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      01-18-2020, 10:43 AM   #1
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E90 M3 v E39 M5

Who has owned both and how do they compare? Saw one clean E39 parked yesterday and like most I think of the e39 m5 as one of the best looking sedans ever built. Have never driven one, and don't plan on trading my e90 m3 for one. Just wanted to hear you all's opinion on their differences.
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      01-20-2020, 01:52 PM   #2
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There is a YouTube channel called "Shifted Perspective".... the person who runs it owns both and post regularly about each.
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      01-20-2020, 11:31 PM   #3
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I agree that the E39 series, particularly the E39 M5 is the best looking sedan ever. The long term maintenance scared me away but I almost bought one anyway on looks alone. And I've always been a function over form kind of guy so that's saying something.
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      01-21-2020, 05:15 AM   #4
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I agree that the E39 series, particularly the E39 M5 is the best looking sedan ever. The long term maintenance scared me away but I almost bought one anyway on looks alone. And I've always been a function over form kind of guy so that's saying something.
I’m pretty confident the e39 is the most reliable, cheapest to run M car there has been. It basically needs a chain tensioner every 100,000 miles and the secondary air system disabled (coding tweak). It has no significant or critical failure modes in the engine, trans, diff, or chassis. Electronics are independent, so if one module fails everything else keeps working.

It’s also from the era before BMW gave up on serviceability, so everything is still easy to work on.

There’s a reason there’s a bunch of them running around with 400,000+ miles. With low specific output comes low responsibility
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      01-21-2020, 04:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I’m pretty confident the e39 is the most reliable, cheapest to run M car there has been. It basically needs a chain tensioner every 100,000 miles and the secondary air system disabled (coding tweak). It has no significant or critical failure modes in the engine, trans, diff, or chassis. Electronics are independent, so if one module fails everything else keeps working.

It’s also from the era before BMW gave up on serviceability, so everything is still easy to work on.

There’s a reason there’s a bunch of them running around with 400,000+ miles. With low specific output comes low responsibility
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      01-21-2020, 04:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
I’m pretty confident the e39 is the most reliable, cheapest to run M car there has been. It basically needs a chain tensioner every 100,000 miles and the secondary air system disabled (coding tweak). It has no significant or critical failure modes in the engine, trans, diff, or chassis. Electronics are independent, so if one module fails everything else keeps working.

It’s also from the era before BMW gave up on serviceability, so everything is still easy to work on.

There’s a reason there’s a bunch of them running around with 400,000+ miles. With low specific output comes low responsibility
I'm sure you are correct. I unfortunately missed the boat on the E39 M's due to prices on decent cars being over $40k. By the time I'd figured out what a great car it was, the prices went up even more. There were some really clapped out ones around the PNW for under $20k, but not what I was looking for. I haven't followed the prices since I bought my E90M.
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      01-21-2020, 05:58 PM   #7
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I owned an E39 M5 for 15 years, 5+ of which included the E90 M3 at the same time. In terms of reliability, the E90 M3 has been vastly more reliable. My M5 had multiple repairs under the factory warranty period, and then post warranty I had to replace the alternator, CPS', cruise control switch, washer pump, thermostat, front thrust arm bushings, rear control arms, power steering lines - twice, one headlight adjuster, differential, rear view mirror, etc. I think my Excel list is on my BaT auction.

I decided to part with it at 66k miles back in 2018 since it seemed like the market was getting crazy, and the best time to sell is when they're screaming bids at you. It sold for $34k ($35,700) back in June of 2018. I'm glad I sold it so far even though I planned to keep it forever. It was replaced with an M2C which is crazy fun to drive, and my wife and I love it. It is now 16 months and 11k miles old with zero issues (as one would expect) so far too fwiw.

By contrast to my M5 experience, in 9+ years the E90 M3 has had one issue - that sensor in the crankcase vent hose. Zero warranty claims. Nothing other than regular maintenance including replacing the battery at year 7. Knock on wood I guess. Yes, I'm well aware of the bearing panic with the S65, and I've said for years now if mine goes, it's a great reason to do a stroker (either from Carbahn or S62Shop).

