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      02-09-2019, 04:06 PM   #1
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A tale of dynos and mods

We wanted to share my thoughts with the community regarding mods and how they change our output curves

Not entirely sure this is a brilliant idea but there's little hard information out there, so it's nice to share

Cams: there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding cams on the S65.
What you find online is that the Schrick 284 cams allow you to keep vanos but that the 292s don't.
We spoke with Schrick in Germany in person who said in very clear language that the 292 cams had indeed been designed around vanos and that of course they allowed you to keep it. To run 292 Schricks you need their supporting mods from Schrick, special springs and a few other smaller things.


Here are three dynos, all in STD dynojets:
E90 stock, 371whp: this is my E90 DCT totally stock except for pulleys
E90 full, 412whp: this is the same car with:
Bimmerworld stepped headers
Bimmerworld catless xpipe
Karbonius plenum
284 cams
Tune
WR NA is the Alekshop 4.6L stroker, 446whp
4.6L NA engine
284 cams
Catless Akra GT4 exhaust
Tune
(I think that's it)


Lets see those dynos!
We don't have the actual data sheet of the 412 run, only a picture, so we took measurements every 500 rpm. Same deal with the Alekshop car and my stock run. It is obvious this introduces some error but a few hp here and there won't change the conclusions
I'm only interested in 5500 through redline, as that is all a DCT car will use on track




You can see some interesting information here. Specifically, if you focus on how the power climbs in each car as you rev between 7000 and 8500rpm:
-E90 stock makes an additional 11whp
-E90 full makes an additional 27whp
-WR NA makes an additional 21whp

The E90 stock behaves a lot like the WR NA: very little gain after 7000rpm.
It seems like the WR NA desperately needs more breathing up top. At 5500rpm it has 50whp more than the E90 full, at 7000rpm it has 40whp more and at 8500 it has only 34whp more
It looks like a stroker engine needs the 292cam to allow breathing for the 4.6L engine past 7000rpm. However, the E90 full breathes better and closes a lot of the gap with its 284cams
The E90 full continues to increase power as it climbs, but still flattens out at the last 500rpm
5500-7000rpm delta between E90 stock and E90 full stay very much the same, so the 284cams in the E90 full are not making the car peaky

Even with the wrong cams, the Alekshop stroker has a massive advantage in area under the curve from 5500 to 8500rpm

According to the Alekshop thread, the 284cams gave it an additional 24whp vs stock cams. That means that with stock cams a 4.6L stroker falls completely flat on its face, allowing the E90 full to creep up to within 10whp despite having 0.6L less displacement

It seems to me the reason we haven't seen any strokers put out more horses is because of the cams. They require 292cams and never get them!



Someone somewhere is going to chime in and say we've spent more than supercharging. Lets address this early on: we don't care. This car is used for an hour at a time at the track at full tilt, with two fast drivers behind the wheel, and a supercharged engine simply will not function correctly that long without heatsoaking


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      02-09-2019, 04:07 PM   #2
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      02-09-2019, 04:23 PM   #3
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Nice comparison thanks for the effort. I'm sure the Full E90 and WR NA would love some E85 gas to really shine.
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      02-10-2019, 12:33 AM   #4
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Hey Shadow...Who did the tuning, for the 284 cams, on your E90?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis
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      02-10-2019, 09:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It looks like a stroker engine needs the 292cam to allow breathing for the 4.6L engine past 7000rpm.
SYT
Is it possible that the stroker needs larger dia. exhaust pipe setup? Say a full 3" diameter setup? It seems possible that it could be a bottleneck.
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      02-10-2019, 10:39 AM   #6
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This is quite interesting although I'm left wondering what each modification adds to the E90 Full car. What do you estimate are the gains from each mod (i.e., from headers, x-pipe, plenum (with high-flow filter?), and cams)? Can you comment on what the torque curves look like (are there dips/peaks & at what rpm)?

