ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by US///M3

As a car guy if you thought you'll be helping a loyal customer by including an AFR,a fuel pressure and a boost gauge needed in a high boost application in the build while you had the car for months and He'll pay for the labor and parts , why not do it?

3 superchargers, that's a lot of money and you cant even install the gauges needed on the last build that the customer was goin to pay for anyway.

Why some of your kits come with intercoolers and why not just have your customers get the ic's installed on their own?

I believe AJ and I have been very clear that we do not sell or install boost gauges for customers custom projects. I believe we were also very clear in our previous posts that we informed the customer that this was his responsibility. Im not sure how much more clear I can make it for you.

[stevens]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

First two engines did not get damaged from lack of fuel, they were simply overboosted and eventually gave out. The first engine ran 67000 miles with substantial overboost on a 625 setup (9+PSI), and the second engine was massively overboosted to 11+PSI for a drag race event which is a sure engine killer. The customer chose to do this on his own despite us telling him exactly what happens if he does. All that mattered to Sergei was to win the event, at the expense of a S65 engine. A lot of customers are like this, they do not care about consequences of overboosting when warned by us. Until it actually blows up that is, then it is usually someone elses fault even if we told them up front exactly what would happen.

ESS does not normally build custom setups at all, but we have occasionally done special jobs for some race customers like Sergei and Drew. Sergei contracted us to supply a built VT3 spec S65 engine, and install it in his car along with a new high capacity fuel system and a 13-14PSI pulley configuration along with matching software. We did exactly that and told him there are no warranty stated or implied and that every aspect of the new engines operation must be monitored when running it hard and to not run it hard until this equipment was installed. We do not sell or supply/install gauges at all, most heavy race customers at this level have their own preference of what they like and want to use. We simply do the engine job they specify exactly as they specify and the rest is up to them. If they explode their engine/transmission or driveline down the road, that is entirely their own problem on a custom race build.

Thanks for correcting on the other 2 engines, still doesnt change my stance, it should of been on the first engine, and I still dont think this new one will be safe either

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by stevens

Thanks for correcting on the other 2 engines, still doesnt change my stance, it should of been on the first engine, and I still dont think this new one will be safe either

I completely agree, but at the end of the day you can only advice the customer on what do to. What he ends up doing is entirely up to him.

[Beedub]

not even guna lie, ess always told me to never add boost past what they say, whenever ive approached them about modding my VT@ they've always told me not to, and ive always listened to their advice, the car is and has run perfectly since day one, OP i really feel for you BUT, you didn't listen to clear advice, sadly this has cost you, big props to ESS for helping you out further!

do kinda think it wouldn't have hurt to add the gauges in for OP BUT.... you made it clear you wouldn't install them and fair enough, its not like ess changed their mind, they always said, install gauges in russia......

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

I believe AJ and I have been very clear that we do not sell or install boost gauges for customers custom projects. I believe we were also very clear in our previous posts that we informed the customer that this was his responsibility. Im not sure how much more clear I can make it for you.

So you bought a low miles engine for the op in Germany, install the engine(low cr pistons etc.) + SC, fuel system etc. for him, but you wont install the gauges you feel are required to monitor the engine's data for safe operation.
Makes perfect sense...

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by US///M3

So you bought the engine for the op in Germany, install the engine(low cr pistons etc.) + SC, fuel system etc. for him, but you wont install the gauges you feel are required to monitor the engine's data for safe operation.
Makes perfect sense...

We do not sell or support gauges at all, period. We recommend the EAS setup which can be sourced directly from them if the customer has no preference. The VT3 is not a "kit" or a complete solution from us. It is a prototype "À la carte" menu that is not supported or warrantied in any way. You want to buy a low compression, built motor for race use and a 14PSI pulley/fuel delivery system? We can supply it. What you do with it is entirely your own risk. Again this is not and never will be a "kit" with our approval and guarantee for normal use. It is far to complex and problem prone for that. It is specialized components for high-end racers that know what they are doing and understand the risks involved.

[325rider]

I done understand referencing ESS's negligence for Gauge install and responsibility for this guy's VT3 built motor. He picked it up before finishing, blew the motor due to no gauges. FURTHERMORE, I BET if he had gauges he would have blown the motor regardless in the process of self diagnosing and self doctoring it.

Reading comprehension and literacy get thrown by the wayside on the internet and it makes threads like these a burden to decent companies like ESS. Look at the happy SC customer to unhappy SC customer ratio. Its probably >95:1.

[Kwando]

I guess this is the price you pay to be the fastest for a day.

[tha_good_life]

Originally Posted by Lute

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

We do not sell or support gauges at all, period. We recommend the EAS setup which can be sourced directly from them if the customer has no preference. The VT3 is not a "kit" or a complete solution from us. It is a prototype "À la carte" menu that is not supported or warrantied in any way. You want to buy a low compression, built motor for race use and a 14PSI pulley/fuel delivery system? We can supply it. What you do with it is entirely your own risk. Again this is not and never will be a "kit" with our approval and guarantee for normal use. It is far to complex and problem prone for that. It is specialized components for high-end racers that know what they are doing and understand the risks involved.

It's amazing that you could find someone to come to you for a build with no warranty after He had 2 ESS SC'ed S65 catastrophic engine failures.

You did a bunch of dyno runs without issues, op takes delivery of his car and experiences problems on his way home.
I mean it seems like you'll do just about anything...from getting a used engine, to upgrading the fuel system, rebuilding the engine etc. For a customer.
But installing the gauges that you think are required, that you wont do.

I'm not saying ESS is liable but in good conscience if you are going to build a prototype for a long time customer please make sure you include everything you deem important for the safe operation of the engine.

