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      08-16-2018, 02:18 PM   #67
UncleWede
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
This is why the older members are good to have around - we know where all the good stuff is buried.
Did somebody call "OG"?
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      08-16-2018, 02:43 PM   #68
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I started looking for another job and got one that paid more (still less than my coworker was making but more than I was) within a short time, after which I put in my 2 weeks. This was a little over 2 years ago.
Then how is ignorance bliss if you improved yourself through knowledge?
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      08-16-2018, 02:47 PM   #69
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Then how is ignorance bliss if you improved yourself through knowledge?
I had to move to a different location - sell my house, leave my friends, etc. I have a new house and new friends where I am now but I *was* happy with my work and what I was making before I realized there was that big of a discrepancy for the same work just based on me being loyal and staying there for 9+ years while the other guy had worked there, left and hopped a few companies, then came back.

Hence the ignorance is bliss. If I had not found out, I would likely still be happy there and, truth be told, I made enough there to live comfortably even without the increase I ended up getting.
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      08-16-2018, 02:52 PM   #70
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Says the guy with 3 vehicles, one being a $60K+ 2016 truck.
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      08-16-2018, 02:55 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
You still know where the good stuff is though, don't you?
He has a chicken inserting mirror.

A huge objection to you guys ruining a thread without me. Your hair ain't glossy enough for me to love you through this crisis!
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:00 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
Appreciated. Apparently I really suck at trying to find things on here.
Now I'm reading that too. It appears that you being a lady of my dreams is less weird than everything else I've written here.
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:06 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
A huge objection to you guys ruining a thread without me. Your hair ain't glossy enough for me to love you through this crisis!
That works for me... I'm Bald...

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      08-16-2018, 03:14 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Now I'm reading that too. It appears that you being a lady of my dreams is less weird than everything else I've written here.
You've definitely calmed down in a bit in 2 years.


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Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
That works for me... I'm Bald...

Same, although my lustrous cranium has a high refractive index.
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      08-16-2018, 03:16 PM   #75
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That works for me... I'm Bald...

Not true, Judy! Your hair just isn't glossy today! Switch the conditioner to the one you used to use and ... *Anna sees who she's quoting*

I'd erase the above shit, I thought I was quoting an other bald poster but I have no skin on my thumb on the area it takes to press that key so I'll just live through this humiliation.
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:17 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
You've definitely calmed down in a bit in 2 years.




Same, although my lustrous cranium has a high refractive index.
You fucking bitch! Take that back!
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:20 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
You fucking bitch! Take that back!
Which part?



and probably not.....



.......I still love you though
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      08-16-2018, 03:34 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Not_Judy View Post
Which part?



and probably not.....



.......I still love you though
The calming down. That was truly offensive.
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:37 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by stbm5 View Post
simply not true. many employers will take advantage until you present them with the fact that someone will value you more.
Not to be argumentative, but it is true because it is my personal experience and response every time in these circumstances. I didn’t generalize to others, and I do understand that some may entertain competing offers for whatever reason. I do not. I simply congratulate the soon-to-be-former employee on their new position and agree to an appropriate notice period. Door shut tight.

Hypothetically, if an employee had really unique skills or other contributions such that they would be very difficult or impossible to replace, I can understand a manager trying to retain them, but if it was me I’d sleep with one eye open from then on, so to speak. Personally if I had employees like that I would proactively be working to retain them. (The nature of my industry is that there are not people or roles like that, but I still try to be sure my employees are engaged, happy at work, utilized and fairly compensated, as well as have continuing opportunities to develop new skills and move up if they want)
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      08-16-2018, 03:38 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Uber Commuter View Post
Just to confirm, you know that was posted in jest, right?
Nope! I don't know you well enough to have known if you were serious or just joking. Thanks for clarifying though.

Regardless, the video brings up a valid point for discussion. It's heavily slanted towards leveraging the emotions of young employees or those who have never (and likely will never) find themselves in a management role with fiduciary responsibilities to the company.

