ESS VT3 - LC built engine failure in 2,000 miles

[biglare]

For the life of me I don't understand why people do not listen to the people that put their S/C kits together, much less a VT3 kit which is more complex. Just like the guy that bought my M3 with the VT2-625 kit on it and proceeded to put 87 octane in the car and hammer it. ESS and I both told him not to put that octane in the car and to not run the car above 3500rpms, but he didn't listen and boom. I don't understand why these people act surprised when the end result is exactly what they were warned about.

Also, for that matter WTF is up with people that want to get a S/C tune from some so-called tuner that was not involved in any way shape or form with developing the S/C kits? This IMO is completely ridiculous and asking for problems too.


Well Happy New Year and Happy Monday!

[///mawana]

Originally Posted by US///M3

It's kind of disappointing that ESS didnt include all the gauges that they felt were crucial for safe operation, the op paid good money for the build.

I personally feel both sides share some blames, 4 months is a really long time for ESS not to be able to conduct all the testing they needed and properly finish the work.

Originally Posted by US///M3

I honestly think ESS wasn't very clever about this build, if you believed the op's car needed the AFR, boost, fuel pressure Gauges, while you had the car in your posession for 4 months for an engine replacement + SC,that would've been a good time to do it. Why not include the gauges in the price instead of sending him to go get them on his own and installled in Russia?

I mean you are the specialists.

+1

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

I honestly think you have not been very clever about this process. If you send us an email on Saturday, I would at least wait until Monday for a reply before publically bashing us for something that is not our fault and claiming we ignore you. It would most likely make the process of getting us to assist you easier I would think..

If you send us your block with crank/rods/pistons as is I will have it sleeved and fitted with new pistons and return it back to you at our cost. Then you will have to verify function of both fuel pumps and verify correct fuel pressure operation. This time do NOT drive the car hard without a working AFR gauge, and if it goes over 12.5:1 at WOT get off the throttle at once!

And to remind you again, there are no warranties whatsoever on the VT3. Everything related to this system is entirely your own risk!

Send the block to :

ESS Tuning
6150 W Gila Springs Pl #4-6
Chandler, AZ 85224
USA

It always gets heated from both sides when something as this happens. Nice of you to fix the block.

[Harpua]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

... Nice of you to fix the block.

No kidding.

[M-powerMode]

First off Respect to ESS and AJ !!!

Sounds like the OP was over confident and anxious to get his car back.
Custom builds take time and much patience is needed during this process, if 3-4 months is what you were quoted easily add 1-1.5 months.

Beating on the car without proper working gauges was plain dumb on the OP's end , it's up to you to care for your car regardless.

Anyhow good luck with car !

[Bavarian Beast]

Seems more than fair. I do agree though that if the gauges are that critical a component ESS should consider including them and just make it a term that gauges aren't covered in any warranty situation.

[Someone?]

I would say it sounds like errors where made on both side's, But seems way more where made on the OP's side.
He's really should feel fortunate ESS is willing to do anything, If he wanted "The fastest M3 in Russia" he should have known alot more right of the bat,IMO. I mean 4 engines WTF he obsessively doesnt learn lessons well.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by US///M3

I honestly think ESS wasn't very clever about this build, if you believed the op's car needed the AFR, boost, fuel pressure Gauges, while you had the car in your posession for 4 months for an engine replacement + SC,that would've been a good time to do it. Why not include the gauges in the price instead of sending him to go get them on his own and installled in Russia?

I mean you are the specialists.

Seems rather straightforward to me:

Originally Posted by AJ@ESS

3. I specifically recommended the EAS system for a clean install. We do not stock this setup in Norway, and we are not in the business of selling gauges to avoid the possible support on these. We leave it up to the customer to chose and install what he prefers. We just inform you that it is a requirement to properly monitor the engine under high load, and to not take the engine to high load before this is installed.

Originally Posted by biglare

Also, for that matter WTF is up with people that want to get a S/C tune from some so-called tuner that was not involved in any way shape or form with developing the S/C kits? This IMO is completely ridiculous and asking for problems too.