Driving wise, there's no comparison. The M3 is much more fun than the E39 M5. Faster, handles much better, steering feels great compared to the M5's ancient design (it had the same recirculating ball design as my 1972 Bavaria). My 6MT slicktop M3 weighs 400lbs less than my M5 did, and it's readily apparent. The brakes on the E39 are awful too -- mushy, too much initial travel,; however, I did have a Stopteck BBK on the M5 for many years, and that dramatically improved the feel not to mention performance on track. Now if you were going to go on a long trip, you'd want the M5...even mine with its Dinan springs, Konis, sway bars, monoballs, 9.5/275 square setup...it still rode very comfortably.
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      01-22-2020, 08:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
I owned an E39 M5 for 15 years, 5+ of which included the E90 M3 at the same time. In terms of reliability, the E90 M3 has been vastly more reliable. My M5 had multiple repairs under the factory warranty period, and then post warranty I had to replace the alternator, CPS', cruise control switch, washer pump, thermostat, front thrust arm bushings, rear control arms, power steering lines - twice, one headlight adjuster, differential, rear view mirror, etc. I think my Excel list is on my BaT auction.

I decided to part with it at 66k miles back in 2018 since it seemed like the market was getting crazy, and the best time to sell is when they're screaming bids at you. It sold for $34k ($35,700) back in June of 2018. I'm glad I sold it so far even though I planned to keep it forever. It was replaced with an M2C which is crazy fun to drive, and my wife and I love it. It is now 16 months and 11k miles old with zero issues (as one would expect) so far too fwiw.

By contrast to my M5 experience, in 9+ years the E90 M3 has had one issue - that sensor in the crankcase vent hose. Zero warranty claims. Nothing other than regular maintenance including replacing the battery at year 7. Knock on wood I guess. Yes, I'm well aware of the bearing panic with the S65, and I've said for years now if mine goes, it's a great reason to do a stroker (either from Carbahn or S62Shop).

Driving wise, there's no comparison. The M3 is much more fun than the E39 M5. Faster, handles much better, steering feels great compared to the M5's ancient design (it had the same recirculating ball design as my 1972 Bavaria). My 6MT slicktop M3 weighs 400lbs less than my M5 did, and it's readily apparent. The brakes on the E39 are awful too -- mushy, too much initial travel,; however, I did have a Stopteck BBK on the M5 for many years, and that dramatically improved the feel not to mention performance on track. Now if you were going to go on a long trip, you'd want the M5...even mine with its Dinan springs, Konis, sway bars, monoballs, 9.5/275 square setup...it still rode very comfortably.
A case study of 1 (your specific cars) isn't very meaningful... and any car driven 66,000 miles over almost 20 years is going to have a bunch of issues. But, equally meaningful (not) data point: My almost 200,000 mile e39 M5 has had less issues than your 66,000 mile M5 did :P

I completely agree the M3s (more so the older ones—the M2 is closer is size to the e36/e46 than the e9X is) are more fun to drive than the M5. The M5s have much more focus on high speed long distance commuting in comfort. Semi related: of all the M3 generations, I’d say the e90 is the most M5 like in its character.

The character thing is a matter of taste. I'd actually sell the M5 if it were up to me-- it's to big/torquey for my driving style/taste. But, my wife loves it and prefers it to the M3s... so it's her car/daily. She loves the comfort, civility, and torque... all the things that detract from the experience for me.

That said, I don’t really agree with your weight difference.

From cars I’ve had on my scales:



My pretty stock M5 (BBS RG-Rs and stoptech BBK being the only relevant to weight modifications) weighed in at 3890 lbs.
My friends stock stripper e90 M3 (no sunroof, no idrive, 18s, 6mt) weighed in at 3638 lbs

… so more like 250 lbs different.

(all car weights corrected to a half tank of gas)
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      01-26-2020, 06:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Driving wise, there's no comparison. The M3 is much more fun than the E39 M5. Faster, handles much better, steering feels great compared to the M5's ancient design (it had the same recirculating ball design as my 1972 Bavaria). My 6MT slicktop M3 weighs 400lbs less than my M5 did, and it's readily apparent. The brakes on the E39 are awful too -- mushy, too much initial travel,; however, I did have a Stopteck BBK on the M5 for many years, and that dramatically improved the feel not to mention performance on track. Now if you were going to go on a long trip, you'd want the M5...even mine with its Dinan springs, Konis, sway bars, monoballs, 9.5/275 square setup...it still rode very comfortably.
Thank you, driving feel is exactly what I was mainly wondering about.
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      01-27-2020, 10:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Thank you, driving feel is exactly what I was mainly wondering about.
Although, it's a bit unfair to compare the driving between the 2 because of the advances in suspension technology in the e90x gen and also they are built to be different cars. I've owned an e92 and currently own an e39. They are vastly different. The e39 is considered to be the best version of the M5. The driving and engine are just a joy to experience. Yes, it doesn't have the rack and pinion steering up front, but I was never taking mine to the track. It's fine for sprinted driving and curves. It won't compare to an e90 though in terms of handling.

