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      11-07-2014, 12:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
You may be right, I have no clue about running any BMW on track and longevity issues. However, I think what OP is trying to convey as early impressions is that after few initial track time he has spent, the car seems to be operating well and compared to his experience with the e92, the F8x has thus far performed to his expectations or may be even better.
.
Agreed. The F8x and E9x generations make for great DE/street combination do everything track cars. But I think they are no longer the super race car conversion platforms like previous generations. Too big and heavy with FI adding another element of complication. I'd love to see BMW make something in the future that fits the ultimate race car conversion profile.
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      11-07-2014, 04:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
Now there are several other issues that constant tracking of the new M3/4 will reveal about BMW turbos. I can go into them if you're interested. Topics such as intake/exhaust valve carbon build up from direct injection, BMW turbo, HPFP, Injector, and vanos reliability, and the list goes on.
You may be right, I have no clue about running any BMW on track and longevity issues. However, I think what OP is trying to convey as early impressions is that after few initial track time he has spent, the car seems to be operating well and compared to his experience with the e92, the F8x has thus far performed to his expectations or may be even better.

I have had the impression that BMWs have had overheating issues at the track, and they are not designed of any sort of track use out of the factory, needing some level of modifications to this and that, although it is arguably the wrong impression. Nevertheless, the F8x seems to be better suited for light to moderate track use based on early reports, but time will tell.

Well done CanAutM3 with the review, hopefully the car will hold well to track use.
Well said. No modern BMW is totally "track ready" although the M3 is as close as you can get. But if BMW made a track ready car then people would complain that it's too loud and rides too rough.
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      11-08-2014, 08:44 PM   #25
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The F8x M3/4 clearly fixed a few the issues that plagued the N54/N55 engine setup. Many questioned my BMW Motorsport didnt keep FI engine in their 2014 DTM car. I'll be more interested on seeing how these cars behave after 20-30k which is where I started to have heating issues in my 135. The bigger test of reliability under hard driven 100F weather track condition will be when owners start modding these cars.

Overall, an excellent review. Thanks OP
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      11-09-2014, 08:10 AM   #26
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Many questioned my BMW Motorsport didnt keep FI engine in their 2014 DTM car. I
The answer to that is quite simple: REGULATIONS

BTW, DTM will be going to 4 cylinder 2 liter turbo engines in 2017 .
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      11-09-2014, 04:31 PM   #27
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The answer to that is quite simple: REGULATIONS

BTW, DTM will be going to 4 cylinder 2 liter turbo engines in 2017 .
You absolutely accurate on that
Still can't wait to see the performance of these engines at 20-40k mark, but totally appreciate the effort and time in giving us good initial reviews
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      11-09-2014, 04:50 PM   #28
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I hate to be on the "negative" team but I too know of 4 friends on the east and west coast that had an e9x M that tracked switched to the F8x and sold them in a few weeks and yes I drove my friends cars cause we've had this convo and I agree. A lot of them complained about overheating issues and the distance from "feeling" versus what was in the e9x. Each one of them admits the best was the e46M and that the E9xM was further from that but say the F8x is even further.

On top of all this Road and Track and Car and Driver Magazine evaluations say the F8xM is a great muscle car. Which is funny my track buddies said basically the same.
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      11-09-2014, 06:45 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by knolow View Post
Each one of them admits the best was the e46M and that the E9xM was further from that but say the F8x is even further.

On top of all this Road and Track and Car and Driver Magazine evaluations say the F8xM is a great muscle car. Which is funny my track buddies said basically the same.
I would say the E9X M3 beats the crap out of an E46 M3. I own both and I've driven both a lot on the street and track. The E9X M3 is far more tossable and controllable at the limit. The E46M3 just punishes you with terminal understeer and then some pretty hairy oversteer. The E9X M3 rewards you with smiles as you rotate the car under throttle.

I get better lap times in my relatively stock E90 M3 (Non-EDC,DCT, Dinan Stage II, GC camber plates, 275s on all 4 corners) vs my lightened and modded E46 M3 (stock power). Both on 275 NT01s. My corner speeds are a little lower in my E9X M3 but not by much.

I think a lot of people don't like how much more willing the back end will come around in an E9X and most are more comfortable with the E46 where it takes some idiocy to make it oversteer. The biggest difference is the E9X is far more controllable beyond its traction limits than the E46. The E9X is a drift machine! I think the F8X will be more of the same. The E46 is much more of a handful once the rear tires break loose. Its more like work than fun in the E46. Its just FUN in the E9X!

If cooling is a problem, I'm sure BMW will address it over the production run.
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      11-09-2014, 07:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
I would say the E9X M3 beats the crap out of an E46 M3. I own both and I've driven both a lot on the street and track. The E9X M3 is far more tossable and controllable at the limit. The E46M3 just punishes you with terminal understeer and then some pretty hairy oversteer. The E9X M3 rewards you with smiles as you rotate the car under throttle.

