess the auto mode is your bag but if you want to use the powerband, manual shift all other times.

If we're being honest, isn't that like 90% of driving for most of us? It is for me.

High RPM are reserved for the occasional empty on-ramp pull, track day, or wide open back road. All of those circumstances are not as common as I'd like. Otherwise, I'm not trying to turn heads as I scream down public roads using the upper end of the powerband. That's how I manage to maintain a clean driving record.

Originally Posted by UPSROD

And, if it is so fantastic, why does everybody change or modify the E9X 6 speed shifter?

For the same reason everyone gets a DCT tune, which as far as I can tell is much more common than an aftermarket shifter. It's not necessary, but it's a cheap and easy improvement with very satisfying results.

Originally Posted by DSilk

If you have to learn how to do it it is a skill. Moreover, there is a difference between simply doing something and doing it well.

I've lost track of how many people have told me they know how to drive manual and then when I ride with them I'm facepalming the entire time.

[carenthuziast]

Originally Posted by EricSMG

Sigh, blah, blah, blah....sigh... I'm talking purely objective here...blah, blah, blah....

ref:

Originally Posted by DSilk

...but on public roads the difference is all but irrelevant. Those of us who drive 6MTs prefer the added driver involvement and greater skill required over faster lap times on tracks we rarely visit.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

No skill required. It takes skill to learn how to become a medic and help others. You have to be skilled to become a teacher. Any 10 year old kid living on a farm can drive a manual gear box. Manuals are awesome but zero skill needed to apply, just a want and an hour of your time behind the wheel.

Are you arguing that a 10 year old living on a farm can spend an hour learning manual to attain the same manual driving skill level as a professional race car driver? Come on BOOF, I know you know better than that so I have to assume you're being facetious.

There absolutely is a level of skill and nuance to driving manual well. I've been practicing for over a decade and am still not perfect. Getting better at it with time and experience is half the fun!

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

Are you arguing that a 10 year old living on a farm can spend an hour learning manual to attain the same manual driving skill level as a professional race car driver? Come on BOOF, I know you know better than that so I have to assume you're being facetious.

There absolutely is a level of skill and nuance to driving manual well. I've been practicing for over a decade and am still not perfect. Getting better at it with time and experience is half the fun!

Absolutely not. I'm speaking about DRIVING a manual vehicle. How did any of this turn into race car drivers? Driving a manual on the street takes as much skill as it does steering one. And to anyone claiming that there is some special skill about driving a manual M3, I can't help you.

[wyatth]

This debate will never end.
6MT is a skill to be learned, but nobody is born driving automatics anyway. I won't pretend that DCT is hard to learn, but to get the most out of it, one needs to understand a manual anyway.
So you want to perfect your shifting, great. Those with DCT can perfect other driving skills. Or have other fun with the car since it's actually moving at a decent rate of speed.
I get it. I had a 6MT E46M for 6 years, my first cars were S2000s, etc. I will always be a fan of the 6MT and will always respect a 6MT car. I will never hate on someone's choice for getting a 6MT in this car, but this chassis/engine are not suited to the 6MT, IMO, for the reasons Eric points out.
But it's nonsense for 6MT owner to claim the DCT cars are just another automatic and to claim some superiority. I guess you'd pass on the PDK GT3s, Scuderias/Aperta, any Mac, etc.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Absolutely not. I'm speaking about DRIVING a manual vehicle. How did any of this turn into race car drivers? Driving a manual on the street takes as much skill as it does steering one. And to anyone claiming that there is some special skill about driving a manual M3, I can't help you.

It didn't turn into race cars drivers. "Race car drivers" were used to illustrate the opposite extreme of 10 year old farm kids.

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

It didn't turn into race cars drivers. "Race car drivers" were used to illustrate the opposite extreme of 10 year old farm kids.

I understand your reference. I am suggesting that all anyone needs to do to drive a manual is to want to drive one, no special skills needed to apply.

[EricSMG]

Originally Posted by carenthuziast

ref:

Yep, it's irrelevant except for every time you hit the gas pedal.

Arguing that shorting gear spacing, smaller rpm drops and shorter overall gear ratios are irrelevant on the street is complete and utter bullshit. This has nothing to do with rowing your own gears - this is purely mechanical.

Anything that will make the car accelerate with more urgency for a given amount of throttle will make the car more "fun" every time you drive it. That is to say, that the DCT will make the car more fun in some ways and less fun in others. Since you cannot have both the superior gearing AND the driver involvement in one package, you must decide what tradeoff you're willing to make.

[wyatth]

And it's why I think a lower FD (3.45?) would be awesome in this car. This platform is a hoot but it needs all the gearing and torque multiplying it can get.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Absolutely not. I'm speaking about DRIVING a manual vehicle. How did any of this turn into race car drivers? Driving a manual on the street takes as much skill as it does steering one. And to anyone claiming that there is some special skill about driving a manual M3, I can't help you.

Can you even heel-toe bro?