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      06-15-2019, 10:08 PM   #1
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Wheel Spacer - Vibration

So, I have tried everything to get 12mm spacers to work for me. I have new tires, had rebalancing done multiple times, had wheels checked for true by a wheel shop, moved all of my spacers around and even tried new from spacers.

With spacers = wheel wobble at ~110KM/hr (Macht Schnell and Apex)

Without spacers = no wheel wobble...



So, I am at the point where I am going to take out my wheel studs and go back to no spacers and bolts. Very frustrating. Especially since I had 20mm spacers on my old 328i and they were fine (Turner).

Anyone else have any suggestions??

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      06-16-2019, 12:36 AM   #2
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1.try to torque the nuts with the tire touching the ground but not fully on the ground

2. Have used h&r spacers on 2 cars and they never caused vibration. Stick with stuff made in Germany 🇩🇪

That’s my advice

Here’s a link to black ones I got for my black zcp rims.

H&R (2475725SW TRAK+ DR Wheel Adapter Bolt, Black, 12mm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5HWRNS..._4xDbDbHTHDVZB
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      06-16-2019, 09:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msan View Post
1.try to torque the nuts with the tire touching the ground but not fully on the ground

2. Have used h&r spacers on 2 cars and they never caused vibration. Stick with stuff made in Germany 🇩🇪

That’s my advice

Here’s a link to black ones I got for my black zcp rims.

H&R (2475725SW TRAK+ DR Wheel Adapter Bolt, Black, 12mm https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I5HWRNS..._4xDbDbHTHDVZB
I will give it another try today.
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      06-16-2019, 10:25 AM   #4
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I had the exact same thing with my spacers so I went to get my tires road force balanced. They told me one of the wheels was bent and the shimmy was still there after they balanced the tires. I was going to get it fixed but before that I had a set of KW V1 coilover installed (which I love) and the vibration is 98% gone (nice side effect). I'm still going to get the wheel fixed down the line but thought I would share my experience.
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      06-16-2019, 11:41 AM   #5
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Spacers will not cause vibration on their own absent another issue. I can honestly say that I have never experienced an issue with a spacer Accross multiple cars, platforms, wheels, etc.

Possible reasons include:

Rust, dirt, grease or something else on the spacer, hub or mounting surface of rim or rotor hat (causing it to not sit even / flat onto mounting surfaces)

Torquing the wheel nuts with weight on the wheel (load could cause wheel and spacer to be misaligned and not sit flat and square). It's best to be at least near torque spec while wheel in the air - unloaded. Impact driver is best way to do this since the front wheel will spin freely.

Faulty spacer that isn't perfectly flat. I only use Turner Motorsports or the new Future Classic spacers.

10mm spacer used with a hub or wheel that doesn't allow it to fully seat

Use of a spacer in a size that eliminates the wheels contact with the hub - resulting in a lug-centric fit instead of hub-centric. For example a 7mm spacer can not be hub centric unless you install hub extenders.

Wheel has a bend or some run-out (could be very slight and only detectable with road force balancer). Not all balancers are created equally.

Tire could have some run-out; AKA not perfectly round. May be correctable via road force balancer.

Tires could have uneven wear causing a vibration

Tires could have damage such as a sidewall bubble from an impact.
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      06-16-2019, 11:52 AM   #6
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In my case I think it was a combo of my 82,000 shocks and slightly bent wheel.
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      06-16-2019, 02:12 PM   #7
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Could be bad spacers. Try using a razor blade paint scraper to clean your hubs and the back of your wheels. I use several different spacers on one of my cars depending on the wheels I am using without issues. Most people don’t have issues.
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      06-16-2019, 05:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Could be bad spacers. Try using a razor blade paint scraper to clean your hubs and the back of your wheels. I use several different spacers on one of my cars depending on the wheels I am using without issues. Most people don’t have issues.
In the past, this has been my experience. Spacers have never been a problem for me. That is why this is just so frustrating.

I took the studs out today. Cleaned the wheel seating surface as well as the face of the hubs with some scotch-brite. Applied a little anti-seize to the hub centre and mounted the wheels with factory bolts (no spacers of course). It drives like a champ. Butter smooth.

I will clean up the spacers and likely buy a set of longer bolts (for how often I change tires, studs are not needed) and test again in the future.

Thanks for the suggestions.

And some further info:

Same thing happened with old PS2s as well as my new PS4S so I do not think it is tire related.

Wheels were checked for true at a wheel shop when I had them re-finished last winter. Unless the shop lied to me, the wheels should be OK.

Wheels were balanced with a top-end (not road force) balancer.

I use an impact when mounting wheels and I follow the proper pattern to ensure an even seating. I complete the final torque on the ground but the bolts typically turn only another few degrees as my impact is just about perfect for wheel bolts.

The shimmy is not a slight shimmy. Without spacers, car is awesome. With spacers, car has a very bad steering wheel wobble at about 105-115 KPH.

Given 2 different brands of spacers have the same problem, I think it is an installation issue as discussed above. My hubs are a little rusted so before I try them again, I will really clean up the surfaces so the spacers seat properly, especially around the hub centre ring.

