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      02-08-2018, 04:18 AM   #1
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Blown Engine..Block cracked after engine overhaul...

This car is my friend’s 2009 e92 m3 with about 90,000 miles and just had an engine block cracked during track event. This incident was happened in South Korea. There are really great tuning shops in Seoul, but due to distance and daily work, he decided to tow the car to a local shop.

He previously had an engine oil temperature increasing problem. Usually, engine oil temperature stays around 210F in a normal driving condition. The weather was beautiful (75F), and his engine oil temperature gauge was reaching around 240F and getting a warning if pushed hard. He first thought the problem was an engine oil cooler. BMW service center said that the cooler was fine and recommended to change the engine oil level sensor, but the owner denied and sent the car to a local shop recommended by his other friend who owns e92 m3 as well. The shop never had an experience with S65 engine disassembly, and I was really worried although the shop had numerous engine overhaul experiences....But his friend insisted him to put the car in his recommended shop.

(He did not mention about reduced coolant abnormally and smoke from exhaust, so I definitely thought it was other problem.)

So the symptom was following before failure:
1. Increased oil temperature. (Normal driving temp. at 240F and above when pushed hard during his commute to work)

A. Changed oil twice (10w-60 Petronas), coolant (Motul), and radiator
from OEM to CSF (Did not solve the temperature problem)

2. Reduced coolant and smoke from exhaust (Which is definitely an engine problem) later on.

At the shop, recommended by his friend, the technician diagnosed that it is a 100% head problem and the whole engine needs to be overhauled completely. So the owner agreed as he was going to track the car frequently. The owner clearly also said that the coolant had been reduced and there was smoke from exhaust to the technician. So, the after disassemble, the shop technician sent a picture of a broken VANOS, and there was no damage in the block or any else. The technician said the VANOS was causing a high temperature problem and block was fine. I first thought how the Vanos did not trigger a warning light or any symptom of failure. And the shop disassembled the engine entirely and clean. Rod bearing was replaced to OEM bearing (The owner had BE bearings done about 10,000km ago). The process took about two months and the owner received the car back. He paid about $9,000 for this job…and the shop said the temperature was fine during testing.

After receiving a car, November, 2017, he drove the car in a normal driving style for breaking-in period. The temperature was pretty cold (Like 30F), but the oil temperature was around 220F even during slow driving for the breaking-in period. The shop said it is a normal operation temperature, but I said “hell no” especially in this weather condition. After 1500km, he changed engine oil to shell 10w-60 and prepared for the winter track event to test the car. The weather was freezing and snowing in the track, so he only had few laps to test the car. During first two laps, oil temperature increased rapidly and got low coolant warning sign. There was no sign of coolant leaking under the tray, so he refilled with water and lightly pushed the car. But the low coolant warning sign appeared again. He stopped the track event right away. He drove the car to home, (refilled again in the middle) and towed the car to the shop from his house. He always warm-up the engine, 5000km oil change interval, and etc. to maintain the car.

The shop said
1. You have tracked the car. (I was WTF?)
2. You have been using Shell 10w-60 which he said it is a bad engine oil (I was second WTF?)
3. It is been two months, so we do not take any responsibilities (I was like third WTF? due to only drove less than 3,000km)
Basically blaming the owner even though the shop new coolant was reducing.

Here are my questions:
1. What is the symptom of the broken Vanos?
2. Do you guys think the shop has responsibilities for this issue?
3. The owner decided not to sue the shop, but wants feedback from other people.

First picture is after track event. And later pictures are during overhaul.
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Last edited by drifts500; 02-08-2018 at 09:16 AM..
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      02-09-2018, 05:12 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drifts500 View Post
This car is my friend’s 2009 e92 m3 with about 90,000 miles and just had an engine block cracked during track event. This incident was happened in South Korea. There are really great tuning shops in Seoul, but due to distance and daily work, he decided to tow the car to a local shop.

He previously had an engine oil temperature increasing problem. Usually, engine oil temperature stays around 210F in a normal driving condition. The weather was beautiful (75F), and his engine oil temperature gauge was reaching around 240F and getting a warning if pushed hard. He first thought the problem was an engine oil cooler. BMW service center said that the cooler was fine and recommended to change the engine oil level sensor, but the owner denied and sent the car to a local shop recommended by his other friend who owns e92 m3 as well. The shop never had an experience with S65 engine disassembly, and I was really worried although the shop had numerous engine overhaul experiences....But his friend insisted him to put the car in his recommended shop.

(He did not mention about reduced coolant abnormally and smoke from exhaust, so I definitely thought it was other problem.)

