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      05-09-2021, 08:27 AM   #2927
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So you need to remember that cops are people, and like people they have pet peeves. I could frankly care less about tons of infractions, they often seem stupid to me. I'd lay the charge if you pissed me off but wouldn't hunt for it. Then there was other things that I would go after that pissed me off.

Some traffic guys just love those pissy little regulations for stuff like the window stickers. It's called human nature, cops are human.....
I lay it more on Bloomberg, who wanted them to collect as much as they could. And then on the legislators who couldn't just write, "Put both them stickers in the lower left corner" or such.
Some of the parking police are fine. The one we have now won't ticket within 5 minutes of the time limit. But once I got a ticket for 1 minute before time, while standing by my trunk.
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      05-09-2021, 08:47 AM   #2928
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I lay it more on Bloomberg, who wanted them to collect as much as they could. And then on the legislators who couldn't just write, "Put both them stickers in the lower left corner" or such.
Some of the parking police are fine. The one we have now won't ticket within 5 minutes of the time limit. But once I got a ticket for 1 minute before time, while standing by my trunk.
Parking tags are generally the big revenue generator for cities.
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      05-09-2021, 09:07 AM   #2929
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Some traffic guys just love those pissy little regulations for stuff like the window stickers. It's called human nature, cops are human.....
I had an old-timer detective from our small town's police department at our house taking a property damage accident report on Friday, and gave him a tip about something that he might want to be on the watch for in our neighborhood if they are having a slow day. He said that he would pass it along to the new guys on the night shift, since they were always looking for excitement.....
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      05-09-2021, 09:18 AM   #2930
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So I get your point, but rules are rules and the law is the law.

When we still had paper drivers licenses there was an offence for failing to sign it in ink. That ticket was saved for special people.
Which is why I’ve favored a requirement that all laws sunset after 20 years (maximum), and must be individually voted to reinstate at that time (no omnibus). Would hopefully force state/federal legislators to actually consider what laws are needed, and let the rest go.

Enforcement of petty stuff, while “the law”, is very annoying and frankly intrusive to people who are mostly law abiding (like minor speeders). I really don’t like police using those laws, and check points, to try to get the baddies. To me is it harassing and intimidating 99 to catch 1, and contributes to ill feeling toward both police and the law.
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      05-09-2021, 09:20 AM   #2931
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...is having an upside down plate enough reason to pull someone over? Asking for a potential friend.
I was just going to make a post asking why, but I realized the privacy benefit that might result with a certain piece of invasive tracking technology that is assaulting our personal liberties.

NY State V&T Law Section 402 makes no mention of mounting orientation, but does specify "conspicuously displayed" in text. Further sections go on to prohibit artificial obstructions such as clear covers, specify the minimum/maximum heights (used against lifted 4x4 pickups here), etc.

The online published legal opinions hint that the freedom of speech argument (flying flag upside-down in protest) do not apply to license plates.

My favorite rule in this vein is from the Formula SAE rulebook back in the day, where they had to spell out that all race car numbers had to be non-zero positive integers. I can only imagine working timing/scoring and having to enter Pi as a car number. Who would have thought that engineers would be so creative?

I've seen some cars from the Asian car show scene with diagonal license plates on the rear, with lots of body work to make it look factory. I wonder if there is a diagonal angle that would work enough to confuse the tracking technology without becoming probable cause?

With toll-by-mail being implemented all over the northeast, I suspect that one probably could not get away with upside-down plates for long anyway.....
Our ASAP-equipped units probably can't read the plate mounted diagonally, but I could be wrong. I stay away from ASAP-equipped cars because it's more work than it's worth.
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      05-09-2021, 09:24 AM   #2932
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So I get your point, but rules are rules and the law is the law.

When we still had paper drivers licenses there was an offence for failing to sign it in ink. That ticket was saved for special people.
Which is why I've favored a requirement that all laws sunset after 20 years (maximum), and must be individually voted to reinstate at that time (no omnibus). Would hopefully force state/federal legislators to actually consider what laws are needed, and let the rest go.