Cheers,
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      06-16-2019, 11:24 PM   #9
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I had my tires and spacers installed by a reputable shop but they did not road force balance. It wasn't until I went to the road force balance shop that they were able to find the bent rim.
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      06-17-2019, 09:26 AM   #10
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You might try having your tire shop use one of your spacers when he spins the wheel onto the balance machine. Some machines put weight closer to one wheel lip or the other based on torsion/vibration measured on the spindle
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      06-17-2019, 06:31 PM   #11
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Any chance you have odd wheels that have a chamfered lip that does not exactly match the spacer? This was an issue with certain wheels and E36M3 spacers years ago. The wheel has a chamfer that must match the hub extension on the spacer. Usually not an issue, but there have been incompatibilities before.
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      06-17-2019, 10:03 PM   #12
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Oh yeah that’s definitely a thing that can happen. I’ve had friends try to make that work and fail
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      06-18-2019, 12:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Any chance you have odd wheels that have a chamfered lip that does not exactly match the spacer? This was an issue with certain wheels and E36M3 spacers years ago. The wheel has a chamfer that must match the hub extension on the spacer. Usually not an issue, but there have been incompatibilities before.
I have that issue. ECS tuning 10mm spacers making my car vibrate above 120kms/hr. Also friend on his e46 m3 had same isssue with these spacers. The wheel doesn’t want to sit flush fully on the spacer.
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      06-19-2019, 01:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
Any chance you have odd wheels that have a chamfered lip that does not exactly match the spacer? This was an issue with certain wheels and E36M3 spacers years ago. The wheel has a chamfer that must match the hub extension on the spacer. Usually not an issue, but there have been incompatibilities before.
My wheels are 359s.

Cheers,
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      06-19-2019, 02:37 PM   #15
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I had a similar issue and was baffled. It turned out my tires was out of balance on the road force balance scale. It was reading over 45-60lbs! The issue was the bead on the tire was not fully seated. It looked visually seated from normal check but when the 2nd tire shop (the one I should've gone to in the first place) inspected it, saw it was slightly off. After reseating the tire and road force balancing, it dropped to 15lbs and under for each wheel.

After that, 15 to 20mm spacers didn't even make any vibrations at all. Prior to this, spacers would cause the vibrations but no spacers would have no vibrations.
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      06-19-2019, 04:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derbo View Post
I had a similar issue and was baffled. It turned out my tires was out of balance on the road force balance scale. It was reading over 45-60lbs! The issue was the bead on the tire was not fully seated. It looked visually seated from normal check but when the 2nd tire shop (the one I should've gone to in the first place) inspected it, saw it was slightly off. After reseating the tire and road force balancing, it dropped to 15lbs and under for each wheel.

After that, 15 to 20mm spacers didn't even make any vibrations at all. Prior to this, spacers would cause the vibrations but no spacers would have no vibrations.
i had the same exact experience.
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      06-25-2019, 12:58 AM   #17
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I've had terrible experiences with MS spacers, I have two sets that vibrate. I contacted the vendor who sold it to me but shipping it back to them is ridiculously expensive from Canada and not worth it AT ALL.
ECS tuning spacers, BMS, and all those other smaller brands don't really make good spacers at all.

Stick to brands like Eibach and H&R.
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      06-25-2019, 10:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GORDON.M3 View Post
I've had terrible experiences with MS spacers, I have two sets that vibrate. I contacted the vendor who sold it to me but shipping it back to them is ridiculously expensive from Canada and not worth it AT ALL.
ECS tuning spacers, BMS, and all those other smaller brands don't really make good spacers at all.

Stick to brands like Eibach and H&R.
Lesson learned for sure. I am going to have my wheels road force balanced and I hope to be able to use the spacers during balancing. Perhaps it is my wheels and/or tires...

Cheers,
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      06-25-2019, 11:10 AM   #19
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Any chance that this is caused by a shitty stud? Should I try longer bolts instead of studs and nuts?
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      06-25-2019, 11:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scharbag View Post
Any chance that this is caused by a shitty stud? Should I try longer bolts instead of studs and nuts?
I do not see any way that a fastener would cause this - unless it was not installed or became loose. Studs are better than bolts IMO. However keep in mind that they are a wear item and should be replaced periodically. I replace mine every 2 years.
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      06-25-2019, 12:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slicer View Post
I do not see any way that a fastener would cause this - unless it was not installed or became loose. Studs are better than bolts IMO. However keep in mind that they are a wear item and should be replaced periodically. I replace mine every 2 years.
Yeah, with hub-centric and tapered seat lugs, I was on the same wavelength. All my studs were tight when I removed them (red lock-tite is a bitch).

I did talk to one shop locally and he said that on his M3 that he chased this issue as well. He found that it was the control arm bushings. Same thing on another customer's car recently when on the track. Without spacers, it was fine. With spaers, the car would get a steering wheel wobble. He said to test this by getting to the speed with the wobble and then turning to load the suspension a bit. If the wobble gets better as you load the bushing, then it is likely not the spacers, wheels or tires. I will give that a try.

I think I still might get a road force balance done just to cross that item off the list once and for all.

Thanks again for everyone's help and suggestions.

Cheers,
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      06-25-2019, 02:34 PM   #22
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longer lever arm on the suspension bushings will definitely exacerbate any play in them
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