PowerChip VS ESS (NA TUNE)

[sales@ESSTuning]

To make it easy for Mike we will do the testing method he wants with one stock car. We are also very busy but we will make time for something as interesting as this test. Below is the test method Mike has proposed so we will agree to it.

1) 3 Baseline runs stock
2) Have ESS tune it
3) 3 Runs ESS Tune
4) Flash ECU Back to Stock
5) 3 Runs with Stock Again
6) Powerchip Tune
7) 3 Runs with Powerchip

At the end of the day all we request is that the timing and AFR's are recorded and shared with the public.

The reason we want all data shared is because we are aware of all the tricks used in this business to make power. On this car the most common method is to lean out the AFR's and to run a very agressive timing target. Both of these can make a little power on a dyno but they are unsafe for the motor. The way this control system works is it will always self correct on the fly. This is why custom tuning a stock car is BS. The only way around this is to set a target beyond what the car can adapt around. For example the MSS60 can advance timing or pull timing when needed to to make optimum, safe power. The problem is the ECU has adaptation limits. If you set the timing target higher than what the ECU can adapt down you can force the car to run advanced timing even when the ECU knows it is not safe and is trying to protect the motor. We simply want to make sure that the PC "custom" or standard tune does not use these unsafe tactics to make power. If the PC tune can make more power than our tune while running close to factory AFR and timing levels then we will be impressed. We know our AFR's are very close to factory and we also know our timing is very close to factory so we have no problem sharing this info with the public.

[FStop7]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

To make it easy for Mike we will do the testing method he wants with one stock car. We are also very busy but we will make time for something as interesting as this test. Below is the test method Mike has proposed so we will agree to it.

1) 3 Baseline runs stock
2) Have ESS tune it
3) 3 Runs ESS Tune
4) Flash ECU Back to Stock
5) 3 Runs with Stock Again
6) Powerchip Tune
7) 3 Runs with Powerchip

At the end of the day all we request is that the timing and AFR's are recorded and shared with the public.

The reason we want all data shared is because we are aware of all the tricks used in this business to make power. On this car the most common method is to lean out the AFR's and to run a very agressive timing target. Both of these can make a little power on a dyno but they are unsafe for the motor. The way this control system works is it will always self correct on the fly. This is why custom tuning a stock car is BS. The only way around this is to set a target beyond what the car can adapt around. For example the MSS60 can advance timing or pull timing when needed to to make optimum, safe power. The problem is the ECU has adaptation limits. If you set the timing target higher than what the ECU can adapt down you can force the car to run advanced timing even when the ECU knows it is not safe and is trying to protect the motor. We simply want to make sure that the PC "custom" or standard tune does not use these unsafe tactics to make power. If the PC tune can make more power than our tune while running close to factory AFR and timing levels then we will be impressed. We know our AFR's are very close to factory and we also know our timing is very close to factory so we have no problem sharing this info with the public.

Sounds like a perfect way to test.

[ThorPR]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

To make it easy for Mike we will do the testing method he wants with one stock car. We are also very busy but we will make time for something as interesting as this test. Below is the test method Mike has proposed so we will agree to it.

1) 3 Baseline runs stock
2) Have ESS tune it
3) 3 Runs ESS Tune
4) Flash ECU Back to Stock
5) 3 Runs with Stock Again
6) Powerchip Tune
7) 3 Runs with Powerchip

At the end of the day all we request is that the timing and AFR's are recorded and shared with the public.

The reason we want all data shared is because we are aware of all the tricks used in this business to make power. On this car the most common method is to lean out the AFR's and to run a very agressive timing target. Both of these can make a little power on a dyno but they are unsafe for the motor. The way this control system works is it will always self correct on the fly. This is why custom tuning a stock car is BS. The only way around this is to set a target beyond what the car can adapt around. For example the MSS60 can advance timing or pull timing when needed to to make optimum, safe power. The problem is the ECU has adaptation limits. If you set the timing target higher than what the ECU can adapt down you can force the car to run advanced timing even when the ECU knows it is not safe and is trying to protect the motor. We simply want to make sure that the PC "custom" or standard tune does not use these unsafe tactics to make power. If the PC tune can make more power than our tune while running close to factory AFR and timing levels then we will be impressed. We know our AFR's are very close to factory and we also know our timing is very close to factory so we have no problem sharing this info with the public.

How much will heat soak play a part in the testing? If one tune gets tested in the end, will the prior runs not reduce the power of that tune due to the obvious heat soak generated during the testing? The first couple of runs will always create more power when the car is cool and not overheating.

Just a curious question...

[biglare]

I read this thread early yesterday and have now read to get caught up. This is my opinion and view. I obviously have the ESS VT2-575 S/C, their S/C tune and DCT software on my car, so I cannot speak to the ESS N/A tune. I jumped right to the S/C. I am just an ESS customer and have no affiliation with them other than buying their S/C kit, tune and DCT software upgrade.