[GreeKon]

I never understood that. "I'm gonna dump $30k in an upgrade...for a 10sec run." BOOM.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by GreeKon

I never understood that. "I'm gonna dump $30k in an upgrade...for a 10sec run." BOOM.

+1
Thank-God! I'm not into straight line racing in a BMW.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by US///M3

So you bought a low miles engine for the op in Germany, install the engine(low cr pistons etc.) + SC, fuel system etc. for him, but you wont install the gauges you feel are required to monitor the engine's data for safe operation.
Makes perfect sense...

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

We do not sell or support gauges at all, period. We recommend the EAS setup which can be sourced directly from them if the customer has no preference. The VT3 is not a "kit" or a complete solution from us. It is a prototype "À la carte" menu that is not supported or warrantied in any way. You want to buy a low compression, built motor for race use and a 14PSI pulley/fuel delivery system? We can supply it. What you do with it is entirely your own risk. Again this is not and never will be a "kit" with our approval and guarantee for normal use. It is far to complex and problem prone for that. It is specialized components for high-end racers that know what they are doing and understand the risks involved.

If the VT3 "kit" isn't warrantied, how difficult is it to say that we also don't warranty any gauge install as part of this "package?"

Seems weird that critical monitoring device(s) wasn't part of the build, regardless of the excuse that the gauges aren't "supported". It could have saved the OP from damaging a 3rd motor. And who would want the bad publicity from that if all it takes is requiring proper monitoring equipment in place as part of the package? I don't get it, why agree to put together a package like this if it's technically incomplete in your eyes, especially for a repeat customer that has spent big money with you?

Not hating, just a legitimate question in my mind.

[tommy94gt]

Originally Posted by US///M3

It's amazing that you could find someone to come to you for a build with no warranty after He had 2 ESS SC'ed S65 catastrophic engine failures.

That's what stuck out the most to me. If I just blew up 2 engines what will make me build another even riskier one with NO WARRANTY?
Bad situation for all parties involved.

[Mit_Boost]

Nothing against ESS, but I am surprised that they would retail the VT3 and not warranty it out (so long as the motor was built & appropriately tuned under their watchful eyes). I completely understand that the jump from bolt-on VT2 to built motor/aftermarket fueling system VT3 is a serious leap, but there will obviously be people who want to go faster (Izzy, Drew, this Russian Bro & Zim all are running VT3 setups). BUT I can complete understand & agree with ESS that it'd be very difficult to put their name on a product if someone has a non-ESS approved motor builder do the work or they crank the boost up beyond what ESS recommends with their tune.

I'm not sure how Gintani handles their low-compression/Stage 3 builds (assuming they're all built/tuned in-house), AND this isn't to start a brand war, but it's just "something to chew" on since E9x M3 prices are starting to go sub-$40k, that the people who'll be buying these cars are looking to aggressively modify them.

[GreeKon]

Originally Posted by Dashman

The OP was at fault, plain and simple.

NOTHING about this situation is "plain and simple". Thus, we have valid arguments from both sides.

[Mit_Boost]

Side Note -- I 100% agree with whoever said that if you're adding a supercharger onto a very high-revving, aggressive motor that was never designed for FI, that you should probably have a standard set of gauges monitoring AFR (or Lambda), Fuel Pressure & Oil Pressure. Boost is a cool gauge to have, but on a centri-blower it should remain constant since psi is predetermined by pulley size.


Must be nice to have money to carelessly burn through three S65's.

[GreeKon]

Originally Posted by Mit_Boost

Must be nice to have money to carelessly burn through three S65's.

If he had it like that, I doubt he'd be on here bitching about his ordeal.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by SYZ

If the VT3 "kit" isn't warrantied, how difficult is it to say that we also don't warranty any gauge install as part of this "package?"

Seems weird that critical monitoring device(s) wasn't part of the build, regardless of the excuse that the gauges aren't "supported". It could have saved the OP from damaging a 3rd motor. And who would want the bad publicity from that if all it takes is requiring proper monitoring equipment in place as part of the package? I don't get it, why agree to put together a package like this if it's technically incomplete in your eyes, especially for a repeat customer that has spent big money with you?

Not hating, just a legitimate question in my mind.

Thank-you!

[regular guy]

I think gauges are a personal choice. What if the OP doesn't want the EAS gauge? I wouldn't want the EAS gauge. Nothing against that gauge because it looks like one bad ass set up. But my needs are different and I require different gauges for my set up.

I need gauges with data logging capabilities like the PLX gauges that I can download and graph later. I want them all hooked together into a unified soft gauge (just like the AWRON from EAS). But I also want a 0-5V output that can be fed into an analog A&D converter, then converted to CAN bus messages, and data logged with a Video VBox or VBox Pro. I think my needs are more demanding than what's being discussed in this thread.

So $30k build or not, I don't want a vendor to tell me which gauges to use because my needs are different and more demanding. And with those increased demands come increased complexity -- another reason to go this by yourself.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Dashman

Sure it is. If you take the vaseline out of your eyes and the cotton balls out of your ears. There are no valid points from the OP's side. The fact that some of you are siding with someone who has toasted 3 engines and then crys wolf on the fourth is incredible.

Add to that the OP has not provided one shred of proof to counter what ESS has said. Just a lot of belly aching and posturing, with no substance.

You lack reading comprehension or you can't count, there is no fourth engine.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by US///M3

It's amazing that you could find someone to come to you for a build with no warranty after He had 2 ESS SC'ed S65 catastrophic engine failures.

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Sergi

You have been told for a very long time you have no warranty or support on your kits because you have always modified them with additional boost going back to your very first kit which ran a 92mm pulley.

His 1st 2 engines experienced failures b/c dude was running more boost than the kits were designed for, plain and simple. Stop trying to surreptitiously insinuate that ESS was responsible for those failures.