So the symptom was following before failure:
1. Increased oil temperature. (Normal driving temp. at 240F and above when pushed hard during his commute to work)

A. Changed oil twice (10w-60 Petronas), coolant (Motul), and radiator
from OEM to CSF (Did not solve the temperature problem)

2. Reduced coolant and smoke from exhaust (Which is definitely an engine problem) later on.

At the shop, recommended by his friend, the technician diagnosed that it is a 100% head problem and the whole engine needs to be overhauled completely. So the owner agreed as he was going to track the car frequently. The owner clearly also said that the coolant had been reduced and there was smoke from exhaust to the technician. So, the after disassemble, the shop technician sent a picture of a broken VANOS, and there was no damage in the block or any else. The technician said the VANOS was causing a high temperature problem and block was fine. I first thought how the Vanos did not trigger a warning light or any symptom of failure. And the shop disassembled the engine entirely and clean. Rod bearing was replaced to OEM bearing (The owner had BE bearings done about 10,000km ago). The process took about two months and the owner received the car back. He paid about $9,000 for this job…and the shop said the temperature was fine during testing.

After receiving a car, November, 2017, he drove the car in a normal driving style for breaking-in period. The temperature was pretty cold (Like 30F), but the oil temperature was around 220F even during slow driving for the breaking-in period. The shop said it is a normal operation temperature, but I said “hell no” especially in this weather condition. After 1500km, he changed engine oil to shell 10w-60 and prepared for the winter track event to test the car. The weather was freezing and snowing in the track, so he only had few laps to test the car. During first two laps, oil temperature increased rapidly and got low coolant warning sign. There was no sign of coolant leaking under the tray, so he refilled with water and lightly pushed the car. But the low coolant warning sign appeared again. He stopped the track event right away. He drove the car to home, (refilled again in the middle) and towed the car to the shop from his house. He always warm-up the engine, 5000km oil change interval, and etc. to maintain the car.

The shop said
1. You have tracked the car. (I was WTF?)
2. You have been using Shell 10w-60 which he said it is a bad engine oil (I was second WTF?)
3. It is been two months, so we do not take any responsibilities (I was like third WTF? due to only drove less than 3,000km)
Basically blaming the owner even though the shop new coolant was reducing.

Here are my questions:
1. What is the symptom of the broken Vanos?
2. Do you guys think the shop has responsibilities for this issue?
3. The owner decided not to sue the shop, but wants feedback from other people.

First picture is after track event. And later pictures are during overhaul.
Thats fucked up. Hope it works out for your buddy
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      02-09-2018, 09:48 PM   #3
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Does that picture show the coolant spraying into the center of the V? If it is, then it's coming from a crack right at the head bolt location. I've seen blocks cracked there before. When they rebuilt, did they use head bolts or head studs? If it's studs, then they seated them too deep and cracked the block. If it's head bolts, it doesn't necessarily mean they screwed up.

Cracks in S65 block can be very hard to see. I've seen blocks that look visually perfect, but when you start them up, coolant leaks out. That's how hard it can be to see a crack in the S65 block.

From what you said, it was already consuming coolant before the rebuild. That is usually caused by cracked block, or blown head gasket. You said it smoked out the exhaust. That can be head gasket, rings, valve stem seals, or cracked block (if the crack is internal).

Unfortunately, without a full tear-down, I don't think there's enough info to know what caused this. That also means there's not enough information to blame the builder because some of the same symptoms exist after the rebuild as they did before (consuming coolant).
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      02-09-2018, 11:46 PM   #4
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So overheating plus losing coolant before the shop?.... and still overheating plus losing coolant after the shop?
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      02-10-2018, 01:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post
Does that picture show the coolant spraying into the center of the V? If it is, then it's coming from a crack right at the head bolt location. I've seen blocks cracked there before. When they rebuilt, did they use head bolts or head studs? If it's studs, then they seated them too deep and cracked the block. If it's head bolts, it doesn't necessarily mean they screwed up.

Cracks in S65 block can be very hard to see. I've seen blocks that look visually perfect, but when you start them up, coolant leaks out. That's how hard it can be to see a crack in the S65 block.

From what you said, it was already consuming coolant before the rebuild. That is usually caused by cracked block, or blown head gasket. You said it smoked out the exhaust. That can be head gasket, rings, valve stem seals, or cracked block (if the crack is internal).

Unfortunately, without a full tear-down, I don't think there's enough info to know what caused this. That also means there's not enough information to blame the builder because some of the same symptoms exist after the rebuild as they did before (consuming coolant).
I really appreciate your feedback. The owner informed the shop that the coolant was reducing and engine is overheating. So in general, the shop would assume the gasket is blown or so, but the shop said that everything is fine except that broken VANOS. And yes, the coolant is leaking from the V

I will ask the owner if the shop had used the head bolt or studs.

