KERS, coming to a BMW road car near you!!!

[chicagobimmerboy]

Dont know where I read this but I just remembered it. If any of you are F1 fans then you know that thanks to Bernie and Max F1 teams now are making the optional KERS system for their cars. Apparently they were supposed to come to F1 for the 2009 season, but due to development issues its massivly delayed. At STR the KERS system set the factory on fire, and at BMW it electricuted one of the engineers and sent him flying backward 30 feet LOL

With that said, BMW or somone at BMW said that they want to bring this system to BMW road cars.

Anyone think this is maybe a bad idea? LOL F1 cars havent even had success with it. They are having problems storing the energy in compact hyper capacitors, the system discharges violently (which can be a problem for the driver and anyone near the car). What if one crashes? the crash crews at F1 races could get electricuted, and the driver as well.

I think this is amusing, the system may very well be the future (or maybe not) but at this point it just seems like a good way to kill your F1 drivers and your customers LOL

now who would like KERS on their F30 M3???? LOL

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by chicagobimmerboy

Dont know where I read this but I just remembered it. If any of you are F1 fans then you know that thanks to Bernie and Max F1 teams now are making the optional KERS system for their cars. Apparently they were supposed to come to F1 for the 2009 season, but due to development issues its massivly delayed. At STR the KERS system set the factory on fire, and at BMW it electricuted one of the engineers and sent him flying backward 30 feet LOL

With that said, BMW or somone at BMW said that they want to bring this system to BMW road cars.

Anyone think this is maybe a bad idea? LOL F1 cars havent even had success with it. They are having problems storing the energy in compact hyper capacitors, the system discharges violently (which can be a problem for the driver and anyone near the car). What if one crashes? the crash crews at F1 races could get electricuted, and the driver as well.

I think this is amusing, the system may very well be the future (or maybe not) but at this point it just seems like a good way to kill your F1 drivers and your customers LOL

now who would like KERS on their F30 M3???? LOL

We had a good debate on this on a couple of threads where I proposed they had to use big capacitors instead of batteries (since batteries are very inefficient).

I hope BMW ///M uses KERs....if they don't and they go with turbocharging, they are going to lose a lot of customers like me.

KERs was the one hope that would allow BMW to make a turbo engine behave like a naturally aspirated engine.

[ersin]

Here's a good summary.

[swamp2]

That ^ says the system is using flywheels to store the energy. Obviously this is consistent with the "K" in the acronym for Kinetic. Don't see anything about capacitors...

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by swamp2

That ^ says the system is using flywheels to store the energy. Obviously this is consistent with the "K" in the acronym for Kinetic. Don't see anything about capacitors...

I came up with the capacitor "idea". To goal of KERs to get around the weight inefficiencies of batteries. Also the limitations of battery based hybrids are the charging and discharge rates.....

There was an article that said F1 was indeed working on electric systems so my best guess was they would use super big capacitors instead of batteries since this was the only known technology that has the desired charging / discharge rates. I seem to recall the F1 system was supposed to deliver 50 hp over a few seconds and weigh something like 50 kg....this is well beyond any battery technology that we know of today.

Chicagobimmerboy's post seems to confirm BMW is heading off in this direction of using capacitors instead of inefficient batteriers.



BTW, KERs should also really help with braking performance

[footie]

I know I touched on this a while ago but since it been brought up again I thought I should provide the link.

http://www.torotrak.com/ (Check the 'What's New' section as well as the rest, interesting reading for geeks.)

05.06.07 - Torotrak and Xtrac expertise will help F1 teams develop new kinetic energy recovery system
Torotrak and Xtrac transmission expertise will help F1 teams develop new, highly efficient, mechanical kinetic energy recovery systems ... technology also applicable to road cars
5 June 2007

Toroidal traction drive specialist Torotrak plc and vehicle transmission design and manufacturing company Xtrac Ltd are pleased to announce that on 4 June 2007 they entered into a licence agreement to enable Xtrac to develop highly efficient and compact continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) for use in the new kinetic energy recovery systems (KERS) proposed for Formula One ("F1") motor racing.