I am very interested to see this challenge happen. I don't necessarily think it is a matter of who "wins", but rather who actually makes the power (safely) that they claim to make. This is a great opportunity for both PC and ESS to compare and post up "ALL" data and results for the public to view. This is a great opportunity for both companies to utilize the forum for everyone's benefit with the posted results. I also don't see why either company would not want to travel to the other's location to make this happen. After all we are talking about a hour flight and this can be done within a day so no hotel would be necessary.

I do hope that this happens soon. Mike at PC, please contact Roman to get these details finalized so we can call look forward to this challenge. If this takes place in Phoenix, I will be there to document if I can. If it is SoCal, I will try to attend as well as I work in San Diego Mon-Thurs.

Lets get behind both PC and ESS to make this happen. Enough with the talk and lets see some action!

Just my opinion!

[ThorPR]

+1

[bren335i]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Ahh yes, the now famous individual "custom tuning" claims that are floating around.

I agree these claims need to be explored further. (to verify or debunk them once and for all)

The concept of a "custom tune" on the E9x M3 for a specific set of engine performance mods is very perplexing to me...since the Siemens MSS 60 ECU features a target-based software algorithm that uses three parallel 32-bit microprocessors (and more than a dozen engine senors) to calculate the horsepower & torque of the S65B40 V8 engine in any gear, and at any rpm.

Since the basic software coding tables are designed by BMW to adapt on it's own (within a fixed preset target range), it's interesting to here how any tuner can claim they wrote a "custom tune" for a particular M3. (since the basic engine management software does not support a very narrow software programming methodology)

It will be interesting to here how this can be done, without completely ditching or re-writing the BMW factory software's basic architecture.

Implementing or re-writing a whole new software operating system on the factory ECU is not feasible for an aftermarket tuner. That would take years, and you would need Siemens help to accomplish that goal. This is completely out of the question, since both BMW OEM ECU suppliers (Siemens & Bosch) has to sign a non-disclosure agreement with BMW corporate.

So the ability to write a one-off "custom tune" for a single car is very interesting indeed.

Even if you could overcome all these obstacles, a "custom tune" is actually a less desirable path to take...since our target-based engine management software architecture, will actually allow the engine to work within a larger comfort zone. The ECU has the versatility to adapt to a variety of changes such as fuel quality or octane level, a dirty fuel filter, a dirty air filter, a dirty fuel injector on one or more cylinders, changes in air density due to weather or elevation, slightly fouled spark plugs or reduced ignition coil performance, erratic idle control valve performance, 02 sensor malfunctions, air mass sensor malfunctions, throttle position sensor malfunctions, VANOS camshaft sensor malfunctions, etc, etc, etc...

I can only imagine what type of engine related issues would arise from using any an unproven engine management software operating system, and how that would affect the engine long term.

I sure hope the one-off "custom tuning" claims turn out to be accurate, or there will be a lot of unhappy customers out there who shelled out extra cash for a unique "custom" tune for their car...only to find out it was just smoke and mirrors.

Can't wait to see the results of this showdown.

No offense, you are obviously not a tuner regardless of your affiliation to those in the "game."

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Lemans_Blue_M

Hey Mike,

My 'affiliation' extends no farther than my humble appreciation for how ESS operates their business model, their absolute insistence on getting it right the first time out of the box, their extensive in-house R&D and testing philosophy that applies to every retail product they sell, the fact that they only hire the best and the brightest, the fact that ESS would rather tune and market a product that advertises modest (conservative) gains, rather than at the extreme edges (where problems can crop up), their absolute attention to detail, their vast NA and FI experience, their excellent customer service, and finally their dedication and competence in tuning BMW cars over the past 15 years.

That's the extent of my 'affiliation' Mike.

Thanks for asking.

I think ESS does great work too and I agree with much of your post, but didn't they recently post a dyno that showed 600whp on the E9X at 6.5psi? That # doesn't seem conservative or modest to me Bro.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by TLud

Robert, based on your involvement with both sides, you are clearly a biased party, and that bias shows through in your posts (even the ones you've revised). Ironically, you've not so subtly accused PC owners of bias (maintaining silence about problems) despite your poll showing the contrary. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, even moderators, but you're not in the right position to arbitrate this little competition. I think you should step back and give Roman and Mike room to work out the best way to compare ESS's and Powerchip's products in a manner that is fair, enlightening to the public, and mutually protects the parties' proprietary information. That said, your input here is valuable and appreciated, and I don't mean to imply the opposite.

I think you make some excellent points, good to see Robert agreed to step back and let the two parties decide, I'm sure they will take into account the suggestions he's made.

[xxe92xx]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

To make it easy for Mike we will do the testing method he wants with one stock car. We are also very busy but we will make time for something as interesting as this test. Below is the test method Mike has proposed so we will agree to it.

1) 3 Baseline runs stock
2) Have ESS tune it
3) 3 Runs ESS Tune
4) Flash ECU Back to Stock
5) 3 Runs with Stock Again
6) Powerchip Tune
7) 3 Runs with Powerchip

At the end of the day all we request is that the timing and AFR's are recorded and shared with the public.

