e92 M3 Budget-Minded Track Build

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by ricardofors68

To be honest, did them more as peace of mind, glad I did once I saw them. Two guys local to me had them fail around my mileage (76xxx) as well. Compared to the money I've spent on trivial mods, this was a cheap no brainer for me.

Fair enough. The job looks to be around $2500, and if a total failure is a $15000 expense, statisticians and actuaries would tell me to save my money unless there was an >17% failure rate.

If its a 5% failure rate, we're paying ~$1500 extra for piece of mind.

But if piece of mind means you'll use the last 1000rpm more often, that's essentially a measure of performance (a mod!) for $1500.

Also, local BMW shop says they've never pulled a set of bearings out of the S65 in a condition that would have been normal for any other motor.

So, I'm dropping mine off on April 9th.

It'll be interesting to see what Adam chooses to do. The way I've seen him approach methanol implies he's much less risk averse than I am.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I'm curious what your specific issue with the Slonik Brembos is?

Like Adam, we both have a modified Porsche 991 TTS (and others). I don't need to buy myself straight to "epic". I'm building a cool car to play with on the track with my teenage son. I'm excited to make a few, inexpensive changes, then try things out, and then see how that works. I also got a Hard Motorsport brake cooling kit on order, though it doesn't seem like Hard Motorsports is trying very hard to ship it to me.

The questionable quality of the calipers but more than anything that they reuse the stock rotor.

I'm not questioning your or anyone else's ability to pay. I don't recall speaking of money at any point and definitely not calling you a cheapskate. This is a conversation, I don't want to clog up Longboarder's thread with an argument.

From my experience, you can run this car very hard on the track with just a rotor upgrade as that is the 600lb gorilla. The single piston caliper, while ugly, performs quite well.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Fair enough. The job looks to be around $2500, and if a total failure is a $15000 expense, statisticians and actuaries would tell me to save my money unless there was an >17% failure rate.

If its a 5% failure rate, we're paying ~$1500 extra for piece of mind.

But if piece of mind means you'll use the last 1000rpm more often, that's essentially a measure of performance (a mod!) for $1500.

Also, local BMW shop says they've never pulled a set of bearings out of the S65 in a condition that would have been normal for any other motor.

So, I'm dropping mine off on April 9th.

It'll be interesting to see what Adam chooses to do. The way I've seen him approach methanol implies he's much less risk averse than I am.

I like how you rationalize it.

Once you have rod bearings in the back of your mind avoiding you from hitting the rev limiter you're better off just doing them.

Besides, it's cool to see the insides of the S65. It's a very pretty engine

[ricardofors68]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I like how you rationalize it.

Once you have rod bearings in the back of your mind avoiding you from hitting the rev limiter you're better off just doing them.

Besides, it's cool to see the insides of the S65. It's a very pretty engine

It is a cool engine, better looking than any of my previous ohv entries.

[ricardofors68]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Fair enough. The job looks to be around $2500, and if a total failure is a $15000 expense, statisticians and actuaries would tell me to save my money unless there was an >17% failure rate.

If its a 5% failure rate, we're paying ~$1500 extra for piece of mind.

But if piece of mind means you'll use the last 1000rpm more often, that's essentially a measure of performance (a mod!) for $1500.

Also, local BMW shop says they've never pulled a set of bearings out of the S65 in a condition that would have been normal for any other motor.

So, I'm dropping mine off on April 9th.

It'll be interesting to see what Adam chooses to do. The way I've seen him approach methanol implies he's much less risk averse than I am.

So, did I do good boss? That's a unusual way to put things... this is a case where intellect falls short, and instinct takes over

[Ggeezer]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Fair enough. The job looks to be around $2500, and if a total failure is a $15000 expense, statisticians and actuaries would tell me to save my money unless there was an >17% failure rate.

If its a 5% failure rate, we're paying ~$1500 extra for piece of mind.

But if piece of mind means you'll use the last 1000rpm more often, that's essentially a measure of performance (a mod!) for $1500.

Also, local BMW shop says they've never pulled a set of bearings out of the S65 in a condition that would have been normal for any other motor.

So, I'm dropping mine off on April 9th.

It'll be interesting to see what Adam chooses to do. The way I've seen him approach methanol implies he's much less risk averse than I am.