I get better lap times in my relatively stock E90 M3 (Non-EDC,DCT, Dinan Stage II, GC camber plates, 275s on all 4 corners) vs my lightened and modded E46 M3 (stock power). Both on 275 NT01s. My corner speeds are a little lower in my E9X M3 but not by much.

I think a lot of people don't like how much more willing the back end will come around in an E9X and most are more comfortable with the E46 where it takes some idiocy to make it oversteer. The biggest difference is the E9X is far more controllable beyond its traction limits than the E46. The E9X is a drift machine! I think the F8X will be more of the same. The E46 is much more of a handful once the rear tires break loose. Its more like work than fun in the E46. Its just FUN in the E9X!

If cooling is a problem, I'm sure BMW will address it over the production run.
Words of wisdom and experience

My impressions of the E46 and E92 are eerily similar to yours, having owned and tracked an E46 for 7 years and an E92 for 6. While I truly loved my E46, the E92 was better in all areas, especially the chassis. The E46 was plagued with pretty bad understeer and needed a hell of a lot of camber up front to dial it out. It was trickier to get to oversteer and once you did, you needed to be extra careful to avoid a bad tank slapper. The E92 was much smoother in that respect, with the added power, it was much easier to kick the tail out and once there, it was very easy to control and sustain a drift and then bring it back in line smoothly. The extra weight of the E92 over the E46 could be felt, but the car did not feel any bigger.

I am still getting accustomed to the F82, but so far I cannot say I like it better than my E92; but I do like it a lot. The chassis feels nimble and light, the engine is torquey and responsive but the car feels BIG. Going from the E46 to the E92, I just got more of what I liked. The F82 is different from the E92 in so many respects that it does not feel like an evolution of a good formula but more like a brand new experience; so it takes a little longer to get accustomed and comfortable.
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      11-11-2014, 01:39 PM   #31
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Thank you for posting your experience

I am seriously considering adding a F80 to the stable as I don't want to track my E92. If I end up tracking it I'll blame bigjae and kaiv! ha

I am anxious to see track day experiences with square 275 track rubber, track pads and camber plates.
The kind of heat the engine/brakes have to dissipate vary wildly between a 'I'm taking my stock car to the track' to a 'my car is in track mode' users.

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      11-12-2014, 04:47 AM   #32
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I just made the switch to dedicated track car (for safety and race group)
and bought an e46 fully prepped race car. The previous owner is a suspension
guru engineer (previously worked with Turner for their race team) and he
setup the car with the bomb Moton suspension, the car has incredible balance.
The limit window is huge with a faster reaction time to inputs all around.
I'm still getting used to the differences and loving it! Easily controlled 4 wheel
slip with nimble lightness that make my E90 feel like a pig. The suspension is
key. Stock for stock I agree about what was said between e46 and E9x, but I
think the e46 chassis makes for much better track car with the right suspension
and setup. Then again I've never driven a fully prepped E9x race car, but from
what I've been told it's hard to get the weight down and I think size does
matter.
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      11-12-2014, 01:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMagi
I just made the switch to dedicated track car (for safety and race group)
and bought an e46 fully prepped race car. The previous owner is a suspension
guru engineer (previously worked with Turner for their race team) and he
setup the car with the bomb Moton suspension, the car has incredible balance.
The limit window is huge with a faster reaction time to inputs all around.
I'm still getting used to the differences and loving it! Easily controlled 4 wheel
slip with nimble lightness that make my E90 feel like a pig. The suspension is
key. Stock for stock I agree about what was said between e46 and E9x, but I
think the e46 chassis makes for much better track car with the right suspension
and setup. Then again I've never driven a fully prepped E9x race car, but from
what I've been told it's hard to get the weight down and I think size does
matter.
Look at how long it took for the E46 to get developed? I don't anyone has really scratched the surface with the E9X yet. Almost all of the E9X M3s I've seen on the track are street cars with bolt ons that some retailer said was better because it's aftermarket.
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      11-13-2014, 01:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Look at how long it took for the E46 to get developed? I don't anyone has really scratched the surface with the E9X yet. Almost all of the E9X M3s I've seen on the track are street cars with bolt ons that some retailer said was better because it's aftermarket.
True I haven't seen any and have heard about one. I would have been
tempted to convert my E90 were it not for the heat issues I was having.
One tech I know built a world challenge e9x and they had same heat issue
with NA motor, they tried bigger radiator and intercooler and still had heat
problem wringing out the S65. Not sure if the next owner of the car sorted
it out. I wonder what Turner did for their e9x race cars...
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      11-13-2014, 01:22 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AxisMagi
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjae1976 View Post
Look at how long it took for the E46 to get developed? I don't anyone has really scratched the surface with the E9X yet. Almost all of the E9X M3s I've seen on the track are street cars with bolt ons that some retailer said was better because it's aftermarket.
True I haven't seen any and have heard about one. I would have been
tempted to convert my E90 were it not for the heat issues I was having.
One tech I know built a world challenge e9x and they had same heat issue
with NA motor, they tried bigger radiator and intercooler and still had heat
problem wringing out the S65. Not sure if the next owner of the car sorted
it out. I wonder what Turner did for their e9x race cars...
Stock, I really don't have an issue unless it's 100 degrees out. You can't beat on it forever but not too bad either. Running it up to 8400rpm every shift doesn't help. IMO, not much to be had above 8k rpm anyway.
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      11-13-2014, 01:32 PM   #36
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I did a test last year with the GT3 (granted it is different car/engine): On one of the tracks that I visit often (Summit Point), on the front straight, we shift from 3rd to 4th and to 5th before braking for turn 1. I used to short shift from 4th to 5th right around 8K RPM normally. On multiple sessions and different days (low and high temps), I ran it to 8500 RPM before shifting to 5th. My data logger recorded, in each of the cases, 6 to 8 mph higher speed before braking and 0.2 to 0.3 lower times for the straight

