DCT in 335is

[isugoo]

Originally Posted by ///Metak

The AT in the 335i is actually pretty damn good!

It was pretty bad. I owned it for 10 months (08 E92 335i AW/CR combo) and had to get rid of it. It didn't do things I liked to do. =)

[gr8000]

Originally Posted by Johndoe

Roundel magazine has an article that confirms main difference between M3 DCT vs Z4 DCT is software programming..but mechanically the same tranny.....also price of Z4 DCT is almost half that of M DCT...BMW says due to "programming"......Great I pay twice as much and get the "programmed" lag as a freebie

Come on man, at least you are a prowd M owner! Well, the M badge comes at a price!!

I guess as long as people (myself inclusive) are paying BMW top dollar for this, why should BMW stop doing this? As much as I love the DCT (I seriously continue to believe it is brilliant even with the lag) I think BMW should really take a step back. I paid crazy money for my M3 and crazy money for the DCT itself last year plus it seems BMW is learning its way on my back regarding the DCT lag so future owners (read Z4 owners) take an identical in terms of hardware, lag-free DCT which is also way cheaper!!

If there is one lesson I learned with this excersise is NEVER be the first in que when it comes to something new. It WILL have teething problems and it WILL eventually become cheaper. If I could go back in time I would buy exactly the same car but 1 year latter i.e. now.

[zenderm3]

Originally Posted by gr8000

Come on man, at least you are a prowd M owner! Well, the M badge comes at a price!!

I guess as long as people (myself inclusive) are paying the price BMW will continue to do this. As much as I love the DCT (I seriously continue to believe it is brilliant even with the lag) I think BMW should really take it a step back. I paid crazy money for my M3 and crazy money for the DCT itself last year plus it seems BMW is learning its way on my back regarding the DCT lag so future owners (read Z4 owners) take an identical in terms of hardware, lag-free DCT which is also way cheaper!!

gr8000 - good call. totally agree... kind of sucks. However, I guess that when they get the software working (which might be very very soon) we will get that really great advantage over and above everybody else.

That being said - keen to get my ///M. 130 days is such a long long way away!

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Johndoe

also price of Z4 DCT is almost half that of M DCT...BMW says due to "programming"......Great I pay twice as much and get the "programmed" lag as a freebie

I guess you were talking about the price of the DCT transmission on the option list and not the entire car? The cars should come within 15-20k of each other, comparably equipped (Z4 vs. E93 M3).

Someone who has access to a Z4 DCT should give it a good drive and report back on the lag. It is surpising that the 335i and M3 lag, but not the Z4. Of the three the M3 obviously has the more complicated software (drivelogic) but I think the 335i software might actually be more simplified than the Z4.

[gr8000]

Originally Posted by zenderm3

However, I guess that when they get the software working (which might be very very soon) we will get that really great advantage over and above everybody else.

Sure, but I really hope this is a matter of "when" and not "if". Because at this point in time nothing tells me that the lag will ever be eliminated. Look at all this back and forth, letters to BMW, software updates, hose replacement, idle valve replacements etc. Eventually the latest software was released (1 year after the first DCTs were delivered!!) and although the lag is significantly reduced, still it is there. Lots of emotions in the meantime on this, not to mention BMW's shitty client service when it comes to communications / treatment of its clients as far as the lag issue is concerned.

I do hope the issue gets fully resolved but I must admit I have been more hopefull in the past about this than now. We'll see...

[JCtx]

Reportedly the upcoming 8-sp planetary auto (to debut on the new 7 series) shifts as quick as the current DCT (actually quicker if more than 1 gear change as DCT does that sequentially), and converter locks up at 1K rpm, making it the best of both worlds, according to Getrag, maker of the M3's DCT. A converter is the best launching mechanism, lasts a lot longer than clutches, super reliable, it's as efficient as DCT, and there's nothing smoother in auto mode. They said BMW plans to leave DCT just on sports cars. Go to Getrag's website if you want to read more about it. Good day.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

(actually quicker if more than 1 gear change as DCT does that sequentially)

Hmm - that can't be true in general. My car will drop from 7th to 3rd in a near instant.

No doubt the autos with torque converters are keeping a tight race with DCT transmission these days though.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Hmm - that can't be true in general. My car will drop from 7th to 3rd in a near instant.

I was quoting Getrag's website, and they were talking about their new 8-sp tranny, which is NOT your garden variety auto tranny .

But yes, if MB's 7-sp tranny is any indication, they're getting up there with DCTs indeed. Just from the reliability standpoint, I'd choose that new 8-sp over a DCT all day long (not for me though), but that's just my opinion. Both kinds are AUTO TRANNIES, as they're doing the shifting for you (be it auto-manual, torque converter, CVT, etc), but DCT guys somehow get offended by that .

[waremark]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

I was quoting Getrag's website, and they were talking about their new 8-sp tranny, which is NOT your garden variety auto tranny .

But yes, if MB's 7-sp tranny is any indication, they're getting up there with DCTs indeed. Just from the reliability standpoint, I'd choose that new 8-sp over a DCT all day long (not for me though), but that's just my opinion. Both kinds are AUTO TRANNIES, as they're doing the shifting for you (be it auto-manual, torque converter, CVT, etc), but DCT guys somehow get offended by that .

I compared my DCT M3 extensively to a C63. The DCT was just a touch more responsive in 'sporty' driving, the C63 a touch smoother around town. The M3 had a better transmission control layout - eg, after running in S to change back to D is a simple flick of the lever in the M3, whereas in the C63 you have to fiddle for a little button (out of sight in a UK right-hand drive car) and press it twice. They are both excellent transmissions - and yes I consider them both to be autos.

We have two other Mercs with the 7 speed auto, in both cases less responsive than the M3: an E500 (E550 in North America) in which the tranny is much smoother, and an SLK 350 in which it is less smooth than the M3.

I have not driven a Merc with the 7 speeder with a wet clutch instead of a torque converter - such as the new SL63's and E63's.

I think the M3 makes a good case for being the best auto for a sports car short of the Bugatti Veyron - exceptionally fast, smooth, responsive changes, and good gear selection in auto modes. But if only they could eliminate the lag problem .....

[isugoo]

This thread is awesome.

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

Both kinds are AUTO TRANNIES, as they're doing the shifting for you (be it auto-manual, torque converter, CVT, etc), but DCT guys somehow get offended by that .

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

Both kinds are AUTO TRANNIES, as they're doing the shifting for you (be it auto-manual, torque converter, CVT, etc), but DCT guys somehow get offended by that .

Doesn't offend me - the only difference between the two is how they accomplish the task. The basic user interface and user experience is the same.

However, I will say this, driving an automatic-equipped car in manual mode is an entirely different experience from driving the same car in auto mode. I personally never use auto mode, as I prefer to shift myself. So the only thing being automated for me is the clutch actuation, which is not the reason why "autos" were called "autos" to begin with (they were called autos because, they automatically shift for you - you just work the gas and brakes and that is it). So, if someone ever wants to put a DCT (or even a true "auto" with torque converter and planetary gear drive) in a car and not offer an auto mode at all, then that car is no longer an "automatic" anymore. It boils down to semantics, sure, but it is important to remember if you want to give an accurate account of how the car operates.