Good examples are hard to find. I did buy mine from EAG so it is in the top 1% of M5's out there. But, I paid a premium and was happy to do so since I've only had to replace the throttle actuator in the 3 years of ownership. It was always one of my dream cars. It is a timeless example of the best M cars that came out of BMW and regardless of how much hp the new ones have; I'd take the e39 all day long. I would hold on to your e90. That soon will be a sought after model just like the e39.
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      01-27-2020, 01:10 PM   #11
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My experience on driving the E39 vs. E90 echoes CSBM5's. I love the E39, but I chose not to marry one, and was willing to pay a substantial premium for the E90M after driving a few E39's and the E90 back when the E90 was just a toddler. Even in 2009-2010, E39M's were getting hard to come by for truly nice examples, but I found a couple, and drove them, and made my choice. The E39M was the car I thought I wanted after reading the internet, the E90M was the car I actually wanted.

No surprise spreadsheets are being trotted out in this discussion, and anecdotes, but it misses the poiint IMO. The M3 and M5 are great cars no matter which generation you choose. You can dig in on what you want from a car and find one that fits those attributes. You can have anything you want from any era of modern cars, wrapped in a practical wrapper, with a huge enthusiast base to draw knowledge from and ready parts availability, and for a performance car, relatively good long-term durablity.

You literally cannot go wrong with any of them, unless you pick the one you think you want based on internet comments, instead of driving them all (and then driving them all again, and again) - I see no reason why soembody wouldn't be completely smitten with the E39M after driving one, especially when compared against what passes for driving engagement from new cars, they're 100% awesome.
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      01-27-2020, 03:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
My CS was weighed with a full tank and was 3610 (I recall 3604 but whatever). So your spreadsheet wasn't corrected to half a tank for my car




Answering the topic, the big difference for me is that the E9X has a high specific output engine whereas the E39 does not, so I would never buy one. If I needed an M5 it would be an E60 6MT for sure.

The E39 is the first BMW I recognize and wanted to buy, so I like it and I'm sure it's an excellent car. Kind of the vs E46M discussions: I have a very clear preference but either option will still be great
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      01-27-2020, 05:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
My CS was weighed with a full tank and was 3610 (I recall 3604 but whatever). So your spreadsheet wasn't corrected to half a tank for my car
When my E39 M5 was almost new (completely stock right down to OE delivered tires), it weighed 3992lbs with a full tank of fuel (measured on corner balance scales at Krause & England), nothing in glovebox except owner's manual, nothing in trunk, so essentially as delivered, and it did not have the heavier fold-down seat option however it did have M-audio subwoofer option.
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      01-28-2020, 07:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
When my E39 M5 was almost new (completely stock right down to OE delivered tires), it weighed 3992lbs with a full tank of fuel (measured on corner balance scales at Krause & England), nothing in glovebox except owner's manual, nothing in trunk, so essentially as delivered, and it did not have the heavier fold-down seat option however it did have M-audio subwoofer option.
It is always quite interesting to see the weights people quote.
After the F8X weight debacle started I've come to believe weights people quote are complete bullshit.

I've weighed three of my cars and all have weighed differently than what people quote.
E46M3, completely stock, full tank, sunroof, no nav, manual: 3500lb
E92 M3, completely stock with ZCP wheels, full tank,no nav, manual, same scale as E46M: 3600lb
F80 CS, completely stock, full tank, 3604 (or 3610 per Obioban's spreadsheet)

I find the source of the bullshit is things like 'stock but with lighter wheels', 'around half a tank of gas', etc etc

It's funny I've concurrently owned what appears to be the heaviest E46M in history as well as the lightest E92M in history. It must be some kind of miracle!
EDIT: It appears I also have the heaviest F80 CS. Over 100lb heavier than other people's quoted weights for normal F8Xs.

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      01-28-2020, 07:13 AM   #15
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There are often weights quoted for autocross setup cars too, especially stock class, which often have as little fuel as possible, and lighter exhaust and wheel setups than stock. On an E9x that can easily be 120-130lbs lighter than stock (i.e. 20lbs lighter wheels in total, 30lbs lighter exhaust, 70lbs of fuel not in tank, etc).
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      01-28-2020, 07:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
My CS was weighed with a full tank and was 3610 (I recall 3604 but whatever). So your spreadsheet wasn't corrected to half a tank for my car




Answering the topic, the big difference for me is that the E9X has a high specific output engine whereas the E39 does not, so I would never buy one. If I needed an M5 it would be an E60 6MT for sure.

