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[lucid]

Nothing personal. I would not have somone eyeball my suspension specs, which is what you guys are claiming is fine. (Are you sure he doesn't use any tools at all?) I would never take my car to a shop that does not use precision tools to do work that requires precision. Yes, such precision measurement tools weren't available 50 years ago. That doesn't mean relying on one's senses can match their accuracy. The OP's problems might or might not be caused by measurement error (or the lack of measurement), but that is beside this simple and obvious point.

[quality_sound]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

I got an alignment like 5 months ago, and I put on springs like 5 1/2 months ago. When am I due for another alignment?

I also added 5mm front spacers and I will be changing my tire sizes from 255/35, 285/30 to 245/35, 295/30 in a couple months or less.

This bears highlighting as any uneven wear you're getting due to bad camber will be worse going with wider tires. Get the alignment fixed before you do the tire swap.

[jimmyeatsworld]

Originally Posted by lucid

Nothing personal. I would not have somone eyeball my suspension specs, which is what you guys are claiming is fine. (Are you sure he doesn't use any tools at all?) I would never take my car to a shop that does not use precision tools to do work that requires precision. Yes, such precision measurement tools weren't available 50 years ago. That doesn't mean relying on one's senses can match their accuracy. The OP's problems might or might not be caused by measurement error (or the lack of measurement), but that is beside this simple and obvious point.

Yes he uses tools. He goes about it the old school way and not with the contemporary way of lasers, and machines. I'm trying to recall the names of the tools. It will come to me.

WestEnd is not the only one who uses the old school methods. I have had an alignment done in the past in the Fullerton area who still uses the old school methods. Lee and Son Alignment.

Darren at WestEnd is very good at his trade, and very knowledgable about suspension, geometry, and calculations. I believe he is a track junkie as well, with a dedicated track car to go along with it.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by jimmyeatsworld

Yes he uses tools. He goes about it the old school way and not with the contemporary way of lasers, and machines. I'm trying to recall the names of the tools. It will come to me.

WestEnd is not the only one who uses the old school methods. I have had an alignment done in the past in the Fullerton area who still uses the old school methods. Lee and Son Alignment.

Darren at WestEnd is very good at his trade, and very knowledgable about suspension, geometry, and calculations. I believe he is a track junkie as well, with a dedicated track car to go along with it.

Yes, one can still align a car without the more precise sensors and computers. My objection was to the statement "he does eveything by feel", which suggested a lack of measurement of any kind.

[jimmyeatsworld]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yes, one can still align a car without the more precise sensors and computers. My objection was to the statement "he does eveything by feel", which suggested a lack of measurement of any kind.

icic.... I believe that statement is false.

After my alignment and corner balance with Darren, he had provided me my measurements (camber, caster, toe, corner weights, etc) albeit hand written on a piece of paper. He was actually very precise and "anal" about the entire procedure.

[FStop7]

The hardcore pros are able to do precise alignments with a couple of pieces of string.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by lucid

Maybe that's why the OP has uneven wear on his tires then...

People bring Darrin their track cars from as far away as Phoenix, he knows what he's doing.

If you ask for an alignment that offers good handling with the trade off of longevity, he's going to give you that.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by FStop7

The hardcore pros are able to do precise alignments with a couple of pieces of string.

Indeed with something like the old school dunlop alignment gauge you can do front and rear toe, add in some cotton or string and you can align the rear wheels with the fronts.

[RPIpower]

Darren is pretty good but hes not some caveman in their doing stuff way old school. lol. Yes, he uses tools and is up to date with todays technology.

When you change suspension parts, your alignment will change. Lots of kids think that since the car doesnt pull to one side or the other, that their alignment is OK. Drop the car, get negative camber, dont do the proper alignment, dont wonder why your tires are wearing the way they are. lol.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by FruitCake

but he knows his stuff and does everything by feel.

Originally Posted by lucid

Yes, one can still align a car without the more precise sensors and computers. My objection was to the statement "he does eveything by feel", which suggested a lack of measurement of any kind.

Originally Posted by jimmyeatsworld

icic.... I believe that statement is false.

Originally Posted by FStop7

The hardcore pros are able to do precise alignments with a couple of pieces of string.

FStop7,

See the posts/exchange above. I am objecting to anybody performing an alignment by "feel" as opposed to "measurement". Not sure what you are objecting to?

Strings are not enough. You still need some kind of measurement tool to measure either angles, or distances to arrive at angles. If the tools and the measurement methodology have more precision and accuracy, the measurement will be more precise and accurate.

A state of the art alignment machine, if used properly, will yield more precise measurements, and consequently, more precise alignment than using a string and an angle finder for instance, but that might be all there is that is available to you at the track, and it is probably good enough, but necessarily precise--depends on what you mean by precise.

However, it is debatable if your average enthusiasts will actually benefit from the increased precision of a state of the art machine. They sure would benefit from the reduced possibility of measurement error--assuming the technician knows how to use the machine, which he should.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by MrHarris

I got an alignment like 5 months ago, and I put on springs like 5 1/2 months ago. When am I due for another alignment?

I also added 5mm front spacers and I will be changing my tire sizes from 255/35, 285/30 to 245/35, 295/30 in a couple months or less.

Originally Posted by RPIpower

When you change suspension parts, your alignment will change. Lots of kids think that since the car doesnt pull to one side or the other, that their alignment is OK. Drop the car, get negative camber, dont do the proper alignment, dont wonder why your tires are wearing the way they are. lol.

