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      03-25-2019, 02:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by c1pher View Post
I am blessed enough to own two Porsche and the 911 is still aspirational for me. And it doesn’t matter which 911 you own, they are all iconic, even the fried egg headlight ones. The author of the article would probably like it if the 1967 911 were still being built today. He should just go buy one of those. And that’s the value of the brand as a sports car manufacturer.....you can easily still find them despite being a lower volume car.

Times change and car manufacturers evolve or die. The 911 has become the luxury GT and the Cayman is taking the place of the old 911.

I’m hoping to find a fairly well loaded 991.2 Carrera once the new 911s start rolling out. I will probably replace my Corvette with it.
Very True,

One thing that Porsche is doing and Mercedes and BMW should consider, is that they are restoring their classics and selling them at the dealers. You can find 60s, 70s, 80s P cars that were recently restored through their Atlanta PEC center for sell or you can have your own car restored by them. BMW and Mercedes each have amazing classics that would do well to be refreshed and on the road.
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      03-25-2019, 02:39 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neliconcept View Post
Very True,

One thing that Porsche is doing and Mercedes and BMW should consider, is that they are restoring their classics and selling them at the dealers. You can find 60s, 70s, 80s P cars that were recently restored through their Atlanta PEC center for sell or you can have your own car restored by them. BMW and Mercedes each have amazing classics that would do well to be refreshed and on the road.
Mercedes restores classics and sells them at their classic center in California. (I could be mistake)

chk out these independent firms:

https://www.mechatronik.de/en/engineering/

https://www.kienle.com/en/workshop.html
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      03-26-2019, 12:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by neliconcept View Post
One thing that Porsche is doing and Mercedes and BMW should consider, is that they are restoring their classics and selling them at the dealers.
Singer or Porsche themselves? New VIN or is someone at Porsche hunting for vintage vehicles with good bones? First I heard of this but I am all ears. I am absolutely interested in a vintage or period correct contemporary restoration but have no interest in those RicerWideBody abominations that look like something Gembella would design after watching Tokyo Drift.
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      03-26-2019, 02:40 PM   #48
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      03-29-2019, 08:43 AM   #49
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This whole premise of Porsche losing their way is just silly clickbait, as mentioned earlier. The end is always predicted to be near whenever anything changes at Porsche. Give me a break. The company does what it needs to do to ensure survival. They could have 10 SUVs in various flavors/forms, but as long as they offer a 911 and a lower level sports car, both available with a manual, I have no issues.

But the premise of this particular article is even more moronic---nothing substantial has even happened! Porsche has gotten into the game of stupid looking coupe SUVs and a couple of journalists are disappointed by some of the detailing of the upcoming 911. Wake me up when Porsche sports cars are unavailable with a manual and are electric-only.
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      03-29-2019, 11:08 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Singer or Porsche themselves? New VIN or is someone at Porsche hunting for vintage vehicles with good bones? First I heard of this but I am all ears. I am absolutely interested in a vintage or period correct contemporary restoration but have no interest in those RicerWideBody abominations that look like something Gembella would design after watching Tokyo Drift.
Porsche themselves. The PEC at Atlanta is one of the classic centers that is restoring the cars:

https://www.porschedriving.com/porsc...center-atlanta

Scroll down to Classic Factory Resto and you can get the information there.

And I don't blame you about Gemballa or TechArt or whatever riced out Porsche is out there. Singer does look good and aren't pushing the look too far our there but I agree, I'd love a 69 911 or 72 911T for my weekend surf car and a really nice 964 Turbo 3.6 to add as well.
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      03-29-2019, 11:30 AM   #51
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Ah, 3.6 Turbos.

[IMG]https://medias.spotern.com/spots/w64...1532336916.jpg[/IMG]
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      03-29-2019, 01:47 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neliconcept View Post
Porsche themselves. The PEC at Atlanta is one of the classic centers that is restoring the cars:

https://www.porschedriving.com/porsc...center-atlanta

Scroll down to Classic Factory Resto and you can get the information there.