Enforcement of petty stuff, while "the law", is very annoying and frankly intrusive to people who are mostly law abiding (like minor speeders). I really don't like police using those laws, and check points, to try to get the baddies. To me is it harassing and intimidating 99 to catch 1, and contributes to ill feeling toward both police and the law.
Nobody is being harassed. Normal people almost never get pulled over nor cited for some obscure violation of law. There's nothing illegal or inherently wrong about a check point either. They are designed to saturate and show law enforcement visibility/presence.
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      05-09-2021, 09:36 AM   #2933
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During the checkpoint Friday night, there was one motorist, in particular, who almost received some extra attention from me. He pulls up to me and I generate some cordial conversation advising why we were there and what we were looking for (...generally speaking: impaired and/or unlicensed drivers). I didn't smell alcohol or marijuana in the vehicle, but I did ask if he had a valid driver's license. He replies, "Why?"....as if I'm somehow out of line for asking and implying that my question has no merit. At this point I'm already beginning to get annoyed. He presents a driver's license, but won't hand it to me. I demanded that he give me the license so that I may inspect it. He goes, "Why are you asking? Your partner up there isn't asking." .....not that he even knew what my partner was asking because he was too far up ahead to hear AND my partner was leaned into the car. This motorist hands me the license while uttering nonsense under his breath. He's lucky the checkpoint was backing up, otherwise I would have really inconvenienced him. I saw three violations I could've written him for.
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      05-09-2021, 09:44 AM   #2934
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Nobody is being harassed. Normal people almost never get pulled over nor cited for some obscure violation of law. There's nothing illegal or inherently wrong about a check point either. They are designed to saturate and show law enforcement visibility/presence.
Should have said “feels like harassment”, sorry. I understand that police are implementing the law. I don’t like the law. Same with the check point. Irritating delay (I’m on the road to get somewhere, not to chat with you), and the law be damned, it feels like an over-reach and illegal search. Again, feeds an attitude toward policing and the law which contributes to where we are today. - and I support the police, am friendly with them when stopped.

There are corrupt police traffic scams (revenue raisers) as well. Some speed traps are set up this way (having nothing to do with public safety), and I’ve seen the “impeding the flow” scam in Taylor, MI in person. That shit has to stop.

As a somewhat normal person (my wife’s opinion notwithstanding), I have been stopped for petty stuff several times in my life. Tail light out, “what’s in the trunk?” Never cited for any of it which makes me think it was an excuse to fish. I always knew about it before being stopped, too, once I was on my way to buy the bulb.
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      05-09-2021, 09:45 AM   #2935
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
During the checkpoint Friday night, there was one motorist, in particular, who almost received some extra attention from me. He pulls up to me and I generate some cordial conversation advising why we were there and what we were looking for (...generally speaking: impaired and/or unlicensed drivers). I didn't smell alcohol or marijuana in the vehicle, but I did ask if he had a valid driver's license. He replies, "Why?"....as if I'm somehow out of line for asking and implying that my question has no merit. At this point I'm already beginning to get annoyed. He presents a driver's license, but won't hand it to me. I demanded that he give me the license so that I may inspect it. He goes, "Why are you asking? Your partner up there isn't asking." .....not that he even knew what my partner was asking because he was too far up ahead to hear AND my partner was leaned into the car. This motorist hands me the license while uttering nonsense under his breath. He's lucky the checkpoint was backing up, otherwise I would have really inconvenienced him. I saw three violations I could've written him for.
Plenty of YouTube videos suggesting this behavior, which is bad advice for several reasons including the variation in laws from state to state.
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      05-09-2021, 09:50 AM   #2936
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Should have said “feels like harassment”, sorry. I understand that police are implementing the law. I don’t like the law. Same with the check point. Irritating delay (I’m on the road to get somewhere, not to chat with you), and the law be damned, it feels like an over-reach and illegal search. Again, feeds an attitude toward policing and the law which contributes to where we are today. - and I support the police, am friendly with them when stopped.

There are corrupt police traffic scams (revenue raisers) as well. Some speed traps are set up this way (having nothing to do with public safety), and I’ve seen the “impeding the flow” scam in Taylor, MI in person. That shit has to stop.

As a somewhat normal person (my wife’s opinion notwithstanding), I have been stopped for petty stuff several times in my life. Tail light out, “what’s in the trunk?” Never cited for any of it which makes me think it was an excuse to fish. I always knew about it before being stopped, too, once I was on my way to buy the bulb.
So what you call "petty stuff", like a burnt out tail light might be a minor equipment infraction. But it is grounds for a stop, perhaps the officer stopped you to advise you so that you could get it fixed. There could be other underlying problems that led to it that should be addressed. If someone rear ended you because of that burnt out tall light it might not seem so "petty". The fact that he told you and let you go likely goes to the fact I have mentioned and that you indicated that you are always "friendly with them" when you are stopped.

