Deciding between an E90 M3 and RS4

[footie]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I went to the site, and they not only claim the RS4 makes 380 HP, they claim their chip is good for another 50 HP.

I assume the 380 HP number is an estimate based on chassis dyno runs, which of course is suspect. Am I wrong? Did they pull the engines?

The 50 HP gain is of course complete nonsense. That sort of gain is only available on turbo engines.

Bruce

I concur, no way can a chip produce such an increase on it's own. Am I not correct that the figure produced from a dyno is then calculated up to a crank figure based of atmospheric adjustments, estimated drivetrain losses and a great helping of slight of hand.

Basically they can give you the kind of figures you want to see.

Suspect is underestimating it.

[BMW-driver]

@bruce,

Please be more accurate . That's the B5 2.7 RS4 (380bhp) you are talking about.

For the RS4V8 (4.2), without turbo, they are all around 380-400bhp. Depending of the car, new software can bring the car to appr. 410-430bhp (gain of appr. +30bhp). You can call them ofcourse and talk to guys yourself. I assume they speak English!

Good luck!
ACS1.35i

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by acs1.35i

@bruce,

Please be more accurate . That's the B5 2.7 RS4 (380bhp) you are talking about.

For the RS4V8 (4.2), without turbo, they are all around 380-400bhp. Depending of the car, new software can bring the car to appr. 410-430bhp (gain of appr. +30bhp). You can call them ofcourse and talk to guys yourself. I assume they speak English!

Good luck!
ACS1.35i

OK, my bad.

The RS4 V8 shows 420 HP (meaning as advertised) - but with Vmax and KL. They claim 20 HP, which strains credibility, but I suppose may be just possible.

However, what are Vmax and KL?

And again, have they pulled engines to verify power, or are they just estimating from a chassis dyno?

Your source, so that's why I'm asking you.

Bruce

[Robin_NL]

Leonard(the RS4 V8 guy) told me , JD engineering dyno'd his car first without the chip: 415/418 DIN HP (crank)or something like that, so he was lucky he was at almost the manufacturer's spec 420DIN HP(crank off course) They put in the chip and dyno'd it and 440DIN HP crank came out...

JD Engineering is a reliable company with a good name here in the Netherlands and they do German cars as well. So just call them and verify if you don't believe us and want to have proof.

[jaeS4]

So wait, they estimated a crank hp of 415/418 and that's about 2-5 hp off compare to the advertised 420hp. That's not too bad IMO, i mean it is in the ballpark, i wouldn't consider that necessarily overrating. Again, IMO the e90M3 and the RS4 is sooo close in performance and most owners would probably not be able to explore these cars full potential that it wouldn't make much of a difference or wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Granted the driving experience is probably going to be completely different between the two and i'm guessing that the M3 has the edge on this.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Leonard(the RS4 V8 guy) told me , JD engineering dyno'd his car first without the chip: 415/418 DIN HP (crank)or something like that, so he was lucky he was at almost the manufacturer's spec 420DIN HP(crank off course) They put in the chip and dyno'd it and 440DIN HP crank came out...

JD Engineering is a reliable company with a good name here in the Netherlands and they do German cars as well. So just call them and verify if you don't believe us and want to have proof.

I believe you, but what you're essentially telling me is that, based on their estimated losses thru a chassis dyno, the single example you spoke of made the advertised power.

You can see how this isn't persuasive evidence of anything - other than it tends to support Audi's advertised numbers.

Again, here in the U.S., performance numbers tend to suggest that the car was rated correctly.

Bruce

PS - Yet again, what are Vmax and KL, and do they affect power?

[Robin_NL]

Guys, Leonard was lucky with his 415-418BHP engine. Many RS4 owners are/were not...

VMax= no topspeedlimiter, so >250kmh
KL:dunno sorry

[silvrevo]

S4 and RS4 are nice cars.

I dont get the whole interior is better thou? It looks the same as a 10 year old Audi.

And more than that,, pop the hood,,, or bonnet as some of you girls call them.

The engine hands over the front axel a good 40%!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF is up with that? It needs awd to it dosnt drive around on its tip-toes.

This is why they went with a 3.0s v6 in the new S4, to push that crap further back.

I just couldnt get over the fact the motor hangs over the front axel so mucho.

[footie]

Originally Posted by silvrevo

S4 and RS4 are nice cars.

I dont get the whole interior is better thou? It looks the same as a 10 year old Audi.

And more than that,, pop the hood,,, or bonnet as some of you girls call them.

The engine hands over the front axel a good 40%!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF is up with that? It needs awd to it dosnt drive around on its tip-toes.

This is why they went with a 3.0s v6 in the new S4, to push that crap further back.

I just couldnt get over the fact the motor hangs over the front axel so mucho.

Tell me, if you just got in a drive the bloody thing and realised that it actually corners, steers and handles really well, does it matter where the engine sits?

Franky the engine could be sitting on the roof for all I care if the thing handled and did everything else right, also it hasn't stopped Porsche for giving the rest of the supercar clan a good seeing to by having their engines stuck all the way out there behind the rear axle.

[silvrevo]

Im betting you call it a bonnet dont ya?????

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by footie

Tell me, if you just got in a drive the bloody thing and realised that it actually corners, steers and handles really well, does it matter where the engine sits?

Franky the engine could be sitting on the roof for all I care if the thing handled and did everything else right, also it hasn't stopped Porsche for giving the rest of the supercar clan a good seeing to by having their engines stuck all the way out there behind the rear axle.