In 2009, F1 is introducing new rules that will lower the environmental impact of the sport. Part of this is to recover deceleration energy that can be stored for acceleration. Xtrac will exploit Torotrak's full-toroidal traction drive technology for use in kinetic energy recovery systems within the motorsport industry, to assist its customers in meeting these new obligations.

Commenting on the co-operation between the two companies, Peter Digby, managing director of Xtrac, said: "The transfer of world-class transmission technology from Torotrak, combined with the added value of Xtrac's expertise in the design and manufacture of transmissions for motorsport - and with clear potential to feed the resulting technical solution back into mainstream automotive use - is a good example of what I believe FIA President Max Mosley had in mind when he announced that Formula One should embrace an energy efficient future and open up the world of motorsport to new manufacturers".

Dick Elsy, Chief Executive at Torotrak, added: "We are delighted to be working with Xtrac on this exciting new application of our transmission technology, to provide a highly efficient KERS solution for initial application in motorsport, but with a clear opportunity to apply the system in mainstream road cars to provide performance, economy and greenhouse gas emission benefits."

Background

Some of the new KERS systems under development will be mechanically based and will utilise a flywheel to recuperate, store and subsequently discharge a moving vehicle's kinetic energy, which is otherwise wasted when the vehicle is decelerated. The kinetic energy is stored during a braking manoeuvre and is then released back into the driveline as the vehicle accelerates.

The toroidal traction drive variator, being developed with Torotrak and using Torotrak's patented technology, is a central element in these mechanical flywheel-variator KERS systems as it provides a continuously variable ratio connection between the flywheel and the vehicle driveline, via the vehicle's gearbox. Torotrak has granted a licence to Xtrac to design, manufacture, assemble and distribute components or complete variator systems, which incorporate Torotrak's technology, to its F1 customers.

The innovative combination of a Torotrak variator - providing mechanical efficiency that should be in excess of 90 per cent - with a flywheel of advanced construction, results in a highly efficient and compact energy storage system. Whilst Xtrac will supply variator units to its customers, the flywheels for these energy recovery systems are being developed separately by the Formula 1 teams themselves and their specialist suppliers. Torotrak will provide the control system expertise.

Torotrak and Xtrac believe that the variator-flywheel solution provides a significantly more compact, efficient, lighter and environmentally-friendly solution than the traditional alternative of electrical-battery systems.

"The variator weighs less than 5kg in these applications and provides a high level of mechanical efficiency, enabling the overall mass of the mechanical KERS systems to be minimised," says Chris Greenwood, technology director at Torotrak. "This mechanical efficiency, combined with the variator's ability to change ratio very rapidly, helps to optimise flywheel performance."

The two companies consider that the system is applicable to other motor sports and everyday vehicles and see the potential for wider applications - particularly on high-performance road cars - as an aid to performance and also as a means of developing future products with reduced CO2 emission levels.

The system supports the current trend in powertrain design for engine downsizing, by providing a means of boosting acceleration, overall performance and economy independently of the vehicle's engine and without the need for complex electrical-battery hybrid architectures.

A CVT-controlled flywheel is particularly suited to stop-start driving situations when real-world fuel economy is often at its worst. In these conditions, the variator-flywheel system can assist the launch of a vehicle which has slowed down or come to a standstill, by utilising the kinetic energy stored in the flywheel. In heavily congested traffic, where a car is frequently stopped and restarted, the system can help alleviate the heavy fuel consumption and emissions of greenhouse gasses normally associated with these conditions.

For the F1 applications, the stored kinetic energy can be applied by the driver on demand whenever required - at a rate and for a time period set by the regulations - to boost performance for rapid acceleration. The device is particularly beneficial when exiting corners or for tricky overtaking manoeuvres.

"The mechanical efficiency, compactness and mass of the variator system is critical since it directly influences the size and the ability to package such as system into an F1 car, or into a road vehicle," says Adrian Moore, technical director at Xtrac. "The size, torque capacity and response of the unit is critical to take the full advantage of having a flywheel KERS system."

Notes

Torotrak is a world leader in the development of full-toroidal traction drive technology for use in automotive, truck, bus, off-highway and ancillary drive markets.