And as SVH pointed out, perhaps the WR NA car could see a nice gain with non-stock headers.

One last question, have you thought about high-flow throttle bodies (e.g., Dinan)? It seems that if you're pushing more air through the engine, perhaps those would help close the gap even further with the WR NA car.
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      02-10-2019, 12:16 PM   #7
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370 with pulleys is nice. My stage 2 catless / intake setup made 330whp on a heartbreaker dyno(dyno dynamics). Accounting for the 12% difference to a dynojet its 370whp.(dyno guy told me dyno dynamics reads about 12% lower then a dyno jet.) Pretty shitty numbers considering the $ to power ratio compared to just pulleys. I really want to hit the 400whp club with full bolt-ons + e85 but I doubt my motor can.

Good information here. I might look into cams later in life.
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      02-10-2019, 08:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buldogge View Post
Hey Shadow...Who did the tuning, for the 284 cams, on your E90?

TIA
-Mark in St. Louis
As the car had a plethora of non-standard mods it spent a day on a dyno with a tuner. Had I had standard mods I would have used a canned tune

PM if you want the tuner's name. Tuning seems to be the biggest black hole of information and I don't want to start WW3 here.
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      02-10-2019, 08:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8500RPM View Post
Nice comparison thanks for the effort. I'm sure the Full E90 and WR NA would love some E85 gas to really shine.
I'm sure, but the cars are for the track. I wouldn't run E85, ever, on any car I own... it makes me sad to use E10 at the pump
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      02-10-2019, 08:06 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVH View Post
Is it possible that the stroker needs larger dia. exhaust pipe setup? Say a full 3" diameter setup? It seems possible that it could be a bottleneck.
It's definitely possible but note that just changing the cams they got 24whp! That's a ton from a single mod.
Personally I would never build a stroker without headers but that's just me
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      02-10-2019, 08:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantarM3 View Post
This is quite interesting although I'm left wondering what each modification adds to the E90 Full car. What do you estimate are the gains from each mod (i.e., from headers, x-pipe, plenum (with high-flow filter?), and cams)? Can you comment on what the torque curves look like (are there dips/peaks & at what rpm)?

And as SVH pointed out, perhaps the WR NA car could see a nice gain with non-stock headers.

One last question, have you thought about high-flow throttle bodies (e.g., Dinan)? It seems that if you're pushing more air through the engine, perhaps those would help close the gap even further with the WR NA car.
Yes, true apples to apples comparisons are almost impossible. With the Karbonius intake I did a proper comparison on the same dyno and same day. It gave 9whp which is pretty significant.

On my E92 I did not do a baseline but with HFCs and a tune and pulleys it got 376 IIRC. Same day as the E90 base. But if you look at the curve it has additional hp in the midrange and also it is a 6MT car so you can't do a good comparison to a DCT one (gearing is completely different)

Torque curves are flat like usual with the S65 in the 5500-8500 range.

I have thought of the Dinan throttle bodies several times... but on the S54 I never recall seeing a dyno where someone gained horses from that... indeed in every case it actually lost horses. It's a bit counterintuitive but if I have to choose where to spend 3k I'll do cams

Last edited by SYT_Shadow; 02-11-2019 at 08:28 AM.
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      02-11-2019, 11:13 AM   #12
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Really love reading threads like this!
I reverted my E90 M3 back to complete stock. Doing a bunch of engine maintenance on it, then plan to dyno stock and every step of the way with the mods to follow.

Are you able to source the DRF files for your stock and full runs from the dyno shop?

When I went from stock to Evolve XPipe/Stage 2 Tune, my car gained roughly 45whp at max values. With how sensitive these motors are to IAT, EGT, Oil Temps, did you do any data logging to see what ignition targets you were hitting?
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      02-11-2019, 12:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipm3 View Post
Really love reading threads like this!
I reverted my E90 M3 back to complete stock. Doing a bunch of engine maintenance on it, then plan to dyno stock and every step of the way with the mods to follow.