My point is that sometime we assume there isn't much to be had with an NA engine up top, but this was a surprising finding for me.
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      11-13-2014, 02:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I did a test last year with the GT3 (granted it is different car/engine): On one of the tracks that I visit often (Summit Point), on the front straight, we shift from 3rd to 4th and to 5th before braking for turn 1. I used to short shift from 4th to 5th right around 8K RPM normally. On multiple sessions and different days (low and high temps), I ran it to 8500 RPM before shifting to 5th. My data logger recorded, in each of the cases, 6 to 8 mph higher speed before braking and 0.2 to 0.3 lower times for the straight

My point is that sometime we assume there isn't much to be had with an NA engine up top, but this was a surprising finding for me.
+1

That is exactly why I had my rev limit incresed to 8600rpm, to better exploit the power curve. From data logs, I also saw better terminal speed when I shifted at 8500~8600.

However, if I abused of the extra RPM too much, I would get a sluggish DCT and the engine oil temperature would creep on the high side. So I only used it when I had a clean hot lap or trying to catch someone.
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      11-13-2014, 05:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS
I did a test last year with the GT3 (granted it is different car/engine): On one of the tracks that I visit often (Summit Point), on the front straight, we shift from 3rd to 4th and to 5th before braking for turn 1. I used to short shift from 4th to 5th right around 8K RPM normally. On multiple sessions and different days (low and high temps), I ran it to 8500 RPM before shifting to 5th. My data logger recorded, in each of the cases, 6 to 8 mph higher speed before braking and 0.2 to 0.3 lower times for the straight

My point is that sometime we assume there isn't much to be had with an NA engine up top, but this was a surprising finding for me.
Well...for HPDE'ers...if you're running the car to the max every session and then your engine blows, giving that part of a second away seems like a good idea.
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      11-13-2014, 08:41 PM   #39
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Well...for HPDE'ers...if you're running the car to the max every session and then your engine blows, giving that part of a second away seems like a good idea.
That's what I normally think as well, but the Mezger has proved to be stronger than my beliefs I wouldn't do it with a DFI engine though
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      11-13-2014, 08:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FTS View Post
I did a test last year with the GT3 (granted it is different car/engine): On one of the tracks that I visit often (Summit Point), on the front straight, we shift from 3rd to 4th and to 5th before braking for turn 1. I used to short shift from 4th to 5th right around 8K RPM normally. On multiple sessions and different days (low and high temps), I ran it to 8500 RPM before shifting to 5th. My data logger recorded, in each of the cases, 6 to 8 mph higher speed before braking and 0.2 to 0.3 lower times for the straight

My point is that sometime we assume there isn't much to be had with an NA engine up top, but this was a surprising finding for me.
Its fact that sometimes holding the car to the limiter and bouncing the limiter for a second can be quicker than shifting the extra gear.
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      11-22-2014, 01:11 PM   #41
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I have found using my last dyno findings for shifting reference (8-8.2K), also adjusted the shift light for precision. It made quite a difference not on my end of front straight at most tracks, but corner exit speed if my splip angle is spot-on as well.
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      11-22-2014, 01:27 PM   #42
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Its fact that sometimes holding the car to the limiter and bouncing the limiter for a second can be quicker than shifting the extra gear.
That is true with a MT, but not the case with DCT
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      11-22-2014, 01:29 PM   #43
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I have found using my last dyno findings for shifting reference (8-8.2K), also adjusted the shift light for precision. It made quite a difference not on my end of front straight at most tracks, but corner exit speed if my splip angle is spot-on as well.
Be wary what dyno data you use. Chassis inertia dynos tend to increase the error as the speed increases due to drivetrain and wheel inertia. The RPM of the power peak will always show lower on such dynos.
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      11-23-2014, 07:02 PM   #44
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Nice write up and review...looking at an F80 in a couple years, in addition to the e90 of course. Look forward to seeing some F80/82's out there next year. Enjoy the sweet ride
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