The future of Porsche vs. BMW

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by photogS

I made a move from Cayman S to M3, but only because I needed a more practical car.

I love M3, but at first it felt like I was driving a Buick. CS was so nimble, so fun to drive. M3 can never be like that, not even close. Indeed, when you compare M3 to a CS it feels like a brick.
I'd go GT3 if I could but with a 2 year old it won't happen soon, as I need a back seat from time to time.
Since you don't have to worry about practicality go for it!

If the M3 feels like a brick, I can't imagine what a CS would feel like. I'm still many many years away from having to worry about a kid, so it's temping to jump ahead and go for a GT3.

Originally Posted by shift@red

Porsche's generally hold value pretty well...better than most other cars out there, but nothing really does these days.
An 06 cayman S will run you low to mid 30's. An 08 (2 years newer) m3 will generally run low to mid 40s. In another 1.5-2 years the 08s m3s will be just as cheap so depreciation is similar in regards to those two models.

You are right on pushing sales of the 911, Pan, and Cayenne more. The reason is due to the margin on them is massive. Porsche has the highest profit margins in the auto industry.

That makes sense. I'm not overly fixated on depreciation, but it would be nice for the car to be worth something 4 years after ownership, so that I can sell the car and buy something else.

Originally Posted by devo

In response to the OP's last question: I'd choose a used GT3 any day over a new Cayman. The GT3 is many leagues above the Cayman, more fun, sexier looking and infinitely better sounding. The .2 3s are unadulterated sex.

I'm obviously still quite a ways from replacing my car, but what's your feel on reliability? I am really hesitant about buying a used performance car - particularly one like the GT3, which is usually tracked and pushed hard by its owners. That is probably the only thing holding me back, since a well-optioned CS/ Cayman R is pretty close in price to an '07-'08 GT3.

My other dilemma is one of 'ownability'. I live in the city, so owning a GT3 would be like walking out of my office with a Hublot on my wrist
But on a more serious note, ground clearance is an issue. Garages here have fairly steep grades, and there are plenty of road obstacles in the city that require at least a few inches of ground clearance to get through. I think that the 'front nose-raising' equipment would be a must.

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

I think he was talking to me.

You're right, my mistake

[Sephiroth]

If you go Cayman S you gotta get this exhaust:

[008]

I tried my 08 Cayman S in on my 11.5 M3. 3 years and about 20k miles I got 71% of what I paid new minus ttl. Car needed new tires, service, etc. I was pretty happy with the trade in value.

[Kyoshi71]

Cayman = Cant afford a Carrera

Get a used 911 before a Cayman.

[devo]

Originally Posted by pman10

If the M3 feels like a brick, I can't imagine what a CS would feel like. I'm still many many years away from having to worry about a kid, so it's temping to jump ahead and go for a GT3.




That makes sense. I'm not overly fixated on depreciation, but it would be nice for the car to be worth something 4 years after ownership, so that I can sell the car and buy something else.



I'm obviously still quite a ways from replacing my car, but what's your feel on reliability? I am really hesitant about buying a used performance car - particularly one like the GT3, which is usually tracked and pushed hard by its owners. That is probably the only thing holding me back, since a well-optioned CS/ Cayman R is pretty close in price to an '07-'08 GT3.

My other dilemma is one of 'ownability'. I live in the city, so owning a GT3 would be like walking out of my office with a Hublot on my wrist
But on a more serious note, ground clearance is an issue. Garages here have fairly steep grades, and there are plenty of road obstacles in the city that require at least a few inches of ground clearance to get through. I think that the 'front nose-raising' equipment would be a must.

The GT3 is probably one of if the most reliable super cars on the market. The Mezger engine (Hans Mezger that is) has quite a racing heritage (It is Mezger not Metzger which it is often referred to as). A search will provide some interesting reading.

I depends on what you want for daily driving but I can tell you that I could daily drive this car easily. I have no need for that over-priced lift either. You could buy 25 replaceable lips for the price of the lift. If you need it to enter a hard angle in a parking garage that's a different story. I have scraped mine twice and you can barely tell where I struck it. You just have to account for the clearance problems as you would with the lift.