As an actuary, I'd say the logic of being indifferent if the failure rate was over 17% would only apply if you were completely risk-neutral or a risk seeker (think gambling). Since most people are typically risk averse, we're willing to pay a certain amount up front to either substantially reduce or eliminate the risk of engine failure (similar to buying any type of insurance). It makes complete sense from a financial perspective to pay up $2,500 now and be nearly 100% certain that your engine will not grenade in the future, which *may* cost $15,000. Another wrinkle with these engines is that a replacement engine is still susceptible to failure so the rod bearings would need to be swapped on the replacement engine anyway to eliminate the risk of failure.

My 08 is at 55k (89k km) now with a clean Blackstone report at 45k and will collect another sample shortly. I'll be tracking the car 3-5 times this summer so I'll probably get the bearings swapped out next winter.

Subbed to this thread since there is a great amount of info.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Your confidence is entertaining.

If it doesn't work for the type of track days that Adam and I plan on, I'll let y'all know. If it does work, which I think it will, I'll let folks know that too.

I have no need what-so-ever for $4500 Essex AP BBK, given my intended purpose.

The oem rotors are garbage.

[kyippee]

Originally Posted by Ggeezer

As an actuary, I'd say the logic of being indifferent if the failure rate was over 17% would only apply if you were completely risk-neutral or a risk seeker (think gambling). Since most people are typically risk averse, we're willing to pay a certain amount up front to either substantially reduce or eliminate the risk of engine failure (similar to buying any type of insurance). It makes complete sense from a financial perspective to pay up $2,500 now and be nearly 100% certain that your engine will not grenade in the future, which *may* cost $15,000. Another wrinkle with these engines is that a replacement engine is still susceptible to failure so the rod bearings would need to be swapped on the replacement engine anyway to eliminate the risk of failure.

My 08 is at 55k (89k km) now with a clean Blackstone report at 45k and will collect another sample shortly. I'll be tracking the car 3-5 times this summer so I'll probably get the bearings swapped out next winter.

Subbed to this thread since there is a great amount of info.

Well said. I used to report to an actuary several jobs ago. I bought what is essentially a drivetrain warranty 5yr/60k miles while I was at 39k miles for ~$2800, with similar reasoning.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BRAKES
The PFC DD v3 rotors are very good. More than enough 'BBK' for most use.
As far as pads, I have fallen in love with the PFC 11 compound because it has almost zero street squeal, lasts a long time and is very easy to modulate. Although I have street pads on my BBK I no longer swap them out and just drive all year with the track pads.
Still, I would likely add a front BBK. BW sells the PFC Z54 front caliper I have in two cars for around 3k during their sales. Another option is the Essex kit referenced below

So the more I learn about the stock brakes, the more I learn that the issue isn't necessarily with the stock single piston calipers, but rather with the inability of the stock rotor to dissipate heat effectively.

So in your solution, do you use PFC DD v3 rotors front and rear or just front? And the PFC 11 is that a combo street / track pad? That would be fantastic if there was little to no squeak.

I went to the top of a mountain and did some hard braking and then parked my car (on a flat surface in Park brakes not engaged) and almost burned my face when I got close to the front wheel - it was coming from the front rotor. There was hardly any heat coming off the rear rotor. I see now why the stock brakes aren't up to track duty.

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Fair enough. The job looks to be around $2500, and if a total failure is a $15000 expense, statisticians and actuaries would tell me to save my money unless there was an >17% failure rate.

If its a 5% failure rate, we're paying ~$1500 extra for piece of mind.

But if piece of mind means you'll use the last 1000rpm more often, that's essentially a measure of performance (a mod!) for $1500.

Also, local BMW shop says they've never pulled a set of bearings out of the S65 in a condition that would have been normal for any other motor.

So, I'm dropping mine off on April 9th.

It'll be interesting to see what Adam chooses to do. The way I've seen him approach methanol implies he's much less risk averse than I am.

I did my rod bearings on my previous M3 at 32,000 miles. It was supercharged at 900 miles. There was very interesting pitting and oscillation wear marks likely from the blower. They didn't look good but they also weren't about to fail.

My current M3 has 35,000 miles. After inspection, it was never supercharged and the primary exhaust was never changed. All stock bolts in the engine area were never turned. So the car wasn't modded but I don't know how it was previously driven. If it was beat on when the oil was still cold it could have done some damage to the rod bearings.