It's easy for folks to point the finger at "management" as the source of all their woes. The idea that "management" is conspiring to screw employees over and hold wages down just to be d*cks, just because they can, just because of some sick power trip is totally misinformed. My job is singularly focused on making money for the company I work for. That's it. Every decision needs to be grounded in that. Period. Hiring someone for $45,000/year as opposed to $50,000/year is not something I do because I'm a jerk, it's because below $45,000/yr I struggle to find good candidates. I spend more effort recruiting and waste more time training someone who isnt the right fit that I ultimately then have to let go. If I can attract multiple candidates at $45,000/year for a job and I have a hard time picking between 4 top candidates, why on Earth would I pay $50,000/year?

So all my employees can go share salaries to their heart's content. If Shelly is making $45,000/year and finds out Brad is making $48,000/year, she's welcome to come talk to me but her salary is what it is and I'm not going to increase it just because. Not when I had 3, 4, 5 qualified candidates lined up to do her job when I hired her. Not trying to be a jerk, it's just the reality of my company needing to make money. It's why we are all here.
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      08-16-2018, 03:39 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Did somebody call "OG"?
I've been in my hole for a week now and I've thought about you often.

Nothing superficial such as your beautiful mane or how subtle wind makes it extra fluffy. More like I'm really glad I met you via this forum and I'm blessed to know you.

I was in deep shit then so you can forever claim I owe you a favor now.
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 03:52 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by DETRoadster View Post
Nope! I don't know you well enough to have known if you were serious or just joking. Thanks for clarifying though.

Regardless, the video brings up a valid point for discussion. It's heavily slanted towards leveraging the emotions of young employees or those who have never (and likely will never) find themselves in a management role with fiduciary responsibilities to the company.

It's easy for folks to point the finger at "management" as the source of all their woes. The idea that "management" is conspiring to screw employees over and hold wages down just to be d*cks, just because they can, just because of some sick power trip is totally misinformed. My job is singularly focused on making money for the company I work for. That's it. Every decision needs to be grounded in that. Period. Hiring someone for $45,000/year as opposed to $50,000/year is not something I do because I'm a jerk, it's because below $45,000/yr I struggle to find good candidates. I spend more effort recruiting and waste more time training someone who isnt the right fit that I ultimately then have to let go. If I can attract multiple candidates at $45,000/year for a job and I have a hard time picking between 4 top candidates, why on Earth would I pay $50,000/year?

So all my employees can go share salaries to their heart's content. If Shelly is making $45,000/year and finds out Brad is making $48,000/year, she's welcome to come talk to me but her salary is what it is and I'm not going to increase it just because. Not when I had 3, 4, 5 qualified candidates lined up to do her job when I hired her. Not trying to be a jerk, it's just the reality of my company needing to make money. It's why we are all here.
To put this into a different context ... we did a look at a previous employer of mine at the average tenure of an employee and it was ~10 years. The average loaded salary at that point was around $50k. In other words, the hiring decision was a half million dollar investment. If an employer is going to invest that kind of money, it has a vested interest in setting salary levels that are going to attract good candidates, and provide salary progression that will retain them. But, those processes are what they are and should be designed around objective metrics. To simply give someone a raise because of an alleged disparity becomes counter-productive.

Last edited by JohnnyCanuck; 08-16-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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      08-16-2018, 04:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Did somebody call "OG"?

Not exactly. I said "Older members". But given your advanced age, you rightly answered the call. You go girl.



But yes, the original group has dwindled from what I remember being older guys when I first joined. Now I figure I'm probably viewed as part of the OG (like you) just due to passing of time and members, even though its not really true.

OG will always be OG...just not sure that there's any of them actually left that post on here...or even how long these forums have been around for.
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he's Canadian. By international law we all must worship him and all other products of the country.
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      08-16-2018, 04:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
I've been in my hole for a week now and I've thought about you often.

Nothing superficial such as your beautiful mane or how subtle wind makes it extra fluffy. More like I'm really glad I met you via this forum and I'm blessed to know you.

