What has the CSL got to do with you?

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by seriousm3

There are buys for the CLK63 Black... why wouldnt there be for an m3 csl????

Badging SUV's M is stupid since M is supposed to stand for motorsport and SUV's have nothing to do with motorsport. (obviously leaving things like dakar rally out).

M has built SUV's before... they just didnt receive M badges. x5 4.8is for example.

So you are saying that there is nothing wrong with M building an SUV just as long as there's no badge?

[southlight]

Originally Posted by ersin

You're right, they didn't make enough E46 CSLs. I'm sure that if they would have made ten times as many they would have sold them. But that's still small numbers compared to the M3 and certainly the rest of the 3 series. They just think they can't sell that much, or that maybe they don't make as much on each copy, therefore they don't want to put the effort to build and market many. Maybe they just want to make it collectible in the future?

If BMW had made ten times as many CSLs, it would have been a desaster. UK dealers had a hard time selling all the cars they got allocations for.

Originally Posted by ersin

I don't think cardboard trunk floors are too practical.

Cited for mofomats reading convenience.

Originally Posted by lucid

It is clear that BMW does not currently have a showcase car like a GTR, AMG Black, R8, GT3, ACR, or Z06. Although they seem to keep on saying they don't need such a car, I bet that they are concerned about that gap in their lineup, and will do "something" about it.

The rumour says that BMW will build a new and real supercar once they've won the F1 Championship.


Best regards, south

[M-Maika]

Originally Posted by southlight

The rumour says that BMW will build a new and real supercar once they've won the F1 Championship.

That will be a little hard to do since Ferrari and Mercedes are not playing around and having fun.
I´m not saying that BMW is playing around but it´s not an easy task.

Best Regards, Maika

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

To me, I don't care. The M3 is a great car, and I love it. That's all it matters to me. As long as they make a single car that performs like a pure bred sports car and within the price range that I could afford, I cool.

I am mostly with you on that, but I do think that BMW should at least offer the parts that they were developing for the CSL. In fact, I would probably actually prefer that over a factory CSL to begin with, if I were in the market for a track car.

Yes, some people might say that //M will be tarnished by not having a CSL and producing SUVs, but why do you care? I would like to think that most M3 drivers are like me; they are in it for the driving experience and not the braging rights of owning the //M badge in the back of their trunk. That's my take.

Its more about the focus of the M Division than it is the badge. For one thing, the M lineup uses their own engines which are built specifically with performance in mind. But the new X5 and X6 models will (almost surely) use a retuned N64 which is a turbo V8 with a 7k RPM redline and thus not really what M is all about. Sure, the old M5 used a lower revving V8 which was based on the N62 but all current cars use high-revving M specific motors. If the X5 and X6 do arrive as M models this progress will be lost, IMHO. It could very well open the door to an N64 powered F10 M5, which I personally will see as a big step backward. The next step after that would be a N54 powered F30 M3. Do you see the concern? I am not against turbocharging but I think M needs to develop their own forced induction system tailored to the S65 and/or S85 to preserve the brand.

Aside from that, these models will probably not get a wider body with wider track like M models are know for also (if spy shots are accurate). Again, more brand dilution. Just because it is an SUV does not mean it should be ok to get away without the full M treatment. Now having said all that, I am personally not convinced these SUVs will be badged Ms anyway (and have a bet to that effect). But, if it turns out they are then, I believe there is reason for concern as I have outlined above.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Its more about the focus of the M Division than it is the badge. For one thing, the M lineup uses their own engines which are built specifically with performance in mind. But the new X5 and X6 models will (almost surely) use a retuned N64 which is a turbo V8 with a 7k RPM redline and thus not really what M is all about. Sure, the old M5 used a lower revving V8 which was based on the N62 but all current cars use high-revving M specific motors. If the X5 and X6 do arrive as M models this progress will be lost, IMHO. It could very well open the door to an N64 powered F10 M5, which I personally will see as a big step backward. The next step after that would be a N54 powered F30 M3. Do you see the concern? I am not against turbocharging but I think M needs to develop their own forced induction system tailored to the S65 and/or S85 to preserve the brand.

Aside from that, these models will probably not get a wider body with wider track like M models are know for also (if spy shots are accurate). Again, more brand dilution. Just because it is an SUV does not mean it should be ok to get away without the full M treatment. Now having said all that, I am personally not convinced these SUVs will be badged Ms anyway (and have a bet to that effect). But, if it turns out they are then, I believe there is reason for concern as I have outlined above.