As far as the clutch and ride. I think my 335 and my previous turbo's clutches are too soft. The ride in the .2 GT3 is wonderful. The suspension is so dialed in that normal mode feels more compliant over the sharp stuff than my 335 with those stupid run-flats yet more firmly planted. Sport mode is wickedly planted yet not too stiff. The first thing I do when I fire up the beast is press the sport mode suspension button and the sport exhaust button for each and every drive.

[saeyedoc]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Anyreal true Porsche enthusiast respects the fact that the cayman S is one of the best cars in the world and offers superior driving dynamics over anything under 100K.

Lurk around some of the P- forums. There are many who went from Cayman to 911 and regretted it. Cayman gets respect from those who know their cars, poseurs just buy a 911.

[devo]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

Lurk around some of the P- forums. There are many who went from Cayman to 911 and regretted it. Cayman gets respect from those who know their cars, poseurs just buy a 911.

What Porsche should do, and is rumored to btw, is drop the base Carrera and give the Cayman the power it needs. I can see a 360 hp Cayman with a LSD and a 410 hp 991 C2S.

[Dave07997S]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Cayman = Cant afford a Carrera

Get a used 911 before a Cayman.

LOL

Although the Cayman is an awesome car, I actually used the back seats in my 997S.

Dave

[devo]

Originally Posted by pman10

If the M3 feels like a brick, I can't imagine what a CS would feel like. I'm still many many years away from having to worry about a kid, so it's temping to jump ahead and go for a GT3.




That makes sense. I'm not overly fixated on depreciation, but it would be nice for the car to be worth something 4 years after ownership, so that I can sell the car and buy something else.



I'm obviously still quite a ways from replacing my car, but what's your feel on reliability? I am really hesitant about buying a used performance car - particularly one like the GT3, which is usually tracked and pushed hard by its owners. That is probably the only thing holding me back, since a well-optioned CS/ Cayman R is pretty close in price to an '07-'08 GT3.

My other dilemma is one of 'ownability'. I live in the city, so owning a GT3 would be like walking out of my office with a Hublot on my wrist
But on a more serious note, ground clearance is an issue. Garages here have fairly steep grades, and there are plenty of road obstacles in the city that require at least a few inches of ground clearance to get through. I think that the 'front nose-raising' equipment would be a must.

997 Caymans and Carreras (C2 and 4s) do not have the same type engines as the GT cars (2, 3, RS and turbo), which are true dry sumps with Ti connecting rods, etc... In some cases tracked Carreras have had scored cylinders (starvation) whereas GTcars do not even after being flogged for thousands of miles at the track.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

Lurk around some of the P- forums. There are many who went from Cayman to 911 and regretted it. Cayman gets respect from those who know their cars, poseurs just buy a 911.

Dumbest post on the thread. Congrats.

[devo]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Dumbest post on the thread. Congrats.

Ha! How true.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by devo

997 Caymans and Carreras (C2 and 4s) do not have the same type engines as the GT cars (2, 3, RS and turbo), which are true dry sumps with Ti connecting rods, etc.

^this.. And in knowing it, isn't it a trip when Clarkson says you pay more and get less

Originally Posted by devo

.. In some cases tracked Carreras have had scored cylinders (starvation) whereas GTcars do not even after being flogged for thousands of miles at the track.

Never heard of this though.

[008]

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Cayman = Cant afford a Carrera

Get a used 911 before a Cayman.

BMW= Can't afford a Porsche.

[Kyoshi71]

Originally Posted by 008

BMW= Can't afford a Porsche.

Post #39 Correction:

THIS instead is the Dumbest post on the thread.

[devo]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Very true. They are a 100% true dry sump as opposed to the intergrated dry sump of the rest of the engines.
One thing though devo, the 997.2 turbos no longer have the GT1 engine but in fact have the M97.



I wish they would drop the base 911. Makes no sense to me.

I would love to see them go big with the cayman though. Cayman S with Porsche Motorsport suspension, 997.1 GT3 engine, CF buckets, etc as a limited production car.