Thanks!
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Last edited by drifts500; 02-10-2018 at 01:23 AM..
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      02-10-2018, 01:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
So overheating plus losing coolant before the shop?.... and still overheating plus losing coolant after the shop?
Yep, and blaming the owner for track use...;;
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      02-10-2018, 08:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
So overheating plus losing coolant before the shop?.... and still overheating plus losing coolant after the shop?
Exactly, doesnt seem like the shops problem at all.
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      02-10-2018, 08:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoosting View Post
Exactly, doesnt seem like the shops problem at all.
True, except that they were informed of coolant leak.
If they found the head gasket to be good at disassembly, that should have been a red flag.
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      02-10-2018, 08:02 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
True, except that they were informed of coolant leak.
If they found the head gasket to be good at disassembly, that should have been a red flag.
Yes, overheating before the shop. The shop said the overheating was solved by engine overhaul and stating the problem was cracked Vanos. Nothing wrong with the block or anything else. After the breaking-in period, the owner went to the track to see the problem, but still coolant reducing and overheating. This is why I am kind of mad when I heard this. As the owner does not really know about hardware, he thought the shop fixed the problem. But if the coolant was reducing and smoke came out from the exhaust, the shop must assume crack in the block if the piston rings and gaskets were totally fine, but only the bronken VANOS.
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      02-11-2018, 02:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drifts500 View Post
Yes, overheating before the shop. The shop said the overheating was solved by engine overhaul and stating the problem was cracked Vanos. Nothing wrong with the block or anything else. After the breaking-in period, the owner went to the track to see the problem, but still coolant reducing and overheating. This is why I am kind of mad when I heard this. As the owner does not really know about hardware, he thought the shop fixed the problem. But if the coolant was reducing and smoke came out from the exhaust, the shop must assume crack in the block if the piston rings and gaskets were totally fine, but only the bronken VANOS.
Here is my problem with this entire story. A crack in that location, would cause a massive pool of coolant on the floor since there are 2 drain holes on the back wall of the block, in the V. The Vanos problem could cause a rise in oil temps, since internal cylinder temps would rise with the changes in cam timing. 3. The wrong coolant has been used on this engine. 4. A simple coolant pressure test on a warm engine would have found that crack in minutes. Only disassembly required would be the removal of the plenum. 5. Coolant loss and smoke from the exhaust is almost always a head gasket problem, but I've never seen an S65 blow a head gasket with normal track use.

Looking at the pics, the crack would most likely have been caused by a fluid, water, brake cleaner, coolant etc being in the bottom of the blind head bolt hole, and when the bolt is installed and torqued, that outward hydraulic pressure would definitely crack the block.

Unless you can prove the shop cracked the block after fixing the initial repair, this is the owners problem now. Simple as that.
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      02-12-2018, 11:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ham_sammich View Post
Here is my problem with this entire story. A crack in that location, would cause a massive pool of coolant on the floor since there are 2 drain holes on the back wall of the block, in the V. The Vanos problem could cause a rise in oil temps, since internal cylinder temps would rise with the changes in cam timing. 3. The wrong coolant has been used on this engine. 4. A simple coolant pressure test on a warm engine would have found that crack in minutes. Only disassembly required would be the removal of the plenum. 5. Coolant loss and smoke from the exhaust is almost always a head gasket problem, but I've never seen an S65 blow a head gasket with normal track use.

Looking at the pics, the crack would most likely have been caused by a fluid, water, brake cleaner, coolant etc being in the bottom of the blind head bolt hole, and when the bolt is installed and torqued, that outward hydraulic pressure would definitely crack the block.

Unless you can prove the shop cracked the block after fixing the initial repair, this is the owners problem now. Simple as that.
Thanks for the feedback.

The owner does not really care about the engine problem, but I was pretty upset how the shop is saying the engine is blown due to using wrong engine oil Shell 10w-60 and tracking the car.

Here is the point:
1. The owner said the engine coolant is reducing and oil temp. is increasing.
2. The shop told him to overhaul the entire engine.
3. The shop said the problem might be the head problem. (Found the Vanos was broken as shown in the picture)
4. Took about two months to due the overhaul.
5. The weather was freezing after the overhaul, but still the oil temp. was above normal during breaking-in period. Call the shop, but shop said it is normal.
6. So the owner went to the track session to get the temperature data right after breaking-in period.
7. Still the coolant was reducing and oil temp. was high.
8. Sent the car to the shop and shop found out there was a crack.

If it was after several track days and driving, I would not blame the shop. But the same problem happened right after the shop overhauled entire engine and clearly said there is no cracks in the block and everything was in good condition.

I do not understand why the shop did not perform pressure test, or could be the crack in the block as the piston rings, gaskets, or everything was fine except the Vanos.
They just said the engine require an entire overhaul without saying the head might be the problem.
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      02-12-2018, 11:17 PM   #12
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Update from the owner.

The shop assumed the valves might be a problem, and perform the entire overhaul.
After assembling the engine, the mechanic started the engine, and there was a loud knocking sound from the head. They re-opened the valve cover, and found the Vanos was broken.