The E39 is the first BMW I recognize and wanted to buy, so I like it and I'm sure it's an excellent car. Kind of the vs E46M discussions: I have a very clear preference but either option will still be great
Your F80 was 3657 lbs with the nearly full tank. We corrected it to 3610 to bring it in line with the half tank level I correct all the cars to on that list:





... I don't think of the e39 M5 as an "M car", in the same way I don't think modern Turbo BMWs are actual M cars, either. The both don't have the high specific output, high revs low torque engine, they both don't have great steering feel, and they're both kind of too physically large to really throw around on a back road. The M5 serves a different purpose for us-- long distance cruiser/silly muscle car thing.

... but if my wife didn't love it, I'd sell it. But, she does, and it's reliable, comfortable, gives our fleet diversity, and is easy to work on, so no incentive to push her to get rid of it. I do completely agree the e60 M5 is the best driving generation... but it's too unreliable to be ownable (at least for me), the back seat space is significantly less than the e39 (important to me at 6'4), and the interior is garbage. All that said... I'm still thinking about importing an e61 M5 when they become legal to do so, and the kids outgrow the e46 M3 wagon (and immediately 6mt converting it... and put non M front seats in, as they're the reason the e60 M5 has such terrible back seat space-- the stock M5 front seats are super thick).
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      01-28-2020, 07:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Your F80 was 3657 lbs with the nearly full tank. We corrected it to 3610 to bring it in line with the half tank level I correct all the cars to on that list:
.
Holy shit, so I also have the heaviest F80 CS in history as well.
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      01-28-2020, 07:40 AM   #18
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Holy shit, so I also have the heaviest F80 CS in history as well.
You certainly had the heaviest non vert e46 M3 I've seen! 3500 lbs
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      01-28-2020, 12:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood View Post
Although, it's a bit unfair to compare the driving between the 2 because of the advances in suspension technology in the e90x gen and also they are built to be different cars. I've owned an e92 and currently own an e39. They are vastly different. The e39 is considered to be the best version of the M5. The driving and engine are just a joy to experience. Yes, it doesn't have the rack and pinion steering up front, but I was never taking mine to the track. It's fine for sprinted driving and curves. It won't compare to an e90 though in terms of handling.

Good examples are hard to find. I did buy mine from EAG so it is in the top 1% of M5's out there. But, I paid a premium and was happy to do so since I've only had to replace the throttle actuator in the 3 years of ownership. It was always one of my dream cars. It is a timeless example of the best M cars that came out of BMW and regardless of how much hp the new ones have; I'd take the e39 all day long. I would hold on to your e90. That soon will be a sought after model just like the e39.
Yeah, def don't plan on parting with my E90 M3. Have had it for over 5 years now, and it's the one I have kept the longest.

I have made a mistake of getting rid of my E46 M3 ZCP.
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      02-08-2020, 12:50 AM   #20
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Owned E39 M5 for 6.5yrs, and now have owned E90 M3 MT ZCP for 3.5yrs.

Driving-wise, they are very different in character. The E39 is like a luxury car with a beastly engine and surprisingly athletic handling, while the E90 is a 997 C2S competitor but with 4 doors. M3 is much more athletic while M5 is more of a burly muscle car. Both a lot of fun. I'd say the M3 is the better driving car overall but the M5 has a certain character and subtle swagger that is hard to resist.

Ownership-wise, you basically choose between endless mild-moderate problems with the E39 vs. less common but more serious problems with the E90. I got around the latter with a warranty, and will do rod bearings if I keep the car past warranty. For the record, my M3 is now about the same age in years/miles as the M5 was when I got it. M5 has a lot better highway range with a bigger tank and about 4mpg more.

Interior/trunk size is pretty similar, the E90 is mainly just narrower. E39 has some parts that feel richer (mine had leather everything incl glovebox door, sun visors, dash) but other parts are far flimsier.

Overall I'd say I like driving the E90 more, but I had a closer connection with the E39. M3 is a more satisfying performance car but the E39 has more character and soul to it IMO.
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      02-11-2020, 10:19 PM   #21
Richneerd
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I also own both, E39 M5 > E90 M3.

M5 V8 loud and proud engine
M3 V8 quiet and calm engine

You guys probably see me around town or up and down the freeways, 237, 101 , 87, I go to Santana Row a lot due to the wife and kids.

My wallet RIP!

If anyone see's a E39 M5 for around 5-8k pick it up fast! They are all over the country for around that price rage. Just add it to your collection and play with it.
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      02-12-2020, 07:52 AM   #22
Obioban
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I think there's some areas where one car is clearly better than the other (both ways), but ultimately it just comes down to what you're looking for the car to do.
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2005 M3 Coupe, 2004 M3 Wagon, 2001 M5 Sedan, 2008 M5 6MT Sedan, 2012 128i M sport
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