Not that I'd disagree, but ///M also used to build retuned AG engines, for example the S62 of the E39 M5 shared its basic layout with the M62. So using the N54 as a base is not necessarily a bad idea. It should be made able to revv way higher than 7,000 rpm, though.


Best regards, south

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by southlight

Not that I'd disagree, but ///M also used to build retuned AG engines, for example the S62 of the E39 M5 shared its basic layout with the M62. So using the N54 as a base is not necessarily a bad idea. It should be made able to revv way higher than 7,000 rpm, though.

Best regards, south

Yeah, sorry south, I mentioned the N62 above, but meant to say M62.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yeah, sorry south, I mentioned the N62 above, but meant to say M62.

Oops, didn't see that you mentioned that engine already.


Best regards, south

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by lucid

CSL has become an icon, .....And if that brand/culture/values are "diluted"--as in M SUVs--it is natural that some people will not like it. Otherwise, how could one justify paying $200k+ for a Ferrari for instance? There is an emotional component to all of this.

Why do you care that some people care about the CSL?

Absolutely! In my book the CSL says something about developing the M concept as far as it can go and it is aspirational even for those of us who are quite content w/ the lovely current M3. And buying these cars - given the deplorable fuel consumption for one - are not rational decisions.

Building a CSL would be an offset to the trend to building ///M Xers - akin to the 'sell-out' but commericially successful decision by Porsche AG to make the Cayenne. The CSL sends the right message, but I suspect that w/ all the back-lash about high petrol prices and the global slowdown that some beancounters killed its development.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

Forget the CSL... there are worse things going on... like the recent news that BMW will be moving some 3-series production to the US!!!

Now that's something worth bitching about - and honestly, this would be my last straw for BMW. If they actually start making the beloved 3-series here in the US... then my wife's next car will be a Mercedes - made in Germany!

And I'll keep my M3 forever!

You will be actually surprised to discover that both mercedes and bmw make much of their world production of 3 series and c class here in South Africa. Does it actually matter where the factory is located? So long as the QC is top notch I do not see a problem with it being in the US...

[Redadair]

Correct me if I am wrong here. But if my memory serves me correctly the e46 M3 CSL was never sold in the USA.

What makes anyone who is hoping that BMW will make an e9x M3 CSL think that they could actually buy one, at lease in North America?

I say enjoy your M and don’t worry about it.

Red

[Doc]

In SA we were lucky enough to get 65 of the e46 CSLs. I have driven in a few and almost bought one before I decided to get the E92 M3. The CSL driving experience is truly epic but IMHO BMW could have pushed the boat out a bit further(Brake performance for one is terrible!). It cannot be compared to the std car in any way its so much better unless you crawling at 5mph in traffic. Now imagine the E92 with just a little of that magic in DCT? 7min30 around the 'ring?.. It is signature BMW - sheer driving pleasure and extreme performance in an easily accessible package. At the price of a ZR1 it will find buyers..

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by Doc

In SA we were lucky enough to get 65 of the e46 CSLs. I have driven in a few and almost bought one before I decided to get the E92 M3. The CSL driving experience is truly epic but IMHO BMW could have pushed the boat out a bit further(Brake performance for one is terrible!). It cannot be compared to the std car in any way its so much better unless you crawling at 5mph in traffic. Now imagine the E92 with just a little of that magic in DCT? 7min30 around the 'ring?.. It is signature BMW - sheer driving pleasure and extreme performance in an easily accessible package. At the price of a ZR1 it will find buyers..

7:30 ring time? no way. maybe 7:45.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by hakaida442

7:30 ring time? no way. maybe 7:45.

We can dream cant we? check this out :-

http://www.loaded.se/sd_page/25/1/index.php

with just suspension and brake mods they were in the 7min30s with no engine fettling.. So I think an e92 M3 CSL can get into 7min30s

[lucid]

Originally Posted by Doc

We can dream cant we? check this out :-

http://www.loaded.se/sd_page/25/1/index.php

with just suspension and brake mods they were in the 7min30s with no engine fettling.. So I think an e92 M3 CSL can get into 7min30s

Where did you get 7:30 without engine mods? Am I missing something? As we all know the CSL that did 7:22 was supercharged.