Xtrac specialises in vehicle transmission technology focussed on clients in the aerospace, automotive, defence, marine and motorsport sectors.

27/11/07 - Torotrak Announces Licence Agreement with Second Major F1 Team
Further to the announcement on 24 September 2007 by Torotrak Plc that a major Formula 1 (F1) racing team had become the Company's first customer for the mechanical KERS system, Torotrak are pleased to announce a further new licence agreement with a leading F1 team.

This second F1 team has entered into a licence agreement with Torotrak which will enable them to use Torotrak's full-toroidal traction drive technology in a mechanically based kinetic energy recovery system (KERS) from the start of the 2009 system, when F1 is introducing new rules that will lower the environmental impact of the sport.

The licence granted to this F1 customer will allow the team to design, manufacture and assemble its own traction drive system or, at its option, source its traction drive technology and hardware from Torotrak's existing partners.

Torotrak's technology will be used by the new F1 licensee in an efficient, compact, continuously variable transmission (CVT) unit. This is a central element in the mechanical flywheel-variator KERS system as it provides a continuously variable ratio connection between the flywheel and the driveline, via the vehicle's transmission.

The mechanical KERS system utilises the CVT and a flywheel to recuperate kinetic energy, which is otherwise wasted when a moving vehicle is decelerated, and to store and subsequently discharge that recovered energy to boost economy or performance of the vehicle.

This further licence agreement demonstrates the ever increasing confidence within F1 in the mechanical KERS system based upon Torotrak's full-toroidal traction drive technology, which has been reinforced by Torotrak and its partners, Flybrid Systems and Xtrac, winning the Professional MotorSport World "Engine Innovation of the Year Award‟ on 6 November 2007 in Cologne for the mechanical KERS.

It also highlights the use of Torotrak's technology to meet the objective set out by Max Moseley, the FIA president, of F1 developing technology that is directly relevant to improving the performance and fuel efficiency of road cars.

Dick Elsy, Chief Executive at Torotrak, stated: “A second major F1 team recognising the benefits of the mechanical KERS system and utilising its ability to contribute to improved performance reinforces the growing belief that our mechanical system is the most efficient KERS option for F1. It further supports the opportunity for acceptance of Torotrak's technology for use in mainstream road cars to provide improvements in performance, fuel economy and greenhouse gas emissions.”

The innovative combination of the Torotrak variator, which provides mechanical efficiency in excess of 90 per cent, with a flywheel of advanced lightweight construction, results in a highly efficient and compact energy storage system.

The mechanical KERS system utilises flywheel technology to recover and store a moving vehicle's kinetic energy which is otherwise wasted when the vehicle is decelerated. The energy is received from the driveline through the Torotrak CVT as the vehicle decelerates, and is subsequently released back into the driveline, again through the CVT, as the vehicle accelerates. The FIA have defined the amount of energy recovery for 2009 season as 400kJ per lap giving the driver an extra 80hp over a period of 6.67 seconds.

Compared to the alternative of electrical-battery systems, the mechanical KERS system provides a significantly more compact, efficient, lighter and environmentally friendly solution.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by footie

I know I touched on this a while ago but since it been brought up again I thought I should provide the link.

http://www.torotrak.com/ (Check the 'What's New' section as well as the rest, interesting reading for geeks.)

Yes.... The only notable difference is Southlight brought up F1 using electrical and not mechanical based KERs systesm.... If it is electrical it seems it is likely they will use capacitors instead of batteries.

[southlight]

Like T says, BMW Motorsport is using an electric KERS and not an mechanical one like developed by Torotrack. I don't know which F1 team will be using mechanical KERS. Any information on that, Footie?

The problem in Jerez was caused by "capacitive coupling". In case anybody is interested in some more details here's a statement:
http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressc...uesmann-ef.doc

BTW: Only a "small amount of energy" was transferred, so the mechanic wasn't in danger at all, nor was he "flying backwards 30ft". No need to be pathetic here.

Best regards, south

[footie]

I haven't a clue but they do have two teams on board and one is a major one.

Sorry I should have worded this better, one is a front runner (don't know which) and the other is just behind.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

Like T says, BMW Motorsport is using an electric KERS and not an mechanical one like developed by Torotrack. I don't know which F1 team will be using mechanical KERS. Any information on that, Footie?