I agree some places need to take old laws off the books. It's still an offence to drag a dead horse through Toronto.....
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      05-09-2021, 09:58 AM   #2937
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Should have said “feels like harassment”, sorry. I understand that police are implementing the law. I don’t like the law. Same with the check point. Irritating delay (I’m on the road to get somewhere, not to chat with you), and the law be damned, it feels like an over-reach and illegal search. Again, feeds an attitude toward policing and the law which contributes to where we are today. - and I support the police, am friendly with them when stopped.

There are corrupt police traffic scams (revenue raisers) as well. Some speed traps are set up this way (having nothing to do with public safety), and I’ve seen the “impeding the flow” scam in Taylor, MI in person. That shit has to stop.

As a somewhat normal person (my wife’s opinion notwithstanding), I have been stopped for petty stuff several times in my life. Tail light out, “what’s in the trunk?” Never cited for any of it which makes me think it was an excuse to fish. I always knew about it before being stopped, too, once I was on my way to buy the bulb.
So what you call "petty stuff", like a burnt out tail light might be a minor equipment infraction. But it is grounds for a stop, perhaps the officer stopped you to advise you so that you could get it fixed. There could be other underlying problems that let to it that should be addressed. If someone rear ended you because of that burnt out tall light it might not seem so "petty". The fact that he told you and let you go likely goes to the fact I have mentioned and that you indicated that you are always "friendly with them" when you are stopped.

I agree some places need to take old laws off the books. It's still an offence to drag a dead horse through Toronto.....
To piggyback off of this, these things always seem petty to people.......until they are negatively impacted by somebody else's actions. It may seem petty that we pull someone over for not having a plate on their vehicle, but if they are involved in a hit & run with a vehicle with no plate - thus, leaving us with a generic vehicle description - all of a sudden they understand. It may seem petty that someone is pulled over for a tail light that's not in good working order.....until they rear-end someone who has an inoperable tail light, causing damage to their vehicle.
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      05-09-2021, 10:20 AM   #2938
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It may seem petty that we pull someone over for not having a plate on their vehicle, but if they are involved in a hit & run with a vehicle with no plate - thus, leaving us with a generic vehicle description - all of a sudden they understand.
In the more "urbanized" areas in these parts, it is not uncommon to see cars driving around without front license plates. Trivial offense on the surface, but the odds are that another unregistered/uninsured car is illegally on the road with that missing front plate mounted on its rear. Hope you are carrying the maximum uninsured motorist coverage if you happen to meet one of them by accident.....
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      05-09-2021, 10:32 AM   #2939
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In the more "urbanized" areas in these parts, it is not uncommon to see cars driving around without front license plates. Trivial offense on the surface, but the odds are that another unregistered/uninsured car is illegally on the road with that missing front plate mounted on its rear. Hope you are carrying the maximum uninsured motorist coverage if you happen to meet one of them by accident.....
We are only issued one plate for each vehicle and it is mounted on the rear except for commercial (semi tractor, dump truck etc.) where it may be obscured by the load. This is one way to eliminate two vehicles on the same plate. Cars look better without a front plate as well.
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      05-09-2021, 10:44 AM   #2940
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We are only issued one plate for each vehicle and it is mounted on the rear except for commercial (semi tractor, dump truck etc.) where it may be obscured by the load. This is one way to eliminate two vehicles on the same plate. Cars look better without a front plate as well.
Nova Scotia and Quebec are the only two provinces that do that. I would often stop cars only displaying one marker. Usually a nice car and the guy usually had it in the trunk or on the floor. Then came the excuse that it fell off in the car wash or the honest ones would say I don't like the way it looks. I might give a caution, especially if the guy lived in the area I regularly patrolled because I knew I'd see them again. One guy took about 5 summonses before he got the message.
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      05-09-2021, 11:34 AM   #2941
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Nova Scotia and Quebec are the only two provinces that do that.
To my knowledge, Ontario, British Columbia and Manitoba are the only provinces left in Canada that continue to require drivers to have license plates on the front and back of their vehicles.
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      05-09-2021, 11:53 AM   #2942
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To piggyback off of this, these things always seem petty to people.......until they are negatively impacted by somebody else's actions. It may seem petty that we pull someone over for not having a plate on their vehicle, but if they are involved in a hit & run with a vehicle with no plate - thus, leaving us with a generic vehicle description - all of a sudden they understand. It may seem petty that someone is pulled over for a tail light that's not in good working order.....until they rear-end someone who has an inoperable tail light, causing damage to their vehicle.
I understand pulling someone over for a missing plate, and an obviously unsafe vehicle condition, and really unsafe driving (weaving in and out, excessive speed differential, etc). But with technology today everything else can be an email or mail notification or citation.