[ferrari6891]

Originally Posted by Doc

We can dream cant we? check this out :-

http://www.loaded.se/sd_page/25/1/index.php

with just suspension and brake mods they were in the 7min30s with no engine fettling.. So I think an e92 M3 CSL can get into 7min30s

supercharged means messing around with the engine

Originally Posted by lucid

Where did you get 7:30 without engine mods? Am I missing something? As we all know the CSL that did 7:22 was supercharged.

exactly

[Doc]

Originally Posted by ferrari6891

supercharged means messing around with the engine




exactly

sorry for talking out my A**.. before they did the supercharging- in the early stages of development of the car with only brakes,tyres and suspension mods they were in the 30s- I think it was a 7min32-33, definitely less than 7m39.

And BTW .. they reckoned that they could improve on the time by about 3-5secs with minor tweaks.. sorry for off topic. I still believe that if a carrera 2s pdk with sports pasm can do a 7min50 - an m3 CSL with less weight, better balance and stability + 480bhp will keep up with a GTR.

[hakaida442]

Originally Posted by Doc

sorry for talking out my A**.. before they did the supercharging- in the early stages of development of the car with only brakes,tyres and suspension mods they were in the 30s- I think it was a 7min32-33, definitely less than 7m39.

And BTW .. they reckoned that they could improve on the time by about 3-5secs with minor tweaks.. sorry for off topic. I still believe that if a carrera 2s pdk with sports pasm can do a 7min50 - an m3 CSL with less weight, better balance and stability + 480bhp will keep up with a GTR.

I doubt that. A CSL with just brakes, mpsc tires, and suspension mods would beat the 430 scuderia, gt3rs, and a zonda S? NO FUCKING WAY.

The supercharger had a lot to do with the 7:22 time.

The e46 m3 csl is a great car but not a world beater bone stock or even with a few suspension mods.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by southlight

The rumour says that BMW will build a new and real supercar once they've won the F1 Championship.


Best regards, south

Well I guess this "supercar" isn't comming any time soon. And there will be no point unless BMW keeps winning.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I am mostly with you on that, but I do think that BMW should at least offer the parts that they were developing for the CSL. In fact, I would probably actually prefer that over a factory CSL to begin with, if I were in the market for a track car.



Its more about the focus of the M Division than it is the badge. For one thing, the M lineup uses their own engines which are built specifically with performance in mind. But the new X5 and X6 models will (almost surely) use a retuned N64 which is a turbo V8 with a 7k RPM redline and thus not really what M is all about. Sure, the old M5 used a lower revving V8 which was based on the N62 but all current cars use high-revving M specific motors. If the X5 and X6 do arrive as M models this progress will be lost, IMHO. It could very well open the door to an N64 powered F10 M5, which I personally will see as a big step backward. The next step after that would be a N54 powered F30 M3. Do you see the concern? I am not against turbocharging but I think M needs to develop their own forced induction system tailored to the S65 and/or S85 to preserve the brand.

Aside from that, these models will probably not get a wider body with wider track like M models are know for also (if spy shots are accurate). Again, more brand dilution. Just because it is an SUV does not mean it should be ok to get away without the full M treatment. Now having said all that, I am personally not convinced these SUVs will be badged Ms anyway (and have a bet to that effect). But, if it turns out they are then, I believe there is reason for concern as I have outlined above.

I'm not really worried about that. What //M developers for Xers does not have to affect the ordinary //M cars. SUVs and passenger cars are different. Low end torque is favored in SUVs while high reving power is generally prefered on passenger cars. Just because //M made an engine for an SUV, it doesn't mean that the engine will go into the coupes.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

I'm not really worried about that. What //M developers for Xers does not have to affect the ordinary //M cars. SUVs and passenger cars are different. Low end torque is favored in SUVs while high reving power is generally prefered on passenger cars. Just because //M made an engine for an SUV, it doesn't mean that the engine will go into the coupes.

True enough. We will just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

True enough. We will just have to wait and see how it all plays out.

See even if our worst fear becomes reality... the next M3/5/6/roadster did indeed recieve one of those lazy, low reving engine... we'll just go for something else. With //M enthusists moving to other makes, they'll soon learn to make something that suits our taste.

And think positive... the next //M is still a long away... Just enjoy you E9x for now... who know... by then (if all works out in our favor)... we might be shopping in Ferrari dealerships.