My current M3 still has a warranty but I'm getting the itch to do a tune and front cat delete. I will have the tune run a 8,600 rpm fuel cut.

Since my M3's motor mounts are also blown, it just makes sense to do bearings and motor mounts at the same time. So I will likely do both in the next few months.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

So the more I learn about the stock brakes, the more I learn that the issue isn't necessarily with the stock single piston calipers, but rather with the inability of the stock rotor to dissipate heat effectively.

So in your solution, do you use PFC DD v3 rotors front and rear or just front? And the PFC 11 is that a combo street / track pad? That would be fantastic if there was little to no squeak.

I went to the top of a mountain and did some hard braking and then parked my car (on a flat surface in Park brakes not engaged) and almost burned my face when I got close to the front wheel - it was coming from the front rotor. There was hardly any heat coming off the rear rotor. I see now why the stock brakes aren't up to track duty.

You are correct. The 'single piston' sounds like a joke but its *massive*. One time some person told me it was impossible the single piston exerted as much braking force as my PFC bbk. I bothered to look into it and yup, the single piston can exert more force than the bbk. Yes there's deflection, etc, but a single giant piston isn't necessarily worse than 36 pistons because the 36 would have to have a total surface area approximately the same as the one giant one.

The pfc dd v3 is unfortunately only available for the front of the e9x m which is a real shame, but the front is what takes the brunt of it anyway.
True story:
On my track e46m it seemed like the rear rotors were on holiday whereas the fronts could burn hair off your leg after a session.
I went ahead and bought a pfc dd for the front
After that, the fronts seemed cool. Now the rears were hotter! I also got the rear kit and lived happily ever after

Send me your email via pm and I'll send you the pics I took comparing a v3 dd rotor to the stock one. It is painfully clear that the issue is the rotor, not the caliper. You could put a 30 piston caliper there and it wouldn't do much.

The pfc 11 is actually a full race pad. Somehow, inexplicably, it doesn't squeal like a pig. It makes some noise but the difference is immediately obvious. I drive with it all the time.
This weekend my brother and i took both cars out for a spin. One has pfc12 compound and the other pfc11. On the pfc11 it is almost completely silent! The pfc12 (endurance compound, new version of the pfc08) is like a typical track pad which sounds like a garbage truck

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The pfc dd v3 is unfortunately only available for the front of the e9x m which is a real shame, but the front is what takes the brunt of it anyway.
True story:
On my track e46m it seemed like the rear rotors were on holiday whereas the fronts could burn hair off your leg after a session.
I went ahead and bought a pfc dd for the front
After that, the fronts seemed cool. Now the rears were hotter! I also got the rear kit and lived happily ever after

So brake rotors and pads have to be understood as a consumable. Is the PFC something that's inexpensive to re-ring? My drive to use F80 rotors are the $550 (per pair) replacement cost. Is there any vendor that sells PFC other than HPA? Do they also sell rings, and if so how much? I dont mind a $1k initial investment if it reduces the annual expenditure.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Visceral

So brake rotors and pads have to be understood as a consumable. Is the PFC something that's inexpensive to re-ring? My drive to use F80 rotors are the $550 (per pair) replacement cost. Is there any vendor that sells PFC other than HPA? Do they also sell rings, and if so how much? I dont mind a $1k initial investment if it reduces the annual expenditure.

The F80 rotors are well priced but they suffer the same ventilation issues as the oem ones

I buy my pfc goodies at Bimmerworld.
BW has a front pfc v3 dd setup 'pack' which includes the rotors, pfc pads of your choice, ss lines and solid guides.
I don't recall what they cost but they're not cheap. That said, they last longer than my friend's ST40 rotors





Tomorrow I'll post some pics comparing both rotors


Update with pics

Stock rotor vanes and air path






PFC rotor vanes and air path

[Richbot]

good ducting can (and in fact, does, because I've seen it on E92M racecars that are rules-limited to stock brakes) keep the stock brakes alive on track for a whole 45-minute race. But we are talking two hoses with backing plates up front, so it's not exactly a non-invasive procedure without compromise. And still changing pads and rotors pretty often. Maybe not long-term economical, but short-term just fine.

Lack of ducts is a design flaw for any dedicated track car's braking system IMO. Plenty of people get away with it just fine, but it's suboptimal for obvious reasons.