As far as I can tell, the OP did get his car aligned after dropping it. It is not clear when he put the spacers on though.

[Lemans_Blue_M]

Originally Posted by lucid

FStop7,

See the posts/exchange above. I am objecting to anybody performing an alignment by "feel" as opposed to "measurement". Not sure what you are objecting to?

Strings are not enough. You still need some kind of measurement tool to measure either angles, or distances to arrive at angles. If the tools and the measurement methodology have more precision and accuracy, the measurement will be more precise and accurate.

A state of the art alignment machine, if used properly, will yield more precise measurements, and consequently, more precise alignment than using a string and an angle finder for instance, but that might be all there is that is available to you at the track, and it is probably good enough, but necessarily precise--depends on what you mean by precise.

However, it is debatable if your average enthusiasts will actually benefit from the increased precision of a state of the art machine. They sure would benefit from the reduced possibility of measurement error--assuming the technician knows how to use the machine, which he should.

+1

Lucid is correct.

A state of the art alignment machine uses very precise measurements to dial in the proper camber,caster, and toe angles. This will insure a proper balance between traction,handling,and tire wear.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by lucid

FStop7,

See the posts/exchange above. I am objecting to anybody performing an alignment by "feel" as opposed to "measurement". Not sure what you are objecting to?

Strings are not enough. You still need some kind of measurement tool to measure either angles, or distances to arrive at angles. If the tools and the measurement methodology have more precision and accuracy, the measurement will be more precise and accurate.

A state of the art alignment machine, if used properly, will yield more precise measurements, and consequently, more precise alignment than using a string and an angle finder for instance, but that might be all there is that is available to you at the track, and it is probably good enough, but necessarily precise--depends on what you mean by precise.

However, it is debatable if your average enthusiasts will actually benefit from the increased precision of a state of the art machine. They sure would benefit from the reduced possibility of measurement error--assuming the technician knows how to use the machine, which he should.

Just to be clear, Darrin does use tools and he doesn't use the string method in his shop. He's got a very nice alignment rack (a couple of them, I think) and all the tools you'd expect. Just no laser guided rack like you'd see at a dealership.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by lucid

Strings are not enough. You still need some kind of measurement tool to measure either angles, or distances to arrive at angles. If the tools and the measurement methodology have more precision and accuracy, the measurement will be more precise and accurate.

A state of the art alignment machine, if used properly, will yield more precise measurements, and consequently, more precise alignment than using a string and an angle finder for instance,

AIUI you only use "string" (cotton is better) to check that the rear wheels are aligned with fronts....and while not disputing the above, you can get quite a good result as long as you are able to measure a simple distance to within a mm.
If my maths is correct a difference left to right side in distance between a piece of cotton (held tight in parallel to the rear wheels) and the front hubs of 1mm works out to a little over a minute in rear toe...given the +- range of tolerance that BMW allow that does give you a fair amount of leeway in getting it within spec.
Does that make sense?...I could set up my Dunlop alignment gauge and take photos to make it clearer but I can't really be arsed!

[MrHarris]

Originally Posted by lucid

As far as I can tell, the OP did get his car aligned after dropping it. It is not clear when he put the spacers on though.

-Installed H&R springs
-Waited 2 weeks, got alignment
-Curbed rear rim real bad 2 weeks later, got another alignment 4 weeks after initial spring install
-Installed MS 5mm spacers to the front 6-7 months after first alignment


I'll be changing my tires within the next 2 months to AD08's also while changing width and diameter.

I guess then I'll go back to West End? Some of you guys are saying that the laser alignment machines are better. I took my car to a place with a Hunter alignment machine to get my alignment redone after hitting the rim pretty hard. The guy couldn't get it straight as the machine said it was straight when my car clearly drifted and my steering wheel wasn't even pointed straight. After 4 times he gave me my money back. I then took it to West End and he fixed it in about 45 minutes and it's been great ever since.

I just think it's a little weird how my rear tires have about 2/32" tread difference inner/outer while the front tires have no visable difference that I can see.

[FruitCake]

The laser machines are fine, but its only as good as its operator.
I will choose Darren over a hunter alignment machine any day.
BTW I've had my E46 M3 aligned at Lucent Motors and they used the Hunter alignment machines. Great shop, great people and Tom knew his sh1t but Darren IMO is just on another level.

[mrtm2008]

One other factor that isn't being mentioned is TIRE PRESSURE. If your tire pressure is too low, you will also find yourself with more inner wear than usually expected.

[quality_sound]

But you'd also have outer tire wear to match.

[bigjae1976]

You are the proud owner of the BMW tire eating machine. On my 330 (I can imagine that its just as bad on an M3) will wear a set of tires down to the belts in less than 20k miles while the front tires look barely worn.

I flip my rear tires to put the worn insides on the outsides. Not optimal but you can get some more mileage out of your rear tires. Some tires specify which side to mount towards the outside so I don't think you can flip the tires in that case.

[Mtune]

Hey guys.I have excessive wear on the inner portion of my front tyres.Can the camber settings be adjusted to solve this problem?

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by montreal red

my tires arent completely worn yet but the inner part of my tire is slightly more worn then the outer part... this ist he same for all 4 (front and rear). difference in wear is bout 1mm... i am at 22 000 kms.

22k km, is that your first set, how much do you have left, and what tires is it mate?

Just putting new tires on, 2nd set front and third set rear, 31k km. To be fair probably 3-4mm left. Fairly easy street driving only. Wonder how much people get out from their tires on normal street use?

Thanks