The problem in Jerez was caused by "capacitive coupling". In case anybody is interested in some more details here's a statement:
http://www.press.bmwgroup.com/pressc...uesmann-ef.doc

BTW: Only a "small amount of energy" was transferred, so the mechanic wasn't in danger at all, nor was he "flying backwards 30ft". No need to be pathetic here.

Best regards, south

Thanks South!

This is a very minor issue that would necessarily get fixed in production cars since they go through much more rigorous safety testing.

The issue was essentially stored energy from the KERs system "bleeding" on the normal 12V bus that controls all the other car's electronics.

I think the production level issues will be something like:

• How to isolate the KERs system electrically to prevent this bleedover effect
• How to discharge the KERs system when parked
• How to get government approval...imagine a random discharge into the ground at a gas station?

[knifegun]

In my latest Roundel machine, there is a small article on KERS and the F1 BMW Sauber team which indeed specifically states they will use big capacitors instead of batteries for efficiency purposes. And since the car is already 50 kg under the normal wieght limit with the current balast, the additional weight of the equipment and capacitors will not be an issue.

[swamp2]

Guys, I am still confused the article link posted by Ersin says,

The sophisticated hybrid system uses a high-speed flywheel to store energy

A flywheel system is purely mechanical at least in regards to the way the energy is stored - a very fast rotating wheel. There was much discussion on actually using such energy storage techniques to power a vehicle.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Guys, I am still confused the article link posted by Ersin says,



A flywheel system is purely mechanical at least in regards to the way the energy is stored - a very fast rotating wheel. There was much discussion on actually using such energy storage techniques to power a vehicle.

The article is wrong on that point. BMW said that they're developing an electronic version of KERS, not a mechanical solution. Funny that the German source quoted in this article got that right. Is that called lost in translation?


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by knifegun

In my latest Roundel machine, there is a small article on KERS and the F1 BMW Sauber team which indeed specifically states they will use big capacitors instead of batteries for efficiency purposes. And since the car is already 50 kg under the normal wieght limit with the current balast, the additional weight of the equipment and capacitors will not be an issue.

Bastards they stole my idea!

I wonder if we will see grounding straps in the production cars....BMW will give it some wierd long German name but it would be just a metal strap to dissipate power....

[synclastica_86]

Unless you are tracking your cars, how would you benefit from KERS? As far as I am concern, the energy stored in braking is only good for abt 50 extra ponies for 7-8 secs a lap, and they brake alot in F1. Honestly, how often do you slow your M3 from 190 to 45?

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

Unless you are tracking your cars, how would you benefit from KERS? As far as I am concern, the energy stored in braking is only good for abt 50 extra ponies for 7-8 secs a lap, and they brake alot in F1. Honestly, how often do you slow your M3 from 190 to 45?

KERS would benefit road cars in performance, driveability and fuel economy.

• In stop and go traffic, you could use the power to start the car moving and move for a fixed period of time and when you slow down again, it could partially recharge the system....reducing the need for gas
• If the rumors that BMW is going turbocharging for future M cars, KERs could easily provide the added acceleration to mask any turbo lag....once the turbos are fully spun up, all is good.
• On launches, KERs can add lots more power.

KERs is not free, it is not going to help with WOT acceleration beyond the initial boost in torque. In fact, on WOT, after KERs has discharged its energy into the drivetrain, it should get out of the way to let the engine work....it should only intervene on deacceleration / brake assist.

[corbz]

To answer the question above, Williams is the only known constructor who will be using a mechanical KERS system for next year.

The teething problems that the F1 teams are experiencing at the moment are not un-common to any new technology introduced to a formula race class. Anyone who thinks KERS is some wacko space aged technology, only needs to look at road cars which are on the market right NOW that use exactly the same principles in terms of electrical regeneration systems. The actual KERS regulations in F1 for 2009 are actually very restrictive in the amount of energy that can be stored but this will progressively be increased in year intervals. Where F1 will push the boundaries with this technology starting from next year will be in the weight, packaging, cooling and reliability of these systems in racing conditions with high amounts of charging and discharging and keeping this safe in the event of high G maneuvers and impacts. This is a huge engineering challenge the teams have to overcome, and the aspects such as low weight and tight packaging will be directly transferable to road cars.