That is *completely* irrelevant to this thread. This has been hashed out already, don't litter this thread with garbage like that. Find the appropriate thread and stick that mess over there.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Beast

Seems more than fair. I do agree though that if the gauges are that critical a component ESS should consider including them and just make it a term that gauges aren't covered in any warranty situation.

AFR gauges are not a product we build or retail for our production supercharger kits as they are not necessary, they are an optional add on. There are plenty of gauge options for customers to install if they choose. This customer was not running a retail product. If this was a retail product sold as a package to the public that we supported and we required the customer to monitor vehicle data at all times then we would offer it. In this case it was up to the customer to properly outfit and monitor his vehicle if he intended to drive it 180+ mph with a highly complex, powerful, custom one off high boost setup that has a custom fuel delivery system. This includes more than just an AFR gauge. The customer was instructed he needed to purchase and install the gauge before operating it under heavy load. He made the decision to order the gauge but felt it was fine to drive it hard before it arrived despite our warning and the vehicle giving him continued signs of a potential hardware issue.

[Longboarder]

Hope this gets resolved soon and the motor gets back in OPs car in time for the weather to get better. I love watching those Moscow Unlimited vids and would really like to see what a VT3 can do there!!

[325rider]

"AFR gauges are not a product we build or retail for our production supercharger kits as they are not necessary"

This makes sense, as if anyone buys a VT5xx kit they can run the "sh!t" out of it given they operate the car correctly (allow warmup, use the right oil/fuel/etc… which are warranty friendly instructions PROVIDED by ESS) and NEVER worry about a gauge setup…
Point being -> there isn't a correlation between ESS neglecting to install gauges and peoples engines blowing, because they are not contracted to install gauges, and the OP did not specify you MUST install gauges and if you do not you are at fault. And if he did, I'm sure it isn't in writing so you snooze you lose.

"If this was a retail product sold as a package to the public that we supported and we required the customer to monitor vehicle data at all times then we would offer it."


Makes sense. The buyer was informed and didn't install gauges before driving. A CUSTOM build is just that, custom, and he didn't opt in for gauges as part of the "custom build" either directly or indirectly. He should have ordered gauges to ESS for his car, or had ESS do that for him, or NEVER driven it without gauges.

Its like having a race motor built and not connecting a oil/water temperature sensor, then blaming the engine builder if you overheat and fry your motor in a race… I don't get OP's actions.

LASTLY, using how much time it took them to build it is IRRELEVANT to what YOU did. Whether they are 2-3 months late if they did not COMPLETE the project, regardless of their time schedule, then the issue should have been legal action or otherwise to get your property back and wrap up or un install the work, not a get out of jail free card if you picked up your car unfinished. This simply isn't ESS neglect., and OP should have let ESS finish, regardless if ESS was delayed. When supply is short the consumer must WAIT as ESS is not in charge of BMWs parts department. Simple as that.

Good luck opie (All my opinion and Im open to productive debate)

[M-powerMode]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

Seems rather straightforward to me:

That is *completely* irrelevant to this thread. This has been hashed out already, don't litter this thread with garbage like that. Find the appropriate thread and stick that mess over there.

Bro I think it's completely relevant ....
The message in his post says don't
" don't alter something out of its design "
Poor fuel = Boom
Over boost = Boom
Having someone retune a perfectly tuned SC'd car =Boom

Doing all the above is a ticket to no warranty or support as the manufacturer clearly states the do's and don't !

But ..... ESS stepped in and made their valid points and still decided to help the guy out ! Keep in mind he blew all 3 motors not following directions he was given...

Just saying ....

[325rider]

Originally Posted by M-powerMode

Bro I think it's completely relevant ....
The message in his post says don't
" don't alter something out of its design "
Poor fuel = Boom
Over boost = Boom
Having someone retune a perfectly tuned SC'd car =Boom

Doing all the above is a ticket to no warranty or support as the manufacturer clearly states the do's and don't !