[SYT_Shadow]

Here's the pfc package I was talking about

http://www.bimmerworld.com/PFC-E9X-M...-Compound.html

[Longboarder]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Here's the pfc package I was talking about

http://www.bimmerworld.com/PFC-E9X-M...-Compound.html

Awesome thx for all the help so far. $1,300 is a massive savings over a BBK. I wonder how much incremental benefit can be had with a BBK if someone is only doing 15-20 minute HPDE sessions, even if they are pushing the limit with threshold braking, trail braking, and MDM on rear with stock rear rotors.

Lets say i don't want any brake squeal and the PFC11's squeal a little bit. Is there a non race pad that will work with these front rotors?

And since the rear rotors will remain stock, is there a preferred pad upgrade for the rear in conjunction with the front rotor/pad upgrade?

Like others I want to spend the least amount of money possible considering short and long term. A BBK has good resale value in the secondary market and perhaps less operating costs than other choices. But the upfront cost is huge.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Longboarder

Awesome thx for all the help so far. $1,300 is a massive savings over a BBK. I wonder how much incremental benefit can be had with a BBK if someone is only doing 15-20 minute HPDE sessions, even if they are pushing the limit with threshold braking, trail braking, and MDM on rear with stock rear rotors.

Lets say i don't want any brake squeal and the PFC11's squeal a little bit. Is there a non race pad that will work with these front rotors?

And since the rear rotors will remain stock, is there a preferred pad upgrade for the rear in conjunction with the front rotor/pad upgrade?

Like others I want to spend the least amount of money possible considering short and long term. A BBK has good resale value in the secondary market and perhaps less operating costs than other choices. But the upfront cost is huge.

I think the incremental benefit is zero for most users. I've known two instructors who have this identical setup on their E9Xs with no issues.
If someone can do 2:11 at WGI on street tires with a full weight M3 with this setup then it isn't the brakes holding people back.

On the rear, no reason to not use the same compound as the front. This setup doesn't change the brake bias vs stock.
You can get lots more info about these from the guy who helps me at BW, Phil. Dial extension 3008 after calling the BW main line, the guy knows what he's talking about.

I believe you can use stock pads with these rotors, however, when I say the PFC11s aren't totally silent I mean it in the same way as the GC Street camber plate is not completely silent either. Almost completely silent but not 100% there. Compared to a regular track pad, silent is the correct word.

Both VictorH and myself have a front PFC brake along with the stock rear rotor. It now gets hotter than the front but it's fine, no weird behavior

[///Mobbin]

Another anecdote to add, my ST40 355mm front kit and OE rears are doing great for me, no heat issues to complain of the way I have it setup. That said, it really upsets me when a new McLaren passes me at Mach-2 on the back straight at COTA and then over brakes before turning in. I leave 100's of yards when this happens but trust me the gap closes quickly, they over-brake without fail (air brake and all), and they always position themselves on the far right side of the track leaving me rumble strips, grass, and a wall as my only out. Be confident that stock and smaller BBK's are plenty capable but there is some extra piece of mind and safety margin that you get with the larger kits.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Another anecdote to add, my ST40 355mm front kit and OE rears are doing great for me, no heat issues to complain of the way I have it setup. That said, it really upsets me when a new McLaren passes me at Mach-2 on the back straight at COTA and then over brakes before turning in. I leave 100's of yards when this happens but trust me the gap closes quickly, they over-brake without fail (air brake and all), and they always position themselves on the far right side of the track leaving me rumble strips, grass, and a wall as my only out. Be confident that stock and smaller BBK's are plenty capable but there is some extra piece of mind and safety margin that you get with the larger kits.

I prefer to use the car in front of me as my 'out'. I call it 'terror tactics'. To date it's the best way to get the throw-the-anchor-out-but-drag-people-down-the-straight-crowd to provide a pass

[Richbot]

Frustrations like that are why the good Lord above created club racing

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The F80 rotors are well priced but they suffer the same ventilation issues as the oem ones

My understanding is that they are a sliiiiiiightly better design than the E9x (a larger distance between hub and rotor vanes).

Either way, I'm back to trying to acquire a Hard Motorsports brake cooling kit. Bimmerworld is doing some research to find out how much a set of replacement rings for the PFC DD rotors are (and how available).

Certainly for race cars, we've had a set of spare rotors on hand. It would be nice.

[Visceral]

Replacement rings will be $720 a pair for the PFC DDv3.