And I don't blame you about Gemballa or TechArt or whatever riced out Porsche is out there. Singer does look good and aren't pushing the look too far our there but I agree, I'd love a 69 911 or 72 911T for my weekend surf car and a really nice 964 Turbo 3.6 to add as well.
i was referring to the rwb craze that is just gross. i don't get it but thank you for the link to the PEC classics. this is the first i am reading about this and want to research some more on the topic.
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      03-29-2019, 01:52 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 48Laws View Post
This article is entirely about BMW mascarading as Porsche.
Is that anything like masquerading?
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      03-30-2019, 04:56 PM   #54
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They don't make them like they used to.

They can't. No one would buy them.

My '98 has the same basic interior as a car from the 60s. It's loud and sometimes smelly. Buttons have weird labels and are placed in random spots. The old Porsches were quirky cars. It's amazing they got away with it for so long. Buyers have changed and they don't want that kind of car anymore.

Porsche is in business to sell cars and people are softer and fatter and spoiled. They sell what people want. BMW has already admitted as much the same - they've progressively dumbed down the steering because customers complained that they wanted less steering effort and more isolation with less feedback.
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Last edited by robotk; 03-30-2019 at 10:36 PM..
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      03-30-2019, 09:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
They don't make them like they used to.

They can't. No one would buy them.
There's truth to this. Everyone complains about how they're getting bigger, losing the raw feel, etc. but at the same time the majority of the market expects certain creature comforts in 2019. They're keeping up with the times. However, a Porsche GT car will still feel more raw than 99% of cars in its class. When you compare modern Porsche to classic Porsche, sure it feels like it's losing its way. But when you compare modern Porsche to the rest of the modern market I don't think they're losing a step at all.

The "end" will be if they go down the AMG/M rabbit hole and start diluting the entire lineup. Once I see a "Macan GT" or "Cayenne RS" then I'm done.
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      03-31-2019, 02:33 AM   #56
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The only legit point in the article was how the 911 has become huge and more of a GT car.
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      03-31-2019, 02:35 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post

Porsche is in business to sell cars and people are softer and fatter and spoiled. They sell what people want. BMW has already admitted as much the same - they've progressively dumbed down the steering because customers complained that they wanted less steering effort and more isolation with less feedback.
This ticks me off on a daily basis. Badge whores and techie nerds have left my favorite brand a shell of its former self.

It's not hard to identify who's driving a BMW for the perceived image. I look down on these people and won't apologize for it.
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      03-31-2019, 09:55 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
This ticks me off on a daily basis. Badge whores and techie nerds have left my favorite brand a shell of its former self.

It's not hard to identify who's driving a BMW for the perceived image. I look down on these people and won't apologize for it.
Yep. It's infuriating. This may have been posted before...

“We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs....There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.....My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers. Some drive 30,000 miles per year in their BMWs, including long trips at high speeds. So the strongest demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They seem to want more isolation.”

-BMW driving-dynamics expert Johann Kistler
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      04-02-2019, 11:12 AM   #59
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Porsche can sure survive a flop or two, no? Brands like that don't die easily.
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      04-02-2019, 11:57 AM   #60
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Porsche can sure survive a flop or two, no? Brands like that don't die easily.
Not really. The 928 nearly killed them. The 996 wasn't as bad, but certainly set them back. If they really bungled another 911, it would certainly give VW more control over their future.
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      04-02-2019, 11:23 PM   #61
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Having owned a couple of late model Porsche’s (991.1 C2S and 981.1 Cayman S), I think this Car and Driver piece is spot on. What were they thinking when the design team had a meeting gave the green light to the 992 interior? It is abysmal. The purists hate it for a variety of reasons. Non purists are left scratching their head about the cheap nibbin shifter and afterthought cup holder. Performance is great, but that is entry level for cars at this price point. And that price point is becoming ridiculous, particularly when options that should be standard are factored in.

Porsche has sadly become another cog in the VAG SUV wheel. I get it from a business perspective, they need to sell as many cars as possible in an effort to overcome the reparations of the emissions scandal and that means SUV’s rule. The growth of the Chinese market factors in also.