Sometimes it feels like the traffic police are an HOA on wheels.
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      05-09-2021, 12:01 PM   #2943
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We are only issued one plate for each vehicle and it is mounted on the rear except for commercial (semi tractor, dump truck etc.) where it may be obscured by the load. This is one way to eliminate two vehicles on the same plate.
With toll-by-mail (and soon congestion pricing in NYC) becoming prevalent in the northeast, having two plates doubles their chances of getting a good read.

Unless I'm mistaken, I believe that the UK found a solution for using one set of plates on two different cars. They made all of their front plates a different color, so they can easily be spotted when they are on the back of another vehicle.....
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      05-09-2021, 12:11 PM   #2944
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I understand pulling someone over for a missing plate, and an obviously unsafe vehicle condition, and really unsafe driving (weaving in and out, excessive speed differential, etc). But with technology today everything else can be an email or mail notification or citation.

Sometimes it feels like the traffic police are an HOA on wheels.
You assume everyone has email, or that the police will have your email. The fact is that many equipment violations lead the police to other more serious offences and investigations. Also, the operator may not be the owner and often times the offence goes to the driver not just the owner. For example, we had many offences that could go to both. Operate unsafe vehicle and Permit the operation of an unsafe vehicle.

It's clear that you don't like the intrusion or inconvenience of being stopped and there is a solution really. Don't commit any violations.

Last edited by Murf993; 05-09-2021 at 12:18 PM..
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      05-09-2021, 01:52 PM   #2945
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Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
I understand pulling someone over for a missing plate, and an obviously unsafe vehicle condition, and really unsafe driving (weaving in and out, excessive speed differential, etc). But with technology today everything else can be an email or mail notification or citation.

Sometimes it feels like the traffic police are an HOA on wheels.
You assume everyone has email, or that the police will have your email. The fact is that many equipment violations lead the police to other more serious offences and investigations. Also, the operator may not be the owner and often times the offence goes to the driver not just the owner. For example, we had many offences that could go to both. Operate unsafe vehicle and Permit the operation of an unsafe vehicle.

It's clear that you don't like the intrusion or inconvenience of being stopped and there is a solution really. Don't commit any violations.
You took the word(s) right out of my mouth. Imagine if the registered owner were responsible for every citation issued regarding the vehicle. What he suggested would put the R/O at fault probably 100% of the time. That would piss a lot of people off.
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      05-09-2021, 03:42 PM   #2946
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You took the word(s) right out of my mouth. Imagine if the registered owner were responsible for every citation issued regarding the vehicle. What he suggested would put the R/O at fault probably 100% of the time. That would piss a lot of people off.
Isn't this what happens with all camera tickets? Speeding, stop lights....
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      05-09-2021, 03:47 PM   #2947
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You took the word(s) right out of my mouth. Imagine if the registered owner were responsible for every citation issued regarding the vehicle. What he suggested would put the R/O at fault probably 100% of the time. That would piss a lot of people off.
Isn't this what happens with all camera tickets?
When my son was about 17 (33 now), he was caught going through an intersection just as the light turned red. A photo was taken and it was sent to my wife because she co-signed for his car, even though the pic was obviously of a male. lol
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      05-09-2021, 04:30 PM   #2948
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
You took the word(s) right out of my mouth. Imagine if the registered owner were responsible for every citation issued regarding the vehicle. What he suggested would put the R/O at fault probably 100% of the time. That would piss a lot of people off.
Isn't this what happens with all camera tickets? Speeding, stop lights....
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You took the word(s) right out of my mouth. Imagine if the registered owner were responsible for every citation issued regarding the vehicle. What he suggested would put the R/O at fault probably 100% of the time. That would piss a lot of people off.
Isn't this what happens with all camera tickets?
When my son was about 17 (33 now), he was caught going through an intersection just as the light turned red. A photo was taken and it was sent to my wife because she co-signed for his car, even though the pic was obviously of a male. lol
All she had to do was show the court she wasn't driving and they would've happily passed that fine over to the son.
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