During the overhaul, the mechanic said everything was fine, but Vanos was broken after assemble and first start up?...
This is why I am really upset with the shop changing the word what they have said.

Also the owner went the BMW service center right before overhaul in the local shop to flush and change the thermostat to see if the problem was the thermostat.
BMW said the oil cooler looked fine, no leaks from anywhere, the thermostat was fine, cam position was great.

The BMW mechanic said it could be the gasket or valves. This is why the owner went to a local shop recommended by his friend BMW. (BMW claimed to get a new engine..$30,000 USD lol)
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      08-16-2019, 12:34 AM   #13
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ive recently blown my engine; ended up buying a second hand engine. Servicing it as much as i can before putting it in atm. If it blows again, ill get a new short block ordered from BMW; much cheaper than getting the whole long block.

Mine gets thrashed a lot with extra pressure from supercharger.
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      08-16-2019, 08:59 PM   #14
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Looks like a poor decision in wire brushing or wire-wheeling the gasket material off in transverse lines across the head. If that was the extent of head prep that was done prior to setting the head gasket on and torquing the head bolts, I'm not surprised it isn't sealing.

Either surface the entire head properly to Ra in spec or very lightly remove gasket material with gray scotch-brite on a *large* flat backing plate using brake cleaner to dissolve the gasket rubber left behind.
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      08-16-2019, 09:06 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green-Eggs View Post
Does that picture show the coolant spraying into the center of the V? If it is, then it's coming from a crack right at the head bolt location. I've seen blocks cracked there before. When they rebuilt, did they use head bolts or head studs? If it's studs, then they seated them too deep and cracked the block. If it's head bolts, it doesn't necessarily mean they screwed up.
This is a very valid an often overlooked part too. As silicon content in Aluminum increases, tensile strength goes down. A lot of "builders" tend to just keep torquing head bolts and/or studs to try and fix head leakage and eventually just crack the head bolt hole boss on the inner wall of the block.

https://www.asminternational.org/doc...4-bd5d20111c61
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      08-17-2019, 01:15 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
This is a very valid an often overlooked part too. As silicon content in Aluminum increases, tensile strength goes down. A lot of "builders" tend to just keep torquing head bolts and/or studs to try and fix head leakage and eventually just crack the head bolt hole boss on the inner wall of the block.

https://www.asminternational.org/doc...4-bd5d20111c61
Good info.

The more I read, the more it is clear that ONLY those who know what they are doing should work on the S65 and S85 engines!! So many little details.
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      03-28-2020, 09:13 AM   #17
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Head bolt torque is a simple thing to follow (if long winded these days!) and is not unique to the S65s, other engines are also vulnerable to over torquing or fluid left in the head bolt holes.
So anyone whose careful & follows correct procedure with the right tools can do this job.

Petronas 10w/60 is not the right oil for M3s, I looked into it as I work for a Suzuki dealer & we get Petronas cheap , sadly their 10w-60 oil is not the right API spec. See here.
That said, it'll have no impact on the cracked block.
Sadly he left it too late, he should've returned it the day he noticed the problem or at least ring them, and returned it ASAP.

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      03-31-2020, 08:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Good info.

The more I read, the more it is clear that ONLY those who know what they are doing should work on the S65 and S85 engines!! So many little details.
There are extremely few people that can work on a S65 correctly. Extremely few.



This shop looks like a bunch of clowns for sure.
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      04-01-2020, 11:44 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoosting View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamspeed View Post
So overheating plus losing coolant before the shop?.... and still overheating plus losing coolant after the shop?
Exactly, doesnt seem like the shops problem at all.
They still took an engine that was running way too hot oil temp and his money then returned an engine that still runs hot and they said it's fine.
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      04-01-2020, 12:42 PM   #20
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Agreed, they screwed up, they should've owned up, but of course they didn't want to as they hadn't fixed the problem & what they had already done was for nothing.
Not forgetting it went for overheating in the 1st place!
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      04-04-2020, 04:15 PM   #21
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The shop failed to find what the original issue is, they rebuilt it with the issue unresolved. The owner made a strategic mistake to track the car before the engine overheating was resolved. Whatever was and is still causing the overheating has nothing to do with the cam in valve train that they blew probably doing a mistake in the rebuild.
The engine probably isn't cracked but the extreme heat is melting and burning the gasket fast, also the extreme heat is causing additional damages to internals. How can an engine burn oil and coolant and the culprit still not found when doing a full engine overhaul ?? Maybe there may still be some small margin to save this engine at a shop with a more expert team.
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      04-06-2020, 12:04 PM   #22
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A? The engine (block) definitely is cracked as you can see the crack & coolant pissing out of it in the 1st photo! Sadly that engine block is scrap . Agreed on the rest though.
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