LOL @ footie. Yes it DOES MATTER where the engine sits and YES with the 911 the engines stucking way out of the rear axle give(with the modern models) the benefit of TRACTION plenty while accelerating and BRAKING like an idiot. A car dives when braking but a huge mass of engine at the back prevents the rear end from going up that much so you can get more BRAKE BIAS at the REAR wheels and 'releaving' the front axle and keeping that for turning in more or less better. Though a 997 feels a bit like a speedboat still.

So it really matters where an engine is located. And in front of the front bumper is not the ideal place unless you want to have your understeer coming in faster.(some Audis)

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by silvrevo

Im betting you call it a bonnet dont ya?????

My nickname should have been Robin Bonnet

[graider]

Originally Posted by Irb Digital

In the U.S., M3 starts $13k cheaper than the RS4. GTR and RS5 aren't the cars in discussion, and one doesn't even exist yet, but if you insist. All I care for is a mechanical diff, so if one car has a diff with all the bells and whistles, thats good too, but I don't care. I don't know the stats of the RS5, so I won't make assumptions til its here. The RS4, the car we've been discussing, 58% of the weight over its front wheels, and based on a FWD chassis. The discussion should end there, but I'll keep going. S5 54% over the front wheels, which is nothing to brag about, and again, based on a FWD chassis. The GTR's 53% percent over the front wheels isn't the best either, but an improvement and its a dedicated chassis, built with one purpose in mind. Methinks if the RS4 and RS5 (I took the bait ) had 480hp, it still wouldn't be posting the times the GTR is. Adding turbo's and a DCT (which isn't confirmed in the U.S. yet) doesn't make it a GTR. I like the GTR, but its not the ultimate sports car, it understeers a lot until the electronics take over, and doesn't offer a 3rd pedal. Dollar for dollar though, it might be the ultimate "track" car. Enough about the GTR though, I didn't bring it up, and there's PLENTY of other threads on here to discuss it.

actually, I think the m3 sedan does not have 50/50 weight distribution. More like 52/48 according to the spec on bmw sites. The coupe is like 50.9/49.1 or something like that. So if you compare the sedan to the gtr, the difference is very minimal really. perfect 50/50 is just a marketing gimmick IMO.

[graider]

Originally Posted by silvrevo

S4 and RS4 are nice cars.

I dont get the whole interior is better thou? It looks the same as a 10 year old Audi.

And more than that,, pop the hood,,, or bonnet as some of you girls call them.

The engine hands over the front axel a good 40%!!!!!!!!!!!!

WTF is up with that? It needs awd to it dosnt drive around on its tip-toes.

This is why they went with a 3.0s v6 in the new S4, to push that crap further back.

I just couldnt get over the fact the motor hangs over the front axel so mucho.

+1. nothing special about the interior, just like a regular a4 interior imo

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by graider

actually, I think the m3 sedan does not have 50/50 weight distribution. More like 52/48 according to the spec on bmw sites. The coupe is like 50.9/49.1 or something like that. So if you compare the sedan to the gtr, the difference is very minimal really. perfect 50/50 is just a marketing gimmick IMO.

Actually BESTMOTORING tested the E90 M3 vs the E92 M3 and it was the other way around. E90 M3 saloon like 50.8:49.2 and E92 M3 coupe 51.2:48.8.
Or something like that(can't find the video at the moment...) The E90 had the 'best' weight distribution in that video and was a few thousands of a second faster at Tsukuba than the E92 coupe fwiw.

[graider]

Originally Posted by footie

Phoenix Yellow is that no the same colour as the one which Clarkson called 'Bile' yellow. No wonder he was looking so much.

Sorry I can't help myself.

and this came from someone with a silver car with baby blue hue metallic. ask a chick what her favourite colour and first thing would be baby blue. hum....

haha joke aside, anyway that was the merc bio car. lol. it was some sort of limegreen colour actually.

[Genro757]

I considered an RS4 and an M3 when I was buying a car and the thing that really got me was the service I recieved at the BMW dealership vs. the Audi dealership. If Im going to dump a bunch of money in a car...I expect that the service I get should be 1000% better than if I were to buy a car at the local Acura or Ford dealerships...the guys at Audi...didnt really impress me too much with knowledge of the car and didnt really cater to what I expect a "premium" dealership should be...the guys at BMW on the other hand...customer service was top notch...and thats probably why I continue to go to them whenever I add a new mod to the car...BMW all the way

[RJD M3]

I too looked at an RS4 prior to selecting the E90 M3. The RS4 was attractive in that was a more limited production car and I loved my old 2000 S4. However, the warranty and service plan from BMW blows away every other car maker's plan. And while the RS4 is a fantastic car, the interior and exterior designs are showing their age and with the MY 09 LCI update the BMW is keeping up with the times.

[GreenwichM3]

Originally Posted by yellowssm

but imagine a RS4 with snow tires. talk about fun, no way a M3 would be close in the snow or rain or any semi slick condition.



WTF are you looking at, the M3 sedan body style is garbage, and if you re-read my post I said IMHO.

I agree, saw the sedan yesterday, not even close to the coupe....

[TheKosherStogie]

i had an rs4 and have m3 now....rs4 is an amazing car no doubt...and not like an s4 in anyway...handles far superior...better weight distribution...less understeer...especially throw on some sways bars..500...and u can get tail out without e-brake....amazing grip around turns...not as nimble as m3...but a great car...just much different handling...engine is superb...and think it sounds better than the m3...especially with a tubi..prob one of best sounding cars ever heard