The reason we want all data shared is because we are aware of all the tricks used in this business to make power. On this car the most common method is to lean out the AFR's and to run a very agressive timing target. Both of these can make a little power on a dyno but they are unsafe for the motor. The way this control system works is it will always self correct on the fly. This is why custom tuning a stock car is BS. The only way around this is to set a target beyond what the car can adapt around. For example the MSS60 can advance timing or pull timing when needed to to make optimum, safe power. The problem is the ECU has adaptation limits. If you set the timing target higher than what the ECU can adapt down you can force the car to run advanced timing even when the ECU knows it is not safe and is trying to protect the motor. We simply want to make sure that the PC "custom" or standard tune does not use these unsafe tactics to make power. If the PC tune can make more power than our tune while running close to factory AFR and timing levels then we will be impressed. We know our AFR's are very close to factory and we also know our timing is very close to factory so we have no problem sharing this info with the public.

+1 AFR's and timing NEED to be recorded..since ESS is taking care of pretty much everything else

[jeff@autocouture]

Epic battle can't wait to see the results

[TheSt|G]

Eagerly looking forward to the results, best of luck to the both of you. I must say, PC would look quite bad now if they backed out of any part of this offered challenge, it is quite generous to them.

[jeff@autocouture]

^^^ I agree they have a full paid ticket except lunch lol they have to take it, especially considering ess is willing to go with all of there arrangments, if it doesn't go through there is defly something wrong going on, but eitet way if like to see the results as I'm looking to get my car tuned

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by Studntloan

^^^ I agree they have a full paid ticket except lunch lol they have to take it, especially considering ess is willing to go with all of there arrangments, if it doesn't go through there is defly something wrong going on, but eitet way if like to see the results as I'm looking to get my car tuned

We have included a free lunch for Mike in our offer

We have tried to make it as easy as we can on Mike. Usually the person doing the challenging makes the arrangements and picks up the expenses but we are willing to help him out. All he needs to do is take a pre-paid 1 hr flight over from LA and custom tune a car, he will be home in time for dinner. We will take care of everything else. We are looking forward to him coming out and doing this challenge. We have heard alot about the custom tune Mike has designed for this car and we want to see how it performs against our standard tune in a controlled, monitored test with all factors being equal. We also look forward to all engine data being shared so that customers can have a better understanding of ECU software and how it effects the performance and safety of the motor

[FStop7]

Does the ESS tune disable the CEL on cars with no front cats or HFCs?

[Trier Germany]

yes, They have a tune for catless exhaust

[M3Alpine]

this is getting exciting! In for some updates

[Nawaaz]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

We have included a free lunch for Mike in our offer

We have tried to make it as easy as we can on Mike. Usually the person doing the challenging makes the arrangements and picks up the expenses but we are willing to help him out. All he needs to do is take a pre-paid 1 hr flight over from LA and custom tune a car, he will be home in time for dinner. We will take care of everything else. We are looking forward to him coming out and doing this challenge. We have heard alot about the custom tune Mike has designed for this car and we want to see how it performs against our standard tune in a controlled, monitored test with all factors being equal. We also look forward to all engine data being shared so that customers can have a better understanding of ECU software and how it effects the performance and safety of the motor

I am extremely impressed by how professional and motivated you are in getting this event going, Roman. You and your company are certainly gaining my respect, that's for sure.

Please keep up your excellence!

[Eurotrash8]

Originally Posted by Nawaaz

I am extremely impressed by how professional and motivated you are in getting this event going, Roman. You and your company are certainly gaining my respect, that's for sure.

Please keep up your excellence!

+1

[J08M3]

This challenge can only be good for the entire community. Plus if any company has some secret variables, letting them out can only help everyone creating tunes push the envelop a little further.

[Ben335]

My last post got deleted not sure why, but I definitely hope PC steps up and does this. Much respect to ESS as they have done everything on their end to make this as easy as possible.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Rom3n

We have included a free lunch for Mike in our offer

We have tried to make it as easy as we can on Mike. Usually the person doing the challenging makes the arrangements and picks up the expenses but we are willing to help him out. All he needs to do is take a pre-paid 1 hr flight over from LA and custom tune a car, he will be home in time for dinner. We will take care of everything else. We are looking forward to him coming out and doing this challenge. We have heard alot about the custom tune Mike has designed for this car and we want to see how it performs against our standard tune in a controlled, monitored test with all factors being equal. We also look forward to all engine data being shared so that customers can have a better understanding of ECU software and how it effects the performance and safety of the motor

Roman,

I'm curious which shop/dyno do you plan on using for this challenge? And I do agree with Nawz, you have done an excellent job at ESS.

[saeedg48]

ahahah this is going to be tuns of fun! The thing to kind about is even if one company can produce more power then the other there's always the issue of reliability. They should test their current flash tunes and not another one that there going to make just for this purpose.