Correct on the .2 turbos aka 9A1 engines. I did mean the .1s only. Good catch. The 9A1s could be better than the Mezger. Only time will tell.

The next (991) GT3, and RS, GT2 will no longer have the Mezger. All will be some variant of the 9A1, aka "integrated dry sump" in Porsche speak. The last is either the GT2 RS or the rumored 3RS w/500 hp (this summer) as the Mezger's swan song.

[Joonsup]

I love porsches but don't know much about them. I hear all this talk about the GT3 and for a while I thought it was the best porsche out there under the 500K GT?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the ranking from least to greatest GT3, 911 Turbo, GT2? I dunno

[devo]

Originally Posted by joonsup

I love porsches but don't know much about them. I hear all this talk about the GT3 and for a while I thought it was the best porsche out there under the 500K GT?

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the ranking from least to greatest GT3, 911 Turbo, GT2? I dunno

No.

I had a 997 turbo and prefer my .2 GT3.

Different strokes:
GT2: RWD (contemporary raw) turbo
turbo: AWD (more subdued aka civilized) turbo with less power, more weight than above.
GT3: NA hi-revving power, RWD. Handling and noise to die for.

Oh, basically a RS trumps a GT3, although it is more in your face and track oriented.

As Saeyedoc pointed out, the GT2RS should argueably be at the top of the heap. Basically a GT2 with 90+ more hp than the GT2 weighing in less than the GT3. Stupid fast, 7:18 or so ring time. Don't have the 0-whatever times but to 150 is insane.

[saeyedoc]

911T<911 Turbo S< GT3< GT3RS< GT2< GT2RS
The positioning of the Turbo's is debatable. The GT's are more track oriented. The 911 Turbo and Turbo S are more expensive than the GT3, but many feel the GT3 is the better drivers car.

[devo]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

911T<911 Turbo S< GT3< GT3RS< GT2< GT2RS
The positioning of the Turbo's is debatable. The GT's are more track oriented. The 911 Turbo and Turbo S are more expensive than the GT3, but many feel the GT3 is the better drivers car.

I would have to mostly agree with the above. Very recently a race driver did a review of the wickedly stupid fast in your face GT2 R freakin S and actually picked the GT3 as the more fun, engaging choice.

[Joonsup]

Originally Posted by saeyedoc

911T<911 Turbo S< GT3< GT3RS< GT2< GT2RS
The positioning of the Turbo's is debatable. The GT's are more track oriented. The 911 Turbo and Turbo S are more expensive than the GT3, but many feel the GT3 is the better drivers car.

ahhhhhh ok i will use this as a reference from now on. lol.

[Echo M3]

Originally Posted by devo

The GT3 is probably one of if the most reliable super cars on the market. The Mezger engine (Hans Mezger that is) has quite a racing heritage (It is Mezger not Metzger which it is often referred to as). A search will provide some interesting reading.

I depends on what you want for daily driving but I can tell you that I could daily drive this car easily. I have no need for that over-priced lift either. You could buy 25 replaceable lips for the price of the lift. If you need it to enter a hard angle in a parking garage that's a different story. I have scraped mine twice and you can barely tell where I struck it. You just have to account for the clearance problems as you would with the lift.

As far as the clutch and ride. I think my 335 and my previous turbo's clutches are too soft. The ride in the .2 GT3 is wonderful. The suspension is so dialed in that normal mode feels more compliant over the sharp stuff than my 335 with those stupid run-flats yet more firmly planted. Sport mode is wickedly planted yet not too stiff. The first thing I do when I fire up the beast is press the sport mode suspension button and the sport exhaust button for each and every drive.

I think you've flat-out sold me on picking up a GT3 in the future . Thanks for the informative post. Perhaps I can convince the dealer to let me do a dry run and see if clearance will be an issue. when that time comes.

Also, a big thanks to the others who posted before you, too. Based on this information, and barring any unforeseen circumstances, my next car will be a Porsche. Which one I choose, you'll have to stay tuned to see.