I was in deep shit then so you can forever claim I owe you a favor now.
What comes around goes around. I've leaned on your shoulder a fair amount of time

UNLESS I discover you thinking about me but calling me Judy, AGAIN
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      08-16-2018, 04:42 PM   #85
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What comes around goes around. I've leaned on your shoulder a fair amount of time

UNLESS I discover you thinking about me but calling me Judy, AGAIN

Thoughts and quoting!! I got no skin in my fingers, I ain't erasing shit!

When I get my fingers working, so basically (or basementally in my case) when I stop digging and rest for as long as it takes for this old to grow new skin, I'll pm you.
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You're still a little new here, so I'll let you in on a little secret. Whenever Lups types gibberish, this is an opportunity for you to imagine it to be whatever you'd like it to be.
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      08-16-2018, 04:45 PM   #86
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I'm curious, then. How do you feel one should come to you in order to convince you they deserve more for what they're doing (yes, that situation exists!). Others here have shot down the salary data approach, and you're shooting down the harder approach. I'm curious how you would do it.
Both are bad approaches, in my opinion and experience. Salary data is always backward looking: Mercer, for example, can’t really even give us 2017 data yet. But the market for some jobs is moving fast, so I talk to my peers (if you haven’t started developing a network, get on that), and look at our recent hires and those who have left for other jobs and reported their new comp. Just trying to get as current, and complete data as I can. What you bring in from Salary.com or other sites is going to be dated and likely inferior to what I already have. So, as others have already commented, a manager is likely to discount or dismiss it.

What I respond to and respect is an employee who keeps me informed on what s/he is working on, thus building a frequency of communication and trust (I meet weekly with each of my direct reports to give them this opportunity - the time is theirs to decide how best to use it). From that base, the best approach is to ask what I’m working on, or worrying about, or has me concerned about the company or department. Then they offer to help solve the problem(s), almost like an interview. “Well, I’ve been working on these things for you already and maybe if we tried A, B or C it might help”. “Could I jump in on that and maybe dig up some research or talk to other companies to see what they’ve done...”. This will show me that you can think beyond your current job duties (however broadened they may already be) and that you are interested in the company’s future and success, not just your paycheck. Then it is an easy step to talk title and salary. TL,DR: Keep it all about the employer’s needs and not your own.

In my case, if you do as I just described, I’ll get to your salary before you ask. I try to be proactive about that with my employees - they are all excellent performers who work hard and go beyond normal expectations (I never expect long hours or weekend work). I reward them at every opportunity both financially and with positive comments, etc. Since I have the salary data, I can easily determine what you are now worth with your added responsibilities, and I know what it costs to hire and train a replacement for your tasks (but you’ve become so much more than a task fulfilled to me). So it is rare that my direct reports get out of sync to the extent you are.

Funny thing is, in my observation the more toxic the work environment, the more you have to pay to retain employees. My employees might be fine with lower pay, but I’m not taking that risk.

You wrote quite a bit about managers, work, etc. I applaud your efforts to figure this crazy work world out and make some sense of it. My advice would be to frame your statements as hypotheses and continue to test them. Some may be false, some may be specific to your situation/company, others may be generally or widely true.

You sound as if you have already given up on your current employer. If so, then what is holding you back likely is fear. Pretend you just got fired and get off your ass and go get a better job! But don’t burn bridges, networks have a surprising way of showing up to help at just the right moment.
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      08-16-2018, 04:48 PM   #87
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Two movies I suggest to many:
Family business, watch The Godfather. Even family can be let go, but be Tom.
General business, watch How to Succeed in Business...” a 1960s musical. Corny but remarkably true! Especially the part about getting close to the administrative staff, who know everything and have all kinds of subtle influence.
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      08-17-2018, 04:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by knowthebattle View Post
Says the guy with 3 vehicles, one being a $60K+ 2016 truck.
This doesn't really pertain to the discussion, I owned 3 at my old job as well, hence the "living comfortably".

I know this may shock you... but I like cars and it helps when you buy and hold I have bought all of them new, was Z4 poor for a while a long time ago. Now it's super cheap (<$1,000/yr insurance, <$200/yr registration, average ~$500/yr maintenance/upkeep) so I can afford something new and nice as well to daily over the winter.
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