But ..... ESS stepped in and made their valid points and still decided to help the guy out ! Keep in mind he blew all 3 motors not following directions he was given...

Just saying ....

this this this x .33

[Bavarian Beast]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

AFR gauges are not a product we build or retail for our production supercharger kits as they are not necessary, they are an optional add on. There are plenty of gauge options for customers to install if they choose. This customer was not running a retail product. If this was a retail product sold as a package to the public that we supported and we required the customer to monitor vehicle data at all times then we would offer it. In this case it was up to the customer to properly outfit and monitor his vehicle if he intended to drive it 180+ mph with a highly complex, powerful, custom one off high boost setup that has a custom fuel delivery system. This includes more than just an AFR gauge. The customer was instructed he needed to purchase and install the gauge before operating it under heavy load. He made the decision to order the gauge but felt it was fine to drive it hard before it arrived despite our warning and the vehicle giving him continued signs of a potential hardware issue.

Makes sense. You guys are pros and I wasn't trying to poke you, just give an opinion. I have no doubt your company is highly professional and again, I think the deal you offered is above and beyond what is required.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by M-powerMode

Bro I think it's completely relevant ....
The message in his post says don't
" don't alter something out of its design "
Poor fuel = Boom
Over boost = Boom
Having someone retune a perfectly tuned SC'd car =Boom

Doing all the above is a ticket to no warranty or support as the manufacturer clearly states the do's and don't !

But ..... ESS stepped in and made their valid points and still decided to help the guy out ! Keep in mind he blew all 3 motors not following directions he was given...

Just saying ....

No, it isn't. You don't seem to know the history behind the statement. It didn't say "Having someone retune a perfectly tuned SC'd car", i.e., the car was running right and then the tune was tweaked, resulting in failure. His statement is regarding acquisition of a base tune for use w/the car. That statement was made to further discredit BPM for providing a base tune for ESS s/c'ers, nothing more, nothing less. You're relatively new, but if you do a search, (unless it was removed by the mods) there was a post a few months ago about a guy that had BPM provide the tune for his 2nd owner kit. Turned into a debacle. The people that choose to go that route are fully aware that there is no hardware support from ESS if the engine shoots a rod out of the side of the block. Hence, no relevance.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

AFR gauges are not a product we build or retail for our production supercharger kits as they are not necessary, they are an optional add on. There are plenty of gauge options for customers to install if they choose. This customer was not running a retail product. If this was a retail product sold as a package to the public that we supported and we required the customer to monitor vehicle data at all times then we would offer it. In this case it was up to the customer to properly outfit and monitor his vehicle if he intended to drive it 180+ mph with a highly complex, powerful, custom one off high boost setup that has a custom fuel delivery system. This includes more than just an AFR gauge. The customer was instructed he needed to purchase and install the gauge before operating it under heavy load. He made the decision to order the gauge but felt it was fine to drive it hard before it arrived despite our warning and the vehicle giving him continued signs of a potential hardware issue.

As a car guy if you thought you'll be helping a loyal customer by including an AFR,a fuel pressure and a boost gauge needed in a high boost application in the build while you had the car for months and He'll pay for the labor and parts , why not do it?

3 superchargers, that's a lot of money and you cant even install the gauges needed on the last build that the customer was goin to pay for anyway.

Why some of your kits come with intercoolers and why not just have your customers get the ic's installed on their own?

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by US///M3

As a car guy if you thought you'll help a loyal customer by including an AFR,a fuel pressure and a boost gauge needed in a high boost application in the build while you had the car for months and He'll pay for the labor and parts , why not do it?

3 superchargers, that's a lot of money and you cant even install the gauges needed on the last build that the customer was goin to pay for anyway.

Why some of your kits come with intercoolers and why not just have your customers get the ic's installed on their own?

As far as I'm concerned, they're the shop. They can decide what they do/don't want to install. I.E., they dictate the terms. Last time I checked, they have right of refusal as to what they do/don't do.