F1 is a dangerous sport by nature, in fact there is far more energy being stored in an f1 fuel tank than there will be with a KERS system for next year but as has been seen through persistence and engineering on fuel tanks they are no longer an issue as they were sadly in the old days. With today’s unprecedented level of engineering and technical ability of the teams, i have no doubt that the system will have the bugs ironed out and will be safe before any team releases it into the track.

And to T bone in 2013 the draft regulations propose F1 engines moving to 1.5L v6's with twin turbo chargers with two forms of energy recovery. From the turbos which would be a constant recovery system, as well as the energy recovery from brakes, that will be seen next year. They are expecting to produce over 200kw of power just from Recovery systems, power which would have otherwise been ‘wasted’. Awesome technology and no doubt for marketing reasons to align themselves with F1, M cars will also have a form of KERS and turbochargers. Prepare yourselves for that new wave of M car.

[BRDHNTR]

I am not worried with the direction M is going with the M3. I can see great progress from the e36 to the e46 and even more progress on the e9X.

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by T Bone

KERS would benefit road cars in performance, driveability and fuel economy.

• In stop and go traffic, you could use the power to start the car moving and move for a fixed period of time and when you slow down again, it could partially recharge the system....reducing the need for gas
• If the rumors that BMW is going turbocharging for future M cars, KERs could easily provide the added acceleration to mask any turbo lag....once the turbos are fully spun up, all is good.
• On launches, KERs can add lots more power.

KERs is not free, it is not going to help with WOT acceleration beyond the initial boost in torque. In fact, on WOT, after KERs has discharged its energy into the drivetrain, it should get out of the way to let the engine work....it should only intervene on deacceleration / brake assist.

A system to help with stop-go traffic is already being used in Hybrids, but the difference is the source of that electrical energy. A hybrid has its batteries charged by braking and the engine driven alternator. The KERS, on the other hand, only uses energy recovered from braking. An F1 cars does a lot more braking than road cars, and if F1 cars (with their many high speed stops) only gains 7-8 secs of boosts per lap, I doubt that the system will have any use on road cars.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by corbz

To answer the question above, Williams is the only known constructor who will be using a mechanical KERS system for next year. [...]

Thanks buddy!


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by corbz

And to T bone in 2013 the draft regulations propose F1 engines moving to 1.5L v6's with twin turbo chargers with two forms of energy recovery. From the turbos which would be a constant recovery system, as well as the energy recovery from brakes, that will be seen next year. They are expecting to produce over 200kw of power just from Recovery systems, power which would have otherwise been ‘wasted’. Awesome technology and no doubt for marketing reasons to align themselves with F1, M cars will also have a form of KERS and turbochargers. Prepare yourselves for that new wave of M car.

Thanks for your post...very informative!

I think you contributed another part of the puzzle...I was not aware the 2013 regs allowed turbo charging....this would explain BMW ///M's branch into turbocharging.

Some fun speculation here....assuming they wouldn't try to get energy from the turbo compressors since this would adversely affect turbo lag....it seems there is lots of energy to be had on the wastegate side.... The new F1 cars are going to sound very funny and farty.

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

A system to help with stop-go traffic is already being used in Hybrids, but the difference is the source of that electrical energy. A hybrid has its batteries charged by braking and the engine driven alternator. The KERS, on the other hand, only uses energy recovered from braking. An F1 cars does a lot more braking than road cars, and if F1 cars (with their many high speed stops) only gains 7-8 secs of boosts per lap, I doubt that the system will have any use on road cars.

More likely energy recovery from the flywheel / coasting versus braking since road cars don't brake that much.

Battery based Hybrids are extremely inefficient because of the mechanical to electric to mechanical cycle.....and of course, the ability of battery to charge and discharge quickly.... I wonder what type of capacitor technology they are going to use....or new battery technology. This is neat.

Maybe I haven't lost faith in ///M yet.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Maybe I haven't lost faith in ///M yet.

Best regards, south