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      04-03-2019, 12:05 AM   #62
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he got close to answering his own question here

No analog speedo is a crime against all kids who may peer into a parked 911. All kids want to know how fast a car goes

the reason there are more safety systems in place now, the reason there are digital gauges instead of analogue, is because kids are the new target market, they don't peer into cabins, they watch vloggers on youtube

the enthusiast is a shrinking buyer demographic. the emerging wealthy millenials, especially in asian countries, represents the new market, they buy tech, and the manufacturers sell them security and hero driveability in said safety systems. majority can't drive a manual and have no desire to do so

if you're an old bloke lamenting over old cars, buy an old car before they are taken off the road due to new gov electric car policies

car manufacturers exist to turn metal and plastic into profit, and respond to current market shifts accordingly
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      04-06-2019, 04:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robotk View Post
Yep. It's infuriating. This may have been posted before...

“We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs....There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.....My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers. Some drive 30,000 miles per
year in their BMWs, including long trips at high speeds. So the strongest demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They seem to want more isolation.”

-BMW driving-dynamics expert Johann Kistler
I love that car companies at least let their engineers and internal designers be interviewed by the mass media to explain design decisions, sometimes VERY candidly. It solves many mysteries.

I don't think the main issue is losing the "raw" feel of driving. Yes, that's there, but the experience - a sporty car and enjoying the process and act of driving is more important - and than can be done with more dB, fewer dB, more NVH, less NVH. To me it's losing entire classes of cars and segments. Who's to blame for the SUV shift? The death of convertibles? Low gas prices? CAFE rules that encourage manufacturers to go SUV to build bigger cars that are less stringently monitored on the MPG front?

A huge generation of performance car fans is not being minted anymore. I think compared to simply a decade ago, the car culture is far, far weaker, and it isn't just a case of millennials not having enough money to buy cars, it's just that $1K on the digital world or $1K on a cell phone goes so much farther than $1K for 1/30th of a semi-nice car. With all the anti-car rhetoric out there cars are also culturally not "in" at all anymore. Drivers licenses among 16 year olds have fallen from something like 80% in the 80s or 90s to 40% today. Expect this trend to continue.

As for Porsche, they simply can't fight the market trends. The purist 718 may satisfy car magazine writers but one just has to look at BMW sales trends, seeing the X3 make up for the lost 2/4/6 series sales, and know what's going on (not a truly fair comparison given generational age, but still). And technology, stability controls, better platforms means that we don't have body-on-frame Ford Explorers who roll over all the time anymore from the 90s. I don't like SUVs either but everyone else does.

I also am not that into Porsche mainly because the $15K margin per car means less car for you. A nontrivial number of people who go after Porsche are after the badge, and purely driving dynamic wise, it does not excel enough.
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      04-06-2019, 04:47 AM   #64
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      04-06-2019, 06:30 PM   #65
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Disagree that new, younger, car enthusiasts are in short supply. I have passed the enthusiasm to my two adult offspring. I know several of my adult kids’ peers who are enthusiasts. I walked past a Lambo/RR/Ferrari dealer, and the test drive clients were younger than me.
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      04-08-2019, 03:50 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Disagree that new, younger, car enthusiasts are in short supply. I have passed the enthusiasm to my two adult offspring. I know several of my adult kids’ peers who are enthusiasts. I walked past a Lambo/RR/Ferrari dealer, and the test drive clients were younger than me.
Hey, that's great, but your kids and buddies' offspring do not represent the whole frakking world.

You need to get out of Indiana -- which is an active hotbed of classic-car enthusiasm but as rural-focused a state as any in the lower 50 -- and observe what is going on in larger cities, as well as many suburbs.

Kids always want three things:
- Technology
- What's new
- What helps them gain freedom

A generation ago, this meant vehicles more than it does now -- and a generation before that, it meant vehicles even more. Simply put, vehicles are not cutting edge to many kids now, certainly not 'new' to kids, and don't empower freedom the same way in this day and age of social media, online gaming, etc.

They are in short supply. Millennials are, as a general rule, not performance car enthusiasts -- and this is a global phenomenon. Not just a U.S. one -- a global one.
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