As far as your last question, that's simple: to safely achieve boost levels advertised, i/c's come with the kits that require them.

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by whats77inaname

As far as I'm concerned, they're the shop. They can decide what they do/don't want to install. I.E., they dictate the terms. Last time I checked, they have right of refusal as to what they do/don't do.

As far as your last question, that's simple: to safely achieve boost levels advertised, i/c's come with the kits that require them.

This one off kit required the gauges per ESS.

[325rider]

Originally Posted by US///M3

This one off kit required the gauges per ESS.

WHAT IS YOUR POINT. The customer did not buy gauges or pay them to install gauges…. AT ALL
ESS Stated you SHOULD run gauges with this custom supercharger. ESS never said you CANNOT run without gauges, they said DO NOT run without gauges. They did not physically, mentally, or otherwise state the kit is not physically operable without a gauge, nor did they say it was "illegal" or "warranty voiding" because there is NO warranty.

What is your point. You are a troll and should stop posting repetitive info. The thread can die now… ESS sold a no warranty kit. Kit went boom.

OP should go back to the bank and get cash for a new motor.

peace out bye

[stevens]

Not to cause any more agro, but if I had a supercharged or any form of forced induction car for that matter, id be fitting an AFR regardless, hell id even consider one on my N/A just for the fancy lights!.

But to have 3 Supercharger levels and 3 engines all go pop because of fueling, its insane to think he never had one on the first let alone the last.

More money than sense and I dont think this willl be the last engine of his to go pop personally.

[tommy94gt]

Originally Posted by US///M3

As a car guy if you thought you'll be helping a loyal customer by including an AFR,a fuel pressure and a boost gauge needed in a high boost application in the build while you had the car for months and He'll pay for the labor and parts , why not do it?

3 superchargers, that's a lot of money and you cant even install the gauges needed on the last build that the customer was goin to pay for anyway.

Why some of your kits come with intercoolers and why not just have your customers get the ic's installed on their own?

Is it possible they didn't have gauges readily available in Finland? Or perhaps they didn't want to put their name on another company's product and trust their high $ build on that company's gauges?
The intercooler is necessary to safely run a V2 kit which is an off-the-shelf kit making the intercooler part of that "out-of-the-box" kit.

[AJ@ESS]

Originally Posted by stevens

Not to cause any more agro, but if I had a supercharged or any form of forced induction car for that matter, id be fitting an AFR regardless, hell id even consider one on my N/A just for the fancy lights!.

But to have 3 Supercharger levels and 3 engines all go pop because of fueling, its insane to think he never had one on the first let alone the last.

More money than sense and I dont think this willl be the last engine of his to go pop personally.

First two engines did not get damaged from lack of fuel, they were simply overboosted and eventually gave out. The first engine ran 67000 miles with substantial overboost on a 625 setup (9+PSI), and the second engine was massively overboosted to 11+PSI for a drag race event which is a sure engine killer. The customer chose to do this on his own despite us telling him exactly what happens if he does. All that mattered to Sergei was to win the event, at the expense of a S65 engine. A lot of customers are like this, they do not care about consequences of overboosting when warned by us. Until it actually blows up that is, then it is usually someone elses fault even if we told them up front exactly what would happen.

ESS does not normally build custom setups at all, but we have occasionally done special jobs for some race customers like Sergei and Drew. Sergei contracted us to supply a built VT3 spec S65 engine, and install it in his car along with a new high capacity fuel system and a 13-14PSI pulley configuration along with matching software. We did exactly that and told him there are no warranty stated or implied and that every aspect of the new engines operation must be monitored when running it hard and to not run it hard until this equipment was installed. We do not sell or supply/install gauges at all, most heavy race customers at this level have their own preference of what they like and want to use. We simply do the engine job they specify exactly as they specify and the rest is up to them. If they explode their engine/transmission or driveline down the road, that is entirely their own problem on a custom race build.