Are you able to source the DRF files for your stock and full runs from the dyno shop?

When I went from stock to Evolve XPipe/Stage 2 Tune, my car gained roughly 45whp at max values. With how sensitive these motors are to IAT, EGT, Oil Temps, did you do any data logging to see what ignition targets you were hitting?
I don't have the E90 full file. I requested it during 8 months and finally gave up. I have a picture I shot which I used to get the data but it isn't 100% precise.
I have the DRF of the stock run but that isn't very interesting. I also have the DRFs of the E92 both with and without the Karbonius plenum.
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      02-11-2019, 01:14 PM   #14
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are the "special parts" required for the 292's just valve springs to prevent float?

i have a very vague understanding of specific internals from engine to engine, so i might not be using the right terminology or context...
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      02-11-2019, 01:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
are the "special parts" required for the 292's just valve springs to prevent float?

i have a very vague understanding of specific internals from engine to engine, so i might not be using the right terminology or context...
Here is their note, word by word

if you use it you need our valve springs, valve keys, and spring retainer.
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      02-11-2019, 02:11 PM   #16
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      02-11-2019, 02:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
It's definitely possible but note that just changing the cams they got 24whp! That's a ton from a single mod.
Personally I would never build a stroker without headers but that's just me
Yeah if there's power on the table with the 4.0 it follows there's some left to find with the 4.6
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      02-11-2019, 04:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I'm sure, but the cars are for the track. I wouldn't run E85, ever, on any car I own... it makes me sad to use E10 at the pump
Strange to see you write this. I thought a track car would love E85 fuel on those hot days.
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      02-11-2019, 04:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yes, true apples to apples comparisons are almost impossible. With the Karbonius intake I did a proper comparison on the same dyno and same day. It gave 9whp which is pretty significant.

On my E92 I did not do a baseline but with HFCs and a tune and pulleys it got 376 IIRC. Same day as the E90 base. But if you look at the curve it has additional hp in the midrange and also it is a 6MT car so you can't do a good comparison to a DCT one (gearing is completely different)

Torque curves are flat like usual with the S65 in the 5500-8500 range.

I have thought of the Dinan throttle bodies several times... but on the S54 I never recall seeing a dyno where someone gained horses from that... indeed in every case it actually lost horses. It's a bit counterintuitive but if I have to choose where to spend 3k I'll do cams
Nick piper's 288/280 Schrick cams/CSL intake car (who I'm sure you remember) showed about a 5-7HP increase w/the Dinan ITB's. I'm sure that I could dig up his dyno somewhere if I was more motivated.
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      02-11-2019, 05:04 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8500RPM View Post
Strange to see you write this. I thought a track car would love E85 fuel on those hot days.
But you can't buy E85 at any of the tracks I've been at. Besides the car has to run an hour at a time which if a full tank of regular gas. Imagine E85!
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      02-11-2019, 05:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stosh1 View Post
Nick piper's 288/280 Schrick cams/CSL intake car (who I'm sure you remember) showed about a 5-7HP increase w/the Dinan ITB's. I'm sure that I could dig up his dyno somewhere if I was more motivated.
This morning I was looking at a dyno of a S65 stroker that had a zero hp delta. Negative but that's just the noise.
I do remember the build. I suppose you're Stash1?
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      02-11-2019, 05:06 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8500RPM View Post
Strange to see you write this. I thought a track car would love E85 fuel on those hot days.
And with an ethanol content monitor and tune that varies timing accordingly, it would safely add power. Most modern fuel injection stuff is ethanol compatible -/major car makers have been doing flex fuel vehicles for years. Unfortunately the nearest ethanol to me is 75 miles away. I have been running water/meth injection with a tune that accommodates it and a failsafe for several years. Adds up to 5 degrees timing under certain conditions, about the same as a 100 octane tune but without the race gas cost since it flows only above a certain injector duty cycle. Still lower octane